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06/20/2003 02:44:22 PM · #51 |
Looks like it's overwhelmingly against the general spot editing rule.
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06/20/2003 02:51:24 PM · #52 |
Originally posted by paganini:
Looks like it's overwhelmingly against the general spot editing rule. |
The funny thing is, the way the poll is now, split 3 ways, it means the results are pretty much totally useless. Several, valid and obvious conclusions can be drawn, depending which point you want to make:
233 people want change and only 52 actually think things are okay
or
203 people are against more general editing freedom and only 82 want relaxed general editing.
or
the majority of people just want more challenges
So no matter which way it goes, the results are going to just be pointless and ammunition to either side of the debate.
There are three kinds of lies: lies, damn lies, and statistics.
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06/20/2003 02:52:06 PM · #53 |
Originally posted by Gordon:
Originally posted by Jak:
Originally posted by mk:
Or rather than missing the point, perhaps they don't agree with it. I know that we like to assume disagreements are based on the other person's stupidity around here, but not always... |
Hear, hear! Let's hear it for the intelligence of the majority who can very well understand what "once in a while" means. |
Always liked this quote from a well known defender of the democractic process:
" The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter. " - Sir Winston Churchill
Don't quite know why it popped into my head just now |
Sorry, but I think that the argument that anyone voting for something other than choice one is doing so because they are unable to comprehend what it is you want is asinine. I've thought that the contention that this was between the "elite" and everyone else has been ridiculous but when you say things like that, it certainly doesn't better your cause. |
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06/20/2003 02:54:03 PM · #54 |
Originally posted by mk:
Sorry, but I think that the argument that anyone voting for something other than choice one is doing so because they are unable to comprehend what it is you want is asinine. I've thought that the contention that this was between the "elite" and everyone else has been ridiculous but when you say things like that, it certainly doesn't better your cause. |
I don't know that I have a cause - but if I did, it was certainly never for 'completly unrestricted editing'. My position on this has never changed. I want more freedom in editing, that aims to promote photography.
The second phrase is the key qualification - complete free editing is something entirely different from what I would like to see. I don't think I ever saw anything from any of the people posting opposed to the changes that I'd like to see that gave me the actual impression they understood this. Otherwise discussions about digital art would simply not be raised as they are entirely missing the point.
Message edited by author 2003-06-20 14:55:32. |
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06/20/2003 03:03:06 PM · #55 |
i'm sorry that you feel surrounded by other people are stupid :). I tend to have faith in my fellow dpc'ers' intelligence.
In some cases, I'm aware that I or they may have more experience in a given area, which leads to an opportunity to use communication to perhaps share and grow. But I would never go so far as to say that's about stupidity.
It says alot about a person that would invoke that kind of terminology so readily in such a neutral discussion - if you feel like people less experienced than you are 'stupid', i beg you: please never reproduce :).
Originally posted by mk:
Originally posted by magnetic9999:
i think it means that the people who choose that think that having that option occur will placate those of us who want more editing latitude, while they miss the point altogether about finishing shots.
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Or rather than missing the point, perhaps they don't agree with it. I know that we like to assume disagreements are based on the other person's stupidity around here, but not always... |
Message edited by author 2003-06-20 15:05:27.
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06/20/2003 03:04:49 PM · #56 |
this says it all:
i enjoyed being able to edit out the dust spots in my black on black. yet i didnt create some kind of uber-phantasmagoria when i was given that latitude.
that's all i, personally, want. it works on the other dpc, why couldnt it work here ?
i STILL havent heard a good answer, just a lot of chicken clucking .... :)
Message edited by author 2003-06-20 15:06:57.
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06/20/2003 03:15:43 PM · #57 |
Originally posted by magnetic9999:
It says alot about a person that would invoke that kind of terminology so readily in such a neutral discussion - if you feel like people less experienced than you are 'stupid', i beg you: please never reproduce :).
