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02/06/2007 02:25:58 PM · #26 |
Originally posted by PurpleFire:
Also, unless you plan to go down the EOS 5D or EOS 1Ds route with their full frame sensors, the Nikons have less of Crop factor than the Canon. I actually think there is less noise with the Nikon. |
The difference in FOV crop is so close as to be negligible. You haven't been reading Ken Rockwell, have you?
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02/08/2007 06:59:06 AM · #27 |
I've had an old pentax film SLR for a few years and one of the main problems I found was lack of choice for lenses (particularly in the second hand market) - they all seemed to be Canon and Nikon. That's why I went the Canon way when I decided to get a DSLR. And if you are already finding Pentax stuff hard to find in your area it's definitely something to bear in mind.
Regarding Canon vs. Nikon, I think the only thing I wish I'd been more aware of when I picked the Canon is the differing attitudes of Nikon and Canon to the crop format; at least for the time being Nikon doesn't have FF cameras, so even their highest end lenses are designed for crop cameras. So if you take something like the Nikon 17-55 f/2.8 it has their full commitment behind it since it is intended to work with their top end cameras. Whereas the equivalent Canon lens (the EF-S 17-55 f/2.8), while still very good, doesn't quite have Canon's full weight behind it because they want high-end users to buy their FF cameras.
But I can't agree more with what others have said. Go and try the different cameras, see how they fit in your hand and how easy you find them to use. Every single camera I've seen mentioned in this thread is capable of taking great photos, there is no point in buying something which looks marginally better on paper only to find that you don't get on with it.
splidge
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02/08/2007 08:49:11 AM · #28 |
Think about lenses and other accessories. If you don't ever need much, then it's not that important, BUT if you get into macro or wildlife or other types of photography then lens choice and quality may be a bigger factor than the body choice, and here Canon rules.
Cost - you have the initial cost of the body, but again, accessories and lenses are a factor too. Generally it's cheaper to go Canon - new lenses are a bit cheaper than Nikon and there are tons of used lenses out there that can save you 20-50% over the cost of a new one.
I'm not saying pentax is leaving the camera biz, but we know nikon and canon aren't, and who know K-M would fold up their tent?
Anyway you go, do nothing till March - PMA is the first week of march and their will be a lot of announcements of new gear in the next 3 weeks (canon is expected to announce Feb 23 or 24) - New models to choose from is a good thing, but should the 30D be replaced then the current models get cheaper as their clearanced out.
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02/08/2007 11:00:34 AM · #29 |
Splidge - what you say about getting hold of Pentax bits and bobs is valid. Re lenses, I've read (no actual experience though) that FF lenses work very well on cropped frame sensors because the crops do not exploit the lenses capacity fully, so you don't have to worry about image quality falling of around the lenses edges. Nikon's strategy is OK, but does not give them an overwhelming advantage IMHO.
And, yes, I do need to get out and play with the models I'm thinking about, and Pentax is not doing too well - I have not seen one K10d in the flesh - there are a few k100s here and there, but not many. Cs and Ns are all over the place, so playing is possible. It's a shame really because I like the feature set of the k10d (spot meter, rgb histograms, and weatherproofing).
Prof_Fate - good idea to wait til March and then wait until the changes have an effect on the market over here and what you say about Pentax getting out of the camera biz is worrying - although K-M's gear was taken over by Sony in effect, so something similar could happen to Pentax (Samsung?)
However, if the 30d comes down in price, then I may re-consider it, but then the lighter weight of the 400d would not be a massive disadvantage.
PS Both Canon and Pentax bundle RAW editing software, whereas Nikon do not. The ability to shoot RAW images interests me a lot, so having the software in the pack makes quite a difference.
The K10d is still in the running, but the 400d is looking more and more attractive. And although I doubt I will get into wildlife, I am pretty sure I will get into macro photography at some point - so Canon seems to be a good choice. I did have a Canon film Slr a few years back and it was a great piece of kit.......... |
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02/08/2007 12:52:55 PM · #30 |
Originally posted by Almilan:
Splidge - what you say about getting hold of Pentax bits and bobs is valid. Re lenses, I've read (no actual experience though) that FF lenses work very well on cropped frame sensors because the crops do not exploit the lenses capacity fully, so you don't have to worry about image quality falling of around the lenses edges. Nikon's strategy is OK, but does not give them an overwhelming advantage IMHO. |
Yeah, I guess my perspective on the lens issue was a little one-sided. And yes, it's certainly true that using FF lenses you get to use the "sweet spot" of the lens, and thus suffer less from poor edge quality and vignetting. Plus if you are into telephoto photography you automatically get 1.5-1.6X the focal length for your money.
