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02/15/2007 12:00:05 PM · #576 |
Originally posted by nsoroma79:
Some of them even attend church on a regular basis. How are they so bad? |
They aren't. Certainly no more so than any other sinner. Which includes everyone I know, and I suspect everyone reading this as well.
Sin is not the evil, it is the embracing and wanton act of sin that is the problem. At least from my perspective.
No flame intended, however I question the claim of "bisexuallity" and your bio of a young mother of 2, married with a wonderful husband. Certainly none of my business, however I wasn't asking either. No judgement here, just a caution. Your life/lifestyle is between you and yours, and of course in my opinion, your creator.
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02/15/2007 12:04:01 PM · #577 |
Originally posted by Flash:
Originally posted by nsoroma79:
Some of them even attend church on a regular basis. How are they so bad? |
They aren't. Certainly no more so than any other sinner. Which includes everyone I know, and I suspect everyone reading this as well.
Sin is not the evil, it is the embracing and wanton act of sin that is the problem. At least from my perspective.
No flame intended, however I question the claim of "bisexuallity" and your bio of a young mother of 2, married with a wonderful husband. Certainly none of my business, however I wasn't asking either. No judgement here, just a caution. Your life/lifestyle is between you and yours, and of course in my opinion, your creator. |
Exactly! Everyone is guilty of sin in one form or another! It makes no one better than anyone else!
In question about me... just know that everything is not as it seems on the outside. Which is my big thing here. People seem to be this way or that way... but everyone harbors deep secrets and has skeletons to deal with. I seem to be this way or that way... but get to know me and I am quite different IRL. My thing is, get to know people before you pass judgement. :)
And... just to add. I'm not embarrassed, or ashamed of the fact that I am "bi". It's who I am, and I am not afraid to be me. I don't go posting it on my bios, or in my info... but when addressed, I will stand up and say it proudly.
Message edited by author 2007-02-15 12:06:57.
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02/15/2007 12:11:58 PM · #578 |
Originally posted by Louis:
...on the other hand, is it completely wrong to assume that all Christians include the Old Testament as part of their religious text? No. (Former Christian speaking here.) And are there parts of the OT that all Christians use to describe their faith? Yes, for example, the notion that the 10 commandments fundamentally codify "God's law". The only conclusion then is that some, if not most, Christians pick and choose those parts of the OT that best suit any given need. |
FYI, The Ten Commandments are still applicable because they are included in the New Testament.
1) "You shall have no other gods before me. - Matthew 4:10
2) "You shall not make for yourself an idol in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, but showing love to a thousand generations of those who love me and keep my commandments. - Matthew 4:10, 1 John 5:21
3) "You shall not misuse the name of the LORD your God, for the LORD will not hold anyone guiltless who misuses his name. - Matthew 5:33...
4) "Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy. Six days you shall labor and do all your work, but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the LORD your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your manservant or maidservant, nor your animals, nor the alien within your gates. For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy. - Hebrews 4:9
5) "Honor your father and your mother, so that you may live long in the land the LORD your God is giving you. - Matthew 19:18
6) "You shall not murder. - Matthew 19:18
7) "You shall not commit adultery. Matthew 19:18
8) "You shall not steal. - Matthew 19:18
9) "You shall not give false testimony against your neighbor. - Matthew 19:18
10) "You shall not covet your neighbor's house. You shall not covet your neighbor's wife, or his manservant or maidservant, his ox or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbor." Romans 13:9 |
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02/15/2007 12:31:18 PM · #579 |
Originally posted by RonB:
[quote=LouisFYI, The Ten Commandments are still applicable because they are included in the New Testament.... |
You know what I mean. Will you force me to cite chapter and verse those parts of the OT generally accepted by Christians and not specifically mentioned in the NT? Even finding one supports what I've said. |
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02/15/2007 01:12:35 PM · #580 |
Can I just ask one question?? Why does everything in the rant forum turn into a biblical debate? Ugh
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02/15/2007 01:21:16 PM · #581 |
Originally posted by nsoroma79:
Can I just ask one question?? Why does everything in the rant forum turn into a biblical debate? Ugh |
Cuz it's the only interesting thing going on in here. :P |
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02/15/2007 01:24:33 PM · #582 |
Originally posted by Louis:
Originally posted by RonB:
FYI, The Ten Commandments are still applicable because they are included in the New Testament.... |
You know what I mean. Will you force me to cite chapter and verse those parts of the OT generally accepted by Christians and not specifically mentioned in the NT? Even finding one supports what I've said. |
It would certainly support what you said if you could cite just one verse from the OT along with evidence that it is "generally accepted by Christians and not specifically mentioned in the NT". Obviously, this in relation to your charge that Christians use the Old Testament to "ram their ideological agenda down the throats of the masses" - we're not talking about historical narration, prophesy, or personal observations.
