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02/10/2007 11:55:38 AM · #1 |
ok, i have to say this, and maybe i'm being a little nit picky and will be torn apart by those who do not agree, but i do not mean this to be mean at all. i see this site as a place to learn and further your photographic skills...as it has everyone that's participated. but i've noticed quite a few people that apparently have a fan club going around here that enter photos of themselves on a regular basis, or of certain things that they are known for, and i really find that to be rediculous. is it just me? when i'm voting on a picture, and i know without a shadow of a doubt whos photo that is...i find that unfair, mainly because i've seen pictures w/ 6+ scores in the middle of unbelievably outstanding pictures in the high ratings because of who it is or who they are known by.
once again, i do not mean this to offend. but where the anonymity in the voting if you set your photo up with the hopes to get a higher score b/c your fans know you, or recognize your overly-used prop / backdrop/ etc?
i guess the way i see it is that's not a way to grow as a photographer, but a way to play the statistics game, but is that fair? i'm not griping b/c i think my photos are better, that's not the issue.
i just think it's great that Pedro, one of my favorite photographers on this site, thinks he sold out for his Nude ribbon winner, when all he did was take a subject and make her look good (she already looked good, but you know what i mean). that's not selling out at all to me. putting yourself in multiple challenges as a self portrait, or putting a prop / background in that makes a lot of people know who you for that, that's selling out to me. i see that as a lack of originality. i have a lot of respect for everyone on this site, it's just i've seen this going on over and over again, and it really struck a wrong chord with me.
i was just wondering if anyone else was bothered by this. self portraits have their place, they're artistic...they're beautiful, and challenging. but overuse for the sole purpose (as it seems) to get a higher score really gets to me.
i hope i haven't offended, for this is just my opinion. offending is not my goal
-jon rowe |
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02/10/2007 12:01:43 PM · #2 |
I think this has been talked about before, and many people, who you might otherwise think as part of the "fan club", have said that even they may recognize friends and so on, they do their best to vote fairly. That is, on the quality of the photograph, not necessarily the personality of the photographer. It's best to trust them on that.
As well, everyone eventually has a "style". Sometimes the style is recognized. If you read through the in-challenge comments of some of those with the most ribbons, you'll see people correctly guessing whose work they're viewing. Surely these photographers aren't actively seeking personal recognition, they're just executing their style. Just think of the familiar props and faces as just another style. :) |
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02/10/2007 12:10:58 PM · #3 |
Hmmm, I have no idea what you are talking about... ;-)
But, entering self-portraits (even with a fan club) isn't guaranteed success. You get slapped by voters as much as you get the high votes. Even Judi's hot nudes get nailed hard (pun intended) in voting.
Notice that I do my share of SP's, but only one of them is in my top five finishes and IT was for an SP challenge.
Message edited by author 2007-02-10 12:12:54.
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02/10/2007 12:13:51 PM · #4 |
I have no problem with this. It is inconsequential compared to the brilliance and beauty that the voters miss in every challenge. Now, that is a sad thing.
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02/10/2007 12:18:52 PM · #5 |
| Many of us use what we have. As far as models go, I have a handful - me, my wife, my kids, my cats and kermit. I dont have a bunch of other choices. Some people recognize them but I dont think its a gauranteed solid vote. My scores on my models range from the 4's to the 7's. I dont really think I would call this selling out. I shoot what I can with the resources available to me in the most creative way I can. And personally I look forward to the day that my work gets recognized because of the style and not the model. I am not sure if I have figured out my style yet so when that day comes I know I will have arrived. |
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02/10/2007 12:20:51 PM · #6 |
Originally posted by timfythetoo:
And personally I look forward to the day that my work gets recognized because of the style and not the model. I am not sure if I have figured out my style yet so when that day comes I know I will have arrived. |
Then you'll probably want to change it :-)
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02/10/2007 12:24:17 PM · #7 |
Originally posted by fotomann_forever:
Then you'll probably want to change it :-) |
Well if people recognize it followed by the words "Wow - look at this peice of crap. It must be Tims" then yes I will try to change it. ;) |
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02/10/2007 12:33:52 PM · #8 |
If you hang around this site long enough, recognizability may be unavoidable. I go out of my way to find new models, props, and ideas. I mix up titles, styles, color/B&W, etc. but commentors still knew these were mine. What am I supposed to do?
