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07/06/2004 02:34:10 AM · #476 |
| Please, let this thread die. |
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07/06/2004 10:53:00 AM · #477 |
Originally posted by Frog2:
This is mostly for the Christians who like I do struggle for what is right when two things we believe to be true, the mosaic law and our God given freedom, seem to come in conflict. The rest of this is what I believe as a follower of Christ and as a patriotic American. True Christianity is persecuted. It will always be. True Christianity cannot as C. S. Lewis said be formed into a government unless literally all of the members of that society are Christians. As such we cannot expect America to be a Christian society; it is not. No matter what anyone says or tries to argue, America is not a Christian nation. By no means am I saying that there are no Christians in America because there are, but the laws set up by true, honorable Christians to try to allow freedom and justice will be set upon by greedy immoral people (I donât mean anyone specific by this, it is a generalization). This is why we desperately need things like court reform, tax reform, the bill of rights, and the justice and legal systems. We Christians need to stop telling people they are wrong, and start showing them we are right. Remember the whole city on a hill thing. If you are scared of some people being married, donât be. They are married according to maybe one cityâs mayor and one rouge priest. According to the bible, marriage is a union between a man and a woman before God. You noticed the only name of the three that I capitalized was God. If God doesnât sanctify it then it is not a marriage, regardless of what the Mayor of San Francisco, The President of the United States, or the Pope himself says. Maybe I am too naïve to understand the consequences my opinions could bring around, but I was always taught it is never the wrong time to do the right thing, and I believe this is the right thing. Mousie, I am sorry for whatever made you dislike Christianity, though you donât sound like you dislike Christians in particular, which I commend you for. Too many people on both sides of arguments like this end up hating people with different opinions. As for anyone who is angry with homosexuals for simply being such, my question, to quote the Black Eyed Peas, is âWhere is the love?â What according to the Lord Christ, our role model, the one we are striving for, is the greatest commandment. Try âLOVE ONE ANOTHER.â If I can get up on my soap box for a minute (and I by no means am able to do this myself all the time, but I know this to be true, so very sorry for preaching at you, but it needs to be said for all involved): if we turn to God to try to solve problems like this, then maybe we as Christians should try looking at what He has already told us: Love one another.
P.S. Please post responses, I love being proved wrong.
The death he died, he died to sin once and for all; but the life he lives, he lives to God. In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus.
Romans 6:10-11 |
"The problem with the world is that ignorant and bigoted people are so sure of themselves, and thoughtful people are so full of doubts." |
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07/07/2004 09:50:14 PM · #478 |
Originally posted by achiral:
it's in the constitution. |
Where in the constitution does it ban gay marriage???
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07/07/2004 09:53:18 PM · #479 |
Originally posted by MadMordegon:
"The problem with the world is that ignorant and bigoted people are so sure of themselves, and thoughtful people are so full of doubts." |
Amen to that. It's because thoughtful people actually think about stuff rather than taking the "authorities" rules as law. It makes it much harder to make your point when you are always willing to consider changing what you think based on evidence. This is why the scientific method leads to new discoveries but does not produce (or isn't supposed to produce) doctrine. When it does it has left the realm of scientific thought and entered the realm of religion.
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08/06/2004 07:03:31 PM · #480 |
Originally posted by ACPhotoDesign:
Originally posted by MadMordegon:
"The problem with the world is that ignorant and bigoted people are so sure of themselves, and thoughtful people are so full of doubts." |
Amen to that. It's because thoughtful people actually think about stuff rather than taking the "authorities" rules as law. It makes it much harder to make your point when you are always willing to consider changing what you think based on evidence. This is why the scientific method leads to new discoveries but does not produce (or isn't supposed to produce) doctrine. When it does it has left the realm of scientific thought and entered the realm of religion. |
Somehow I missed this when you 1st posted it but well said!
(bold highlight mine) |
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01/23/2007 09:31:38 PM · #481 |
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01/23/2007 09:32:27 PM · #482 |
Originally posted by idnic:
Bump for Ken. ;) |
You trying to tell us something?
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01/23/2007 09:37:42 PM · #483 |
(dont wanna get involved, Ken's not in a good mood today!)
Message edited by author 2007-01-23 21:54:26. |
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01/23/2007 09:38:01 PM · #484 |
Originally posted by idnic:
Bump for Ken. ;) |
Ken? Really? Who would have thunked??? ;-) |
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01/23/2007 09:38:53 PM · #485 |
Originally posted by fotomann_forever:
Originally posted by idnic:
Bump for Ken. ;) |
You trying to tell us something? |
was trying to tell his wife!! LOL
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01/23/2007 09:47:43 PM · #486 |
Originally posted by idnic:
was trying to tell his wife!! LOL |
His wife is gay? OMG! It'll break his heart. :-(
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01/30/2007 11:02:13 AM · #487 |
I was in a pissy mood because of a narrow-minded, abusive individual in another thread, so I came over to Rant.....
Now I'm just sad because for the life of me I cannot understand why stupid prejudice that is the result of fear and ignorance causes so much pain.