But I won't force you to do anything.
On the other hand, if you DO cite specific examples without supportive evidence, then I will consider it an invitation for review, for challenge if no evidence is provided, and for rebuttal if I find that the allegation is untrue.
Thus my response concerning the Ten Commandments. |
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02/15/2007 03:26:21 PM · #583 |
Originally posted by Louis:
Originally posted by nsoroma79:
Can I just ask one question?? Why does everything in the rant forum turn into a biblical debate? Ugh |
Cuz it's the only interesting thing going on in here. :P |
Apparently so *sigh*
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02/15/2007 05:31:35 PM · #584 |
Originally posted by nsoroma79:
Can I just ask one question?? Why does everything in the rant forum turn into a biblical debate? Ugh |
Because after extensive debate you usually come to a consensus of the facts, or get to the core of peoples belief systems. And for many that is a religious one based on faith and it can't be bothered by the facts.
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02/15/2007 09:10:38 PM · #585 |
Originally posted by nsoroma79:
Can I just ask one question?? Why does everything in the rant forum turn into a biblical debate? Ugh |
Because *many* persons of strong religious faith feel compelled to enunciate their belief in an unseen being, and also seem to derive some chemically / biologically induced euphoria through self-validation of their as-yet unproven beliefs, as well as pushing said beliefs upon others (to the point of some submission).
To voice my opinion:
- I prefer to see two persons who care for one another, rather than injure someone.
- If one person would like to accept the financial responsibility of providing health insurance benefits to their partner (instead of coming from my tax dollars), why should I care?
- Two persons should be allowed to enter a civil union at will and, if it happens to benefit them in a way which is mutually beneficial (and otherwise legal), then why should gender be an issue?
Regardless of the reader's opinion of my opinion, I wish no ill-will toward any of you, and wish only the best for you & yours.... also, thanks to each of you for voicing your thoughts, as this has been an enlightening experience.
Message edited by author 2007-02-15 21:18:03. |
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02/15/2007 10:40:51 PM · #586 |
Originally posted by nsoroma79:
Can I just ask one question?? Why does everything in the rant forum turn into a biblical debate? Ugh |
I find it interesting that neither response to Lorrie's question has actually addressed the question. Instead both respondents appear to have used the question as an excuse to make negative comments about "religious" people.
Let me point out two things - one obvious, and one not so obvious.
1) The Bible is not common to all religions. There are literally billions of religious people who do not base any part of their religion or doctrine on the Bible. Lorrie specifically asked about "biblical debate" not "religious debate", so I don't understand why the respondents felt compelled to respond, but not to respond to the question that was asked.
2) The very first mention of the bible in this thread was a general statement by tommy_t that "some people don't like it [ gay marriage ] because the Holy Bible says its wrong". I can't speak for everyone, but I don't think that that statement is the one that started a debate about the Bible. I think that biblical debate started when Mousie, an apparently anti-Bible person, threw down the gauntlet as it were by saying, "...the Bible says a lot of freaky stuff...". I find that derogatory comments like that about the Bible do tend to initiate Biblical debate. In general, I find that biblical debate is usually initiated by non-Christians.
Now, to answer Lorrie's question: I believe that many threads in the rant forum turn into a biblical debates because a) those who believe in the Bible are not opposed to sharing why the Word of God is foundational to their world view, and b) those who are non-Christian ( e.g. agnostic, atheist, anti-bible, anti-Christian, anti-religious, anti-God, non-Christian, etc. ), are drawn to biblical debate as a moth is drawn to the flame. They find it irresistible. I believe that they hope that through debate they can find an overwhelmingly compelling reason to finally put the claims of the Bible to rest. Not finding it, they continue to engage in debate hoping that someday they will.
I believe that that is why many rant threads evolve into biblical debate.