  
I've had low scores with subjects that could have been recognizable, and so has Librodo, Heida, Larus, Joey Lawrence and Kiwiness, so I'm not sure there's any real benefit anyway. |
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02/10/2007 12:48:28 PM · #9 |
I think Jeroew has a point to a certain degree. If you have a favorite photographer, or if you are a fan of a photographer, you would naturally want to rate their photos higher. The question is to what degree does this affect their score? I don't think anybody has won a ribbon because their work was recognized by fans. The photo may be given a higher score, but not to the point of any significance. I might add, that sometimes my favorite photographers throw me a curve. They come up with something that I never would have imagined. I later find out that I gave the photo a high score. Another reason why they are my favorites.
Lastly, I thinking that if a photograper repeatedly puts himself/herself in the photo for a higher score, it would only work on a short term basis. People will recognize what the photographer is trying to do, and give the photo a lower score. Just my opinion. :-) |
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02/10/2007 12:59:25 PM · #10 |
Originally posted by scalvert:
If you hang around this site long enough, recognizability may be unavoidable. I go out of my way to find new models, props, and ideas. I mix up titles, styles, color/B&W, etc. but commentors still knew these were mine. What am I supposed to do?
I've had low scores with subjects that could have been recognizable, and so has Librodo, Heida, Larus, Joey Lawrence and Kiwiness, so I'm not sure there's any real benefit anyway. |
i meant to put you into my original paragraph with pedro. i have seen many of your images and thought they were yours, not because they're the same (because none of them are), but of how unique they are. you have a way of thinking outside the box, but enough to make it incredibly interesting and meet the challenge perfectly each time.
i understand the whole "style" thing where you recognize someone's style, and that's amazing. it's unique to the person, like Joey Lawrence for example. His work's amazing, and sometimes capable of knowing which shot is his to an extent. i don't see anything wrong with that. but if joey took a picture of his face, over and over again...and put it up against the same background everytime, that's what i'm talking about. (which he doesn't)
i really hope this hasn't been taken the wrong way, because the ones that have commented are all i respect and think highly of. i really hope i havn't offended.
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02/10/2007 01:00:44 PM · #11 |
If you are a true artist, you will know what your strong points are, and your weak points are.
A photographer is no differant.
A good photog will know his subject matter. Know how to show the image. Present it with a qualatative manner.
Every photog is going to have their individual "look". It does not matter that they may have similarities to other photogs, that is irrelivent.
If you know your subject, and how your equipment will perform, and how the light will affect, then a growing crowd of fans will get to know the qualities of that photog, and in turn recognize that photog.
There are alot of photogs on this site that can be recognized immeadiatly for their "signature" qualities.
It is essential as an artist to know what is possible, and what is not within the realm of your abilities. When this is established, then your "fan base" will follow.
Photography is inherently statistical, therefore, so is your imagery, therefore, so is this site.
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02/10/2007 01:00:55 PM · #12 |
Originally posted by rick13601:
sometimes my favorite photographers throw me a curve. |
Like this?
Originally posted by rick13601:
...if a photograper repeatedly puts himself/herself in the photo for a higher score, it would only work on a short term basis... |
There's no better example than  Graphicfunk, and a quick scan of his scores demonstrates that voters do judge the photo rather than the photographer. |
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02/10/2007 01:09:30 PM · #13 |
I have to imagine that for every fan club there is an anti-fan club, where a recognizable shot can become Troll fodder. There is no good without evil. 10's are meaningless without 1's.