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That is so far from the point (although if you want to speak in terms of intelligence, it's "a lot") that I can't even really understand how you got there. Perhaps I should have added some smileys. And I never said anything about being surrounded by stupid people. My point was simply that, the you present it seems to be that the people who understand vote for choice one and the people who just can't get it vote for two or three. What I'm saying is that this is not necessarily the case. There's a very good chance, especially considering the fact that you just said that you have faith in their intelligence, that people simply DON'T WANT it that way, not that they don't understand.
How my experience or the experience of others plays into that in any way, I don't know.
Message edited by author 2003-06-20 15:17:20. |
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06/20/2003 03:23:17 PM · #58 |
Originally posted by magnetic9999:
this says it all:
i enjoyed being able to edit out the dust spots in my black on black. yet i didnt create some kind of uber-phantasmagoria when i was given that latitude.
that's all i, personally, want. it works on the other dpc, why couldnt it work here ?
i STILL havent heard a good answer, just a lot of chicken clucking .... :) |
Nothing -- let me repeat, nothing -- stops you removing hot pixels and dust from ANY of your images. Nothing. The current dpc rules just mean that, for one single image, and for one single purpose -- entering the challenges -- and for one single week, you can't do it. How this can possibly affect your improvement in photography -- that's what escapes me. No-one has given me any real reasons why this should be the case; just a lot of chicken clucking :-)
Message edited by author 2003-06-20 15:23:54.
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06/20/2003 03:25:01 PM · #59 |
i do have faith in their intelligence. but at the same time, i know there are alot of self-proclaimed beginners on this site, who perhaps, by definition, may be able to learn something positive from other, more experienced individuals.
i also hear alot of emotional or non-rational responses to what's been proposed. people seem to fear it. i havent yet heard a logical reason why. but often the responses distort the original intent, invoking 'digital-art', which is what an occasional unlimited editing challenge seems to be about.
this is partly why some find the #2 option pointless - it's not unlimited editing/digital art we want. that's where that misses the point. i just want to take a cat hair off a cloth once in awhile, for example, and not feel like i'm committing a huge sin in doing so. and there are sites that allow people to do that without the apocalypse, so why couldnt it happen here, given that we are all such a good community?
Originally posted by mk:
[quote=magnetic9999]
There's a very good chance, especially considering the fact that you just said that you have faith in their intelligence, that people simply DON'T WANT it that way, not that they don't understand. |
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06/20/2003 03:25:29 PM · #60 |
The facts are, for whatever reasons, about 75% of the votes favor NOT opening up virtually unlimited editing for the challenges. Some may not have the time, software, talent,or may not give a hoot about "finishing"a photo. You who want these editing freedoms, knock yourselves out. You who have MADE this site what it is, or feel you have, will probably have no problem getting your own weekly challenge with whatever rules you wish. If not, there is always the "other" dot com's. Or is the competition too tough there? or the lack of nudity? or that the sitemasters select which photos get to the finals. Don't misunderstand. I appreciate the tutorials and ideas and yes, even the PS tips you folks contribute here but most of us are a long way from being proficient at photography much less PS. Maybe we just want to learn to shoot better 35's and will never ever do the darkroom thing.
You can spin the vote results any way you choose. I choose to think many were showing a willingness to compromise. I doubt many missed the point at all.
Why would you think the poll would NEED to follow the point of "an original discussion"? Which discussion?
Originally posted by Gordon:
Originally posted by mk:
Originally posted by magnetic9999:
i think it means that the people who choose that think that having that option occur will placate those of us who want more editing latitude, while they miss the point altogether about finishing shots.
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Or rather than missing the point, perhaps they don't agree with it. I know that we like to assume disagreements are based on the other person's stupidity around here, but not always... |
maybe, but the second poll option entirely misses the point of the original discussion, so its a fairly safe bet. |
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06/20/2003 03:27:29 PM · #61 |
well, your point is well-taken that such a pic could be entered in it's 'pure' form, and could be worked on more outside of dpc. absolutely true. i would just like to be able to submit the cleanest possible pic when i enter the contests.