Message edited by author 2007-02-15 22:43:17. |
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02/15/2007 10:56:07 PM · #587 |
Originally posted by RonB:
I believe that they hope that through debate they can find an overwhelmingly compelling reason to finally put the claims of the Bible to rest. Not finding it, they continue to engage in debate hoping that someday they will. |
My dear sir,
you presume too much.
[Edited: How could I have mispelled a word in such a short sentence??!]
Message edited by author 2007-02-16 09:12:28. |
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02/15/2007 11:01:08 PM · #588 |
Originally posted by nsoroma79:
Can I just ask one question?? Why does everything in the rant forum turn into a biblical debate? Ugh |
Even three year old threads :-D
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02/16/2007 12:11:08 AM · #589 |
Originally posted by RonB:
Lorrie specifically asked about "biblical debate" not "religious debate... |
Forgive me for speaking for her, but I'll bet Lorrie meant "religious", even while saying "biblical". You understand that the majority of respondents here, by their very upbringing and the culture that surrounds them, equate the two. You seem to want to obfuscate, even while appearing to elucidate.
Originally posted by RonB:
"...the Bible says a lot of freaky stuff...". I find that derogatory comments like that about the Bible do tend to initiate Biblical debate. |
Charming vernacular aside, the bible does say a lot of freaky stuff. You can't escape its inherent freakiness. Warning: reader discretion advised. The following opinion may be offensive to some people. Aside from a few gems here and there about goodwill and the universal tenets that make a good life livable, it's chock full of blood, war, torture, infanticide, patricide, fratricide, matricide, and all manner of murder and horror you wouldn't want any kid to be exposed to in a sane world. If you can disconnect yourself from it for even a moment of rational overview, you might glimpse that this 2,000-4,000 year old document has absolutely no connection to the way human beings live their lives today. And just to imbue this point of view with dripping irony, the only real moral code is to be summed up in something similar to what Jesus said: that the best life is lived treating others as though you loved them as dearly as members of your immediate family. But it doesn't take the oppressive rule of Christianity for two millenia for an intelligent person to figure that out; nor was he the first to come up with that gem. The slaughter of animals, the tiresome history of millenia-old wars, the habits of middle-eastern astrologers, and like minutiae, are nothing more than dreary idles that have no more bearing on people's lives than the Lord of the Rings trilogy.
Originally posted by RonB:
I believe that they hope that through debate they can find an overwhelmingly compelling reason to finally put the claims of the Bible to rest. Not finding it, they continue to engage in debate hoping that someday they will. |
Well, you would be devastatingly wrong if you were to apply that presumption to me for example. Personally, I have no need to "disprove" it, "put its claims to rest", or otherwise present any "contrary" world view to it. I could care less. :) I am quite satisified with how I've personally digested it over the course of the last four decades, the first two of which were solidly in your camp as it were.
I just like to talk about things that people have strong views on. You can make enemies in a snap, sure, but you can also learn a great deal of things, and it just feels so darn good to be right about something. ;) Plus, the mental gymnastics required for trying to keep up with someone as sharp as yourself is very refreshing. |
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02/16/2007 01:57:55 AM · #590 |
Momentary interruption:
Louis, your prose is as good as your photography. And some of us find the Lord of the Rings trilogy even more relevant than other sources being discussed here. But some of us are simply weird. :)
I now return you to your regularly scheduled rant. Carry on. |
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02/16/2007 02:05:02 AM · #591 |
Originally posted by Melethia:
... some of us find the Lord of the Rings trilogy even more relevant than other sources being discussed here. |
I was going to say something like that, but you said it better : ) |
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02/16/2007 07:08:33 AM · #592 |
Originally posted by Louis:
If you can disconnect yourself from it for even a moment of rational overview, you might glimpse that this 2,000-4,000 year old document has absolutely no connection to the way human beings live their lives today. And just to imbue this point of view with dripping irony, the only real moral code is to be summed up in something similar to what Jesus said: that the best life is lived treating others as though you loved them as dearly as members of your immediate family. But it doesn't take the oppressive rule of Christianity for two millenia for an intelligent person to figure that out; nor was he the first to come up with that gem. |
There may be some truth to this if one were to take the Bible as strictly "literal" in every writing/sentence. To me, that would be a mistake. Applying figurative understanding to some passages, would make it timeless in its application. This is how "Christ" taught. Figuratively and through parables. These were intended to speak directly to the people of the day, but with application for the millenia.