Gay marriages/unions are a civil/human rights issue, period.
This is America, civil/human rights are why we exist in the first place, overlooking what we did to the indigenous population, of course.
We can try to make amends for that.
I am a 51 year old straight man with a female partner of 28 years, 23 of them married, with a 12 year old daughter.
All three of us are ashamed of the fear, ignorance, and stupidity that surround same sex unions.
It's not okay to deny people their rights.
We fully support the freedom to exercise any and all basic beliefs and rights as *guaranteed* by our Constitution!
Oh, and BTW.......the church that I attend does not tell me what to believe, how to worship, give me a creed, or batter me with dogma.
It's also known as a welcoming congregation.....we welcome all people, period, and support them in their search for justice, truth, faith, and spirituality whatever their beliefs may be.
Wow, what a concept, huh?
Sounds like America to me!
What has happened to these ideals on a daily basis?
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01/30/2007 11:05:35 AM · #488 |
Dude, this thread is 3 years old. It was only bumped a few days ago as a joke, picking on ArtRoflmao. I would like to think americans continue to mature on this subject daily and it has become mainstream in many areas. Don't let people get to you, take some pictures, enjoy your day. :)
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01/30/2007 12:47:21 PM · #489 |
Originally posted by idnic:
I would like to think americans continue to mature on this subject daily and it has become mainstream in many areas. Don't let people get to you, take some pictures, enjoy your day. :) |
I am not so sure that society has matured that much - in the UK we are facing marches by the Catholic right who want to retain the right to discriminate against gay people. And that is from a country with barely a whimper of religiosity about it.
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01/30/2007 01:47:15 PM · #490 |
I dont want to sound dumb even though this probably will...i dont follow religion nor politics, sooooo how is it that they can band two people from getting married anyway?
I always figured they band it because the bible pushers or religious people (whoever) say that it's wrong, however they the government make it against the rules to talk about god in school right?
so who is making these laws? |
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01/30/2007 05:12:07 PM · #491 |
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
It's not okay to deny people their rights.
We fully support the freedom to exercise any and all basic beliefs and rights as *guaranteed* by our Constitution!
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Originally posted by legalbeagle:
...in the UK we are facing marches by the Catholic right who want to retain the right to discriminate against gay people. |
So, let me get see if I have this straight.
It's NOT OK to deny SOME people ( those who support gay marriage ) their rights, but maybe we SHOULD deny other people ( Catholics ) their rights.
Got it. But,...but,...somehow that view just doesn't seem right. |
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01/30/2007 11:35:00 PM · #492 |
Originally posted by RonB:
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
It's not okay to deny people their rights.
We fully support the freedom to exercise any and all basic beliefs and rights as *guaranteed* by our Constitution!
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Originally posted by legalbeagle:
...in the UK we are facing marches by the Catholic right who want to retain the right to discriminate against gay people. |
So, let me get see if I have this straight.
It's NOT OK to deny SOME people ( those who support gay marriage ) their rights, but maybe we SHOULD deny other people ( Catholics ) their rights.
Got it. But,...but,...somehow that view just doesn't seem right. |
Most gay people that wish to get married don't care if it's in a church or not. Letting churches have the choice is one of the keys to same-sex marriage here in Canada. (Which, btw, we've had for quite some time now, and everyone seems to have forgotten about it.. and.. oh look, world is still here ;)) So I don't know, exactly, what rights of the 'Catholic' are being infringed upon. The right to hate? Is that a right?
Whereas the right to love and freedom of expression and freedom of choice *is* a valid right.
I know you think your argument holds water.. but you might want to change the coleander you seem to be holding...
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01/30/2007 11:43:01 PM · #493 |
Originally posted by RonB:
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
It's not okay to deny people their rights.
We fully support the freedom to exercise any and all basic beliefs and rights as *guaranteed* by our Constitution!
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Originally posted by legalbeagle:
...in the UK we are facing marches by the Catholic right who want to retain the right to discriminate against gay people. |
So, let me get see if I have this straight.
It's NOT OK to deny SOME people ( those who support gay marriage ) their rights, but maybe we SHOULD deny other people ( Catholics ) their rights.
Got it. But,...but,...somehow that view just doesn't seem right. |
How is discrimination in any form anyone's right?
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01/31/2007 12:07:27 AM · #494 |
Originally posted by idnic:
Dude, this thread is 3 years old. It was only bumped a few days ago as a joke, picking on ArtRoflmao. I would like to think americans continue to mature on this subject daily and it has become mainstream in many areas. Don't let people get to you, take some pictures, enjoy your day. :) |
Umm...
It doesn't really seem like a joke in particularly good taste, and if you reread what I wrote, I came to the rant forum to blow off some steam and found this thread that made me sad.....reread it, please!
My 11 year old daughter had a "Freedom to Marry" button on her bookbag....she's in sixth grade and her Sunday school class is trying to teach about acceptance, tolerance, and understanding of other forms of religion, beliefs, race, and sexual orientation.
A