Originally posted by Jak:
[quote=magnetic9999]How this can possibly affect your improvement in photography -- that's what escapes me. |
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06/20/2003 03:29:28 PM · #62 |
i hear what you're saying. and there's alot of validity in your points, David. but why should everyone be penalized because some have no interest in trying hard?
Originally posted by David Ey:
Some may not have the time, software, talent,or may not give a hoot about "finishing"a photo. |
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06/20/2003 03:38:09 PM · #63 |
Originally posted by David Ey:
The facts are, for whatever reasons, about 75% of the votes favor NOT opening up virtually unlimited editing for the challenges. |
Wow, you must be seeing entirely different results than I am.
Option 1: slight increase in editing freedoms, for all challenges
Option 2: a whole lot more editing freedoms, no restrictions on editing in some challenges
Option 3: Status Quo
Seems like the current majority vote is for the least restrictive editing. Isn't it strange how numbers go...
Message edited by author 2003-06-20 15:39:08. |
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06/20/2003 03:42:22 PM · #64 |
Gordon, I think the majority of voters would like to have challenges that are open for editing, but they don't want it for the open challenges thta we have weekly, that's what it means. That means, people don't want even a LITTLE bit of spot editing for OPEN challenges, but they would rather want MORE challenges that allows spot editing, rather than changing the weekly one.
Originally posted by Gordon:
Originally posted by David Ey:
The facts are, for whatever reasons, about 75% of the votes favor NOT opening up virtually unlimited editing for the challenges. |
Wow, you must be seeing entirely different results than I am.
Option 1: slight increase in editing freedoms, for all challenges
Option 2: a whole lot more editing freedoms, no restrictions on editing in some challenges
Option 3: Status Quo
Seems like the current majority vote is for the least restrictive editing. Isn't it strange how numbers go... |
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06/20/2003 03:47:17 PM · #65 |
Originally posted by paganini:
Gordon, I think the majority of voters would like to have challenges that are open for editing, but they don't want it for the open challenges thta we have weekly, that's what it means. That means, people don't want even a LITTLE bit of spot editing for OPEN challenges, but they would rather want MORE challenges that allows spot editing, rather than changing the weekly one.
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Yup, thanks for clarifing the point that there are lots of different ways to interpret the results - mostly because there are several questions being asked, combined into one.
More challenges, or same amount.
no changes, incremental editing changes, or free editing.
Two distinct sets of questions, mixed up - you could easily want more challenges and existing editing rules, and vote for 2, to get more choice and so on, I can see at least 6 valid permutations for the current vote... |
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06/20/2003 03:49:49 PM · #66 |
You're beating on the bush there.
I think it's pretty clear for everyone to see, given the three choices, that
1. Vote this if you want spot editing on normal challenges (weekly ones).
2. Vote this if yoou want spot editing on occasional challenges (once in a while)
3. Vote this if you don't want any spot editing challenges.
We can do another poll with #1 and #3, and the results will be the same as #1 and (#2+3) together.
I think you're just emotional because people don't want spot editing for the normal challenges.
Originally posted by Gordon:
Originally posted by paganini:
Gordon, I think the majority of voters would like to have challenges that are open for editing, but they don't want it for the open challenges thta we have weekly, that's what it means. That means, people don't want even a LITTLE bit of spot editing for OPEN challenges, but they would rather want MORE challenges that allows spot editing, rather than changing the weekly one.
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Yup, thanks for clarifing the point that there are lots of different ways to interpret the results - mostly because there are several questions being asked, combined into one.
More challenges, or same amount.
no changes, incremental editing changes, or free editing.
Two distinct sets of questions, mixed up - you could easily want more challenges and existing editing rules, and vote for 2, to get more choice and so on, I can see at least 6 valid permutations for the current vote... |
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06/20/2003 03:53:23 PM · #67 |
Originally posted by paganini:
You're beating on the bush there.
I think it's pretty clear for everyone to see, given the three choices, that
1. Vote this if you want spot editing on normal challenges (weekly ones).
2. Vote this if yoou want spot editing on occasional challenges (once in a while)
3. Vote this if you don't want any spot editing challenges.
We can do another poll with #1 and #3, and the results will be the same as #1 and (#2+3) together.