Some "believers" have a fire to spread the "good news" and feel compelled to convert non-believers. This is a mistake in my opinion as 2 examples lead me to this conclusion. 1) Christ himself, the Son of God, performing miracles in the midst of the multitudes and even raising the dead, could not "convert" all non-believers. 2) His instruction to his disciples is clear to me; go to a town (seek out non-believers), share your message (tell them about the Gospels), and if they close the door on you, then stomp the dust off your sandals as you leave that town (believing is a choice, a free will choice, that must be done by the individual). Thus, I am not (nor is any other "believer") saddled with the responsibility to "save" anyone. We are responsible for sharing the "word". The rest is up to you. Many will choose to be the scattered seed along the path. Some will choose to walk the path. All have the opportunity to Seek, Knock and Ask.
I believe it important to see the Bible as a Historical text first, secondly a Philosopy, thirdly a collection of Literature, and lastly as a Religious foundation.
Its application, to me, is timeless.
sp edit
Message edited by author 2007-02-16 07:58:52.
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02/16/2007 08:28:56 AM · #593 |
RonB - I would appreciate your pointing out to me, exactly, what you assumed from my post that was untrue (well, you used the word "negative"... spin does not change reality). Besides, while being religious is possible without the bible, I do NOT think it possible to follow / worship the bible without being religious.
Louis - you really should author SOMETHING, then just include one of your SP's for the jacket... nicely stated points you've made.
Milo - My thoughts exactly.
Good morning everyone - Let the games resume!
((I still think this thread should remain on-topic, and all this talk of religion doesn't answer the legal / government question of "whats wrong with gay marraige...")) |
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02/16/2007 08:52:13 AM · #594 |
Originally posted by Flash:
Thus, I am not (nor is any other "believer") saddled with the responsibility to "save" anyone. We are responsible for sharing the "word". The rest is up to you. |
I understand all of this, but you're too connected to it to perceive that what you've said smacks of deep-seated hubris. When people demonstrate their accute inability to inhabit the world outside their faith, or when they show their devotion to it if you like that better, all I feel like saying is: Please stop applying your narrow world view to my life. Your attempted interpretation of how I live my life in light of a set of documents that mean nothing to me is actually insulting. |
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02/16/2007 08:53:43 AM · #595 |
Originally posted by Melethia:
And some of us find the Lord of the Rings trilogy even more relevant than other sources being discussed here. |
I was actually hoping this would start a fresh rant. :P |
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02/16/2007 09:07:43 AM · #596 |
Originally posted by rossbilly:
((I still think this thread should remain on-topic, and all this talk of religion doesn't answer the legal / government question of "whats wrong with gay marraige...")) |
The question is intricately involved with religion - it is predominantly for reasons of religion (historically as well as sociologically) that marriage has been formalised in a manner that excludes gay people.
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02/16/2007 09:30:41 AM · #597 |
Originally posted by Flash:
The Torah had 613 commandments for Jews. Joseph Good
The Bibles New Testament has 2.
1. Put the Lord your God FIRST in everything you do
2. Love others as you love yourself |
Are the commandments "love God and one's neighbour," and to "love one's neighbour as oneself" overriding commandments? Is there a specific exclusion for gay people?
I must admit, after watching last week's episode of Top Gear, the hill to climb in some parts of the US is obviously rather steep - funny in a slightly scary way! - (video here).
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02/16/2007 10:00:21 AM · #598 |
Originally posted by rossbilly:
RonB - I would appreciate your pointing out to me, exactly, what you assumed from my post that was untrue (well, you used the word "negative"... spin does not change reality). |
The phrase
"Because *many* persons of strong religious faith...seem to derive some chemically / biologically induced euphoria through self-validation of their as-yet unproven beliefs"
struck me as being an intentionally negative portrayal of religious people who make their views known. |
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02/16/2007 10:10:28 AM · #599 |
That would be the point of using asterisks around the word *many* - please don't read more than was written...
Regardless, my point was an attempt to answer a young woman's question, not be mischevious... |
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02/16/2007 10:12:37 AM · #600 |
Originally posted by Louis:
Please stop applying your narrow world view to my life. Your attempted interpretation of how I live my life in light of a set of documents that mean nothing to me is actually insulting. |
No insult intended.
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