But the downside is that at the shorter end of things FF lenses tend not to match up well to the lengths you need on a crop camera. Obviously the worst offender is ultrawide lenses which on a crop camera need to have such short focal lengths that it is not feasible to use a FF lens (10mm-12mm range). But standard zooms are a problem too - the L-series lenses which are the closest fit are 16-35 or 17-40 (don't go long enough) and 24-70 (doesn't go wide enough). So the upgrade path of getting a basic camera with a basic lens -> upgrading to a decent "everyday" lens -> upgrading to a better camera doesn't work so well, since the decent everyday lens in question (the 17-55 f/2.8) won't work with the high end cameras (5D/1D). And my worry is that Canon will never get around to making the best crop camera that they possibly can since they are more interested in getting people to buy a 5D or 1D instead. Whereas Nikon already make "pro-grade" cameras in crop format which can use the same standard zooms and wideangles as their entry level cameras.
As for your comments about RAW converters, there are plenty of options for RAW conversion about. Photoshop Elements is a pretty good package for getting started on image editing and comes with a RAW converter (and a photo browser/manager than can cope with RAW files), and is very cheap.
splidge
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02/08/2007 08:06:52 PM · #31 |
Originally posted by Almilan:
Pentax is not doing too well - I have not seen one K10d in the flesh - there are a few k100s here and there, but not many. Cs and Ns are all over the place, so playing is possible. It's a shame really because I like the feature set of the k10d (spot meter, rgb histograms, and weatherproofing). |
I find that kind of odd... everywhere else, the problem seems to be opposite. There are K10Ds and K100Ds in stores everywhere, but lenses other than the 18-55 and 50-200 are hard to come by. I'm also lucky that one of the Vancouver camera stores - Leo's Camera - has always believed in Pentax, and anticipated Pentax's resurgence very well. Not only do they regularly carry pretty well every in-production Pentax lens, they also carry alot of Sigma and Tamron stuff in Pentax mount. I've never seen this anywhere else in my area (they do the same, to a lesser extent, for Oly and Sony as well).
I'm finding that being a Pentax owner, it feels like I'm a treasure hunter! This Luminous Landscape article from a few years back gives some insight into why Pentax glass is harder to find:
Originally posted by LL:
Pentax still also makes some of the best SLR lenses on the planet. For pure picture quality, taking bokeh into account, my considered opinion is that the Pentax 50mm f/1.4 is the best fast fifty (and I say that having carefully tested damn near everything out there). The FA 24mm f/2 is certainly one of the best 24mm AF lenses going. And if you were to directly compare the Leica 80mm Summilux-R, the Zeiss Contax 85mm f/1.4, the AF-Nikkor 85mm f/1.4, and the Pentax SMC-FA 85mm f/1.4, it would be very clear to you that the latter lens absolutely belongs in the company of the former three. For portraiture, it might even edge the others out.
Yet the very best AF SLR lenses made today are the Pentax Limiteds. There are only three, and they have focal lengths apparently chosen by means of occultish numerology: there's a 31mm f/1.8 wide, a 43mm f/1.9 "true" normal, and a 77mm f/1.8 short tele. They have beautiful matching metal lens hoods and a feel of quality that puts them above virtually all other AF lenses. |
On second thought, stay away from Pentax. Nothing shall come between me and my future FA* 85mm f/1.4! Nothing!
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02/09/2007 08:10:44 AM · #32 |
Option - yes it is strange that I cannot lay my hands on a k10d - you can get them from Italian on-line sellers, but not that easily in the shops - both specialised and large electronics stores. I can't even find a list of dealers on the Pentax Italia site, which is not wonderful. There is a forum, so I guess I could have a go at posting and asking where I can actually see a k10d, or maybe I could meet up with an owner. We'll see - hope the hassle proves worthwhile....
And you saying that you have become a treasure hunter worries me a wee bit. However, the Luminous Landscape article speaks very highly of Pentax glass, so maybe being a Pentax hunter is worthwhile. Thanks for the link.
I shall wait until the PMA in March and see whether that has an effect on the prices of the Canon 30d (I've seen and held one too!) or whether a 40d comes out and think about that.
Wait and see time, unless I get bored waiting and rush out and get a 400d, which i can find anywhere, just about. I still like the k10d, though...
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02/09/2007 09:33:56 AM · #33 |
Whatever choice you make, keep in mind that you will actually choose a whole system, for years to come, where the body is actually not the highest cost eventually, and probably the part you will change first (lenses or flash will more likely live longer).
In 3-4 years time, you may decide to change body. By that time you will have bought for hunbdredds / thousands $$ of gear, specific to canon or nikon or pentax. And of course, when you decide to change body, chances are the best body then will not come from the same manufacturer as the best body today (if there is such a thing).
Just highlighting that, because I remember when I bought my camera, I was all focused on the body. Never realized that was only the tip of the iceberg. By chance, there is little risk in choosing canon (okok not so much more risk in choosing nikon). |
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02/09/2007 11:23:13 AM · #34 |
mouten - you are right, I am more likely to change bodies than lenses, that is true, so this is something to keep in mind.