I think you're just emotional because people don't want spot editing for the normal challenges.
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I missed the part where being logical started being emotional :) I actually just find the current poll confusing thats all. While you are perfectly right that thinking it is really #1 and #2+#3 it can also very easily be considered, totally unemotionally, as #1+#2 and #3 as a vote for or against more editing freedoms, for example. |
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06/20/2003 03:55:30 PM · #68 |
Given the number of post on this thread, I think it's safe to say that if you want more editing freedoms FOR WEEKLY NORMAL challenges, you'd vote #1. and #2 is the compromise between #1 or #3.
Originally posted by Gordon:
Originally posted by paganini:
You're beating on the bush there.
I think it's pretty clear for everyone to see, given the three choices, that
1. Vote this if you want spot editing on normal challenges (weekly ones).
2. Vote this if yoou want spot editing on occasional challenges (once in a while)
3. Vote this if you don't want any spot editing challenges.
We can do another poll with #1 and #3, and the results will be the same as #1 and (#2+3) together.
I think you're just emotional because people don't want spot editing for the normal challenges.
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I missed the part where being logical started being emotional :) I actually just find the current poll confusing thats all. While you are perfectly right that thinking it is really #1 and #2+#3 it can also very easily be considered, totally unemotionally, as #1+#2 and #3 as a vote for or against more editing freedoms, for example. |
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06/20/2003 03:57:18 PM · #69 |
| Option #2 is the Perot group. We have Clinton, Bush and Perot in the running. If Perot drops out, which way will the majority of his votes swing? Tough call. Some will go in each direction. |
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06/20/2003 03:58:52 PM · #70 |
So you'd rather have:
1. Allow spot editing in weekly challenges?
2. Don't allow spot eiditng in weekly challenges?
Why don't we just have a poll like this and end this issue? :-) I suspect that the majority will still vote for #2.
Originally posted by StevePax:
Option #2 is the Perot group. We have Clinton, Bush and Perot in the running. If Perot drops out, which way will the majority of his votes swing? Tough call. Some will go in each direction. |
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06/20/2003 04:00:01 PM · #71 |
The only unambiguous choice is #3, no changes at all. From the current results, I would have to conclude that a sizeable majority is in favor of SOME DEGREE of additional editing be allowed. How much, and for which challenges, cannot be determined from this poll.
For polls where you want to assess more than one option or variable at a time, I suggest using a weighted ranking rather than exclusive choice, or else ask a series of questions. A poll like this can lead to more questions than answers. |
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06/20/2003 04:15:19 PM · #72 |
Originally posted by paganini:
So you'd rather have:
1. Allow spot editing in weekly challenges?
2. Don't allow spot eiditng in weekly challenges?
Why don't we just have a poll like this and end this issue? :-) I suspect that the majority will still vote for #2. |
I would prefer for someone to write up the new rule for each set of tools (dodge/burn, clone/heal, etc) and then run a yes/no poll for each one. And end this issue, yes : )
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06/20/2003 04:22:09 PM · #73 |
Originally posted by bod:
Originally posted by paganini:
So you'd rather have:
1. Allow spot editing in weekly challenges?
2. Don't allow spot eiditng in weekly challenges?
Why don't we just have a poll like this and end this issue? :-) I suspect that the majority will still vote for #2. |
I would prefer for someone to write up the new rule for each set of tools (dodge/burn, clone/heal, etc) and then run a yes/no poll for each one. And end this issue, yes : ) |
All of this discussion and now you want to be sensible? |
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07/08/2003 07:33:36 PM · #74 |
Can someone tell me if the editing poll was open to members only or to the entire user base?
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07/08/2003 07:39:02 PM · #75 |
Originally posted by Jak:
Can someone tell me if the editing poll was open to members only or to the entire user base? |
There is an icon next to each poll. In this case it is open to all.
Don't feel bad, I just realized this too!
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