Personally I don't believe in trolls, but human nature is an easy read.
The logo states dpchallenge "a digital photography contest", contest being the keyword. Most compete with the best of intentions but there may be one or more that may not give the competition the credit that is due. Being able to recognize those photogs that place near the top frequently just makes it easier to single those out.
Just stating that entering a recognizable shot may not always be a good thing.
Again personally, I don't give a ratz azz about who or what is in the shot. Every challenge there are good, bad and ugly shots. I vote the quality (composition, technique and what the shot says to me) of photo. If I happen to recognize an individual or style I can still vote fairly.
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02/10/2007 01:17:53 PM · #14 |
My self portraits only score well if I a NOT recognizable! lol
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02/10/2007 01:24:27 PM · #15 |
I don't know if you're including me in your "short list" of recognizable locations/themes, but I sometimes take a rap for sunsets/sunrises/marshes/skiffs and, now, HDRI post processing making my work recognizable. I use the same locations repeatedly (the weather here is mercurial and these locations are less than 10 minutes from my house), and it's fairly easy for people to spot my entry when I do this.
On the other hand, while it's true that my top, say, 20 images tend to be recognizably "mine" due to location and style, if you look past the top layer of the 243 challenges I have entered, you will see two things:
1. I shoot a LOT of "other stuff", it just doesn't score as well.
2. I shoot a LOT of "recognizable" images that fail to score especially well.
So from my perspective, anyway, I really don't see a problem. The voters like certain things, some members are very adept at doing that certain thing, what can we do about that anyway?
I mean, ESPECIALLY in Shannon's case: He's the demented stage manager, the props guy, of DPC. He creates imaginary universes for our challenges. He's nearly alone on-site in his ability to do so. Can ANY of you who read this even IMAGINE telling Shannon "You can't do this anymore, it's too YOU!"?
Timfy the Too is busily creating his own version of parallel universe as well. It's one in which his "alter ego" (who happens to be himself) makes constant, cameo appearances. Alfred Hitchcock used to put himself into every movie he made. Quentin Tarantino does something similar but more extensive. Of course, everybody knows they are in their own films, and for the matter of that when films enter competitions it's known who directed them, isn't it?
Or how about somebody who moves somewhere specifically because s/he wants to do landscape photography in that particular environment? I mean, those are all perfectly valid approaches to creating art.
Why do so many people think it's so important to be "surgically anonymous" in DPC? It's simply not possible, and I'm pretty sure it wouldn't change anything if we were...
R.
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02/10/2007 01:45:35 PM · #16 |
Like others on this thread and site, I often pack my camera with me everywhere I go. I tend to shoot pics relating to my line of work; my Entrance entry is the same beast that appeared in Oxymoron. Ditto for Battle of the Sexes and Your Occupation. I am single, so I don't have any little darling shots of children etc in my portfolio - mainly cause I don't have them! (Guess I could always borrow a client's sometime).
Having said that, I don't know if people automatically roll their eyes when they see a pic featuring an equestrian theme and say, 'Oh god it's snaffles' favourite horse/pony/barn yet again, I'll just give her a 4'. I'm assuming that most people judge each photo on its own merits.
And yes, some people's pics are almost instantly recognizable - I think I can spot an scalvert at fifty paces now, due mostly to the creative bent and generally sheer near-perfection of the shot.
So that's my two cents' worth! |
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02/10/2007 01:52:04 PM · #17 |
Bear_Music, not you at all. i admire your work, greatly.
i'm not going to name it, for i do not want to hurt anyone's feelings, but i saw it while voting in one of the challenges, and it's really just this one person that i've noticed, so i apologize, i shouldn't have started this thread for fear of hurting someone's feelings. even that one person's that i see this happening with a lot, i voted it on content, not my bias. i will never vote down something for personal biases or beliefs.
i'm sorry i posted this
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02/10/2007 02:01:01 PM · #18 |
Originally posted by jerowe:
Bear_Music, not you at all. i admire your work, greatly.
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SHMOOOZER!!
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02/10/2007 02:08:47 PM · #19 |
Originally posted by jerowe:
Bear_Music, not you at all. i admire your work, greatly.
i'm not going to name it, for i do not want to hurt anyone's feelings, but i saw it while voting in one of the challenges, and it's really just this one person that i've noticed, so i apologize, i shouldn't have started this thread for fear of hurting someone's feelings. even that one person's that i see this happening with a lot, i voted it on content, not my bias. i will never vote down something for personal biases or beliefs.
i'm sorry i posted this |
Not at ALL! Don't feel bad. Even if you DID have me in mind, what would that have to do with "admiring my work"? The topic is "being recognized by voters", and as one who often is, I was just giving my perspective.
R.
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02/10/2007 02:33:47 PM · #20 |
who is it - who is it - i need to know ! ;}
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02/10/2007 02:33:49 PM · #21 |
Simple solution: Shuffle the usernames once a week. ;-)
As mentioned, this topic comes up now and again and I think it's a good thing it does because, as demonstrated by the respoonses here, it is fairly easily debunked or at least shown that any positive impact of recognizibility is offset by at least equaly negative impact. To air this out is always a good thing and I don't think people get offended over someone stating a relatively common observation / misconception.
My 2 cents.
...hmmm - gives me an idea though - how about a "Librodo" challenge where everyone tries to emulate Librodo's style. Would be interesting to see if Manny would even finish in the top ten. LOL. Would also work for JoeyL or Scalvert and a few others. |
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02/10/2007 02:47:56 PM · #22 |
Originally posted by jerowe:
ok, i have to say this, and maybe i'm being a little nit picky ... but ... |
You are correct. You are being nit-picky... it is probably a waste of perfectly good brain cells worrying about recognizing someone's photo entry. Your time is better spend learning photography.
But if you are bothered by it then just skip and don't vote on images you recognize.
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02/10/2007 02:55:07 PM · #23 |
You can see in photos after the challenge when comments are made public that some people know exactly who the photog is. They'll say something like
"GREAT SHOT and processing...this must be 'insert_name_here',... an 8 from me!"
Nine out of ten times...the comment is dead on and they guess the correct photog.
This seems in line with what you are talking about.
Also, there is another site that I hang out on. On this site you can look at a portfolio and then later see the shot in the voting. Now you know who the shot came from b/c you saw the portfolio earlier.
There is one photog on there that is constantly getting daily, weekly and monthly awards with "not too great" pictures. The person is well known on the site and IMO gets the "lean" to higher votes.
I know DPC is not perfect in keeping the photog "unknown" in challenges, but it is the best system I've seen being used on a contest site.
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02/10/2007 02:57:24 PM · #24 |
I don't think it is nit picky...Once you know the photog...there is no way that you can be fair in voting. Before you say..."of course we can be fair if we know the photog"...let me say this...If it was known that us humans could be fair, then this site would post the photogs name on every shot in every challenge DURING voting.
Originally posted by stdavidson:
Originally posted by jerowe:
ok, i have to say this, and maybe i'm being a little nit picky ... but ... |
You are correct. You are being nit-picky... it is probably a waste of perfectly good brain cells worrying about recognizing someone's photo entry. Your time is better spend learning photography.
But if you are bothered by it then just skip and don't vote on images you recognize. |
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02/10/2007 03:51:16 PM · #25 |
If you are really worried about it then do what I do. If I recognise an image and I am 99% sure it belongs to a particular member...then I usually don't vote on it. If I have been shown that image prior to the challenge...I will tell the person (before they show me) that I will NOT be voting on that image. I will sometimes leave a comment on images I come across in a challenge...saying that this must be a (insert name) image but I don't vote on it.
With that being said there are times I will vote on recognised images...but usually only when it is a Self Portrait type challenge.
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