As an aside I visited yet another 'pro-style' camera store here in Milan - Unionfotomarket and guess what? No k10ds. There was a k100. I asked, but was told that 2 or 3 k10ds were coming, but the guy did not know when. EOS 400 and 350s were all over the place.
I also held a Nikon d200 - out of my price range, but it seemed too big and bulky for my little hands and the viewfinder was not as bright (no battery - but I don't know if that makes a difference??) as the eos30d or 350d I handled, which fitted my wee paws better too.
I'd still like to hold a k10d, but I'm being put off a little by its absence from the shops here - not a great sign. Shame. Pentax Italy seems to be quite a new set-up.
If the 30d kit drops a bit as a result of the PMA show, I may go for it, but I'm basically back on the 400d road for now...
Watch this space...
Message edited by author 2007-02-09 11:24:18. |
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02/09/2007 08:39:14 PM · #35 |
Originally posted by Prof_Fate:
Cost - you have the initial cost of the body, but again, accessories and lenses are a factor too. Generally it's cheaper to go Canon - new lenses are a bit cheaper than Nikon and there are tons of used lenses out there that can save you 20-50% over the cost of a new one.
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Usually the Canon fanboys say its better to buy Canon glass over third party because they hold their value and have high resale value. 20-50% cheaper tells me they all must be wrong.
bazz. |
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02/09/2007 08:53:39 PM · #36 |
Bazz, your kit is my wishlist...
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02/09/2007 09:10:30 PM · #37 |
Originally posted by option:
Bazz, your kit is my wishlist... |
Your camera is on my wishlist :)
I also have these primes to help fill the gaps. :)
Pentax-A 35mm f2.8
Pentax-SMC 135mm f2.5
Pentax-A 200mm f4.0
bazz. |
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02/10/2007 03:24:34 AM · #38 |
Bazz
Off the topic slightly - but a question. Does the SMC lenses fit the K10D ? I had a 135 prime on my SLR. Best dam lens I've ever owned.
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02/10/2007 03:44:01 AM · #39 |
| Did I mention you should get the Nikon D80? lol |
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02/10/2007 03:57:49 AM · #40 |
Originally posted by Tajhad:
Bazz
Off the topic slightly - but a question. Does the SMC lenses fit the K10D ? I had a 135 prime on my SLR. Best dam lens I've ever owned. |
*all* pentax mount lenses work on the K10D. Some just have limited features. (such as the loss of the ability to auto-meter, instead, you have to manually stop the lens down in order to meter. This happens only with K and M and screw mount lenses though.. anything with an A setting on the aperature such as A, FA, etc work with full features.)
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02/10/2007 04:14:19 AM · #41 |
I have tha Sny Alpha 100 it takes all the minolta lens and accessories, it has the same sensor as the Nikon D200
Price has dropped and it is a trmendous machine
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02/10/2007 04:22:40 AM · #42 |
Originally posted by Almilan:
mouten - you are right, I am more likely to change bodies than lenses, that is true, so this is something to keep in mind.
As an aside I visited yet another 'pro-style' camera store here in Milan - Unionfotomarket and guess what? No k10ds. There was a k100. I asked, but was told that 2 or 3 k10ds were coming, but the guy did not know when. EOS 400 and 350s were all over the place.
I also held a Nikon d200 - out of my price range, but it seemed too big and bulky for my little hands and the viewfinder was not as bright (no battery - but I don't know if that makes a difference??) as the eos30d or 350d I handled, which fitted my wee paws better too.
I'd still like to hold a k10d, but I'm being put off a little by its absence from the shops here - not a great sign. Shame. Pentax Italy seems to be quite a new set-up.
If the 30d kit drops a bit as a result of the PMA show, I may go for it, but I'm basically back on the 400d road for now...
Watch this space... |
Keep in mind that a shortage of stock might just mean that it's a nice piece of gear that is selling well. For what it's worth, I've checked out the 400D and the K10D and in my view it's a no contest. The Pentax is a the better all-round camera. I say this as a current Pentax user, but one who's used and loved Canon in years gone by. If not for the fact that my *ist DL is only 12ths old I'd have traded it on the K10D already (and may still do if I can convince my better half!). |
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02/10/2007 04:44:53 AM · #43 |
Originally posted by Tajhad:
Bazz
Off the topic slightly - but a question. Does the SMC lenses fit the K10D ? I had a 135 prime on my SLR. Best dam lens I've ever owned. |
Yes it does. Probably even sweeter on the Pentax DLSR's due to the APS-C format not using the outer most edges of the lens.
Originally posted by kiwinick:
I have tha Sny Alpha 100 it takes all the minolta lens and accessories, it has the same sensor as the Nikon D200
Price has dropped and it is a trmendous machine |
Its a good value body but its not the same sensor as used in the D200.
See the thread here.
bazz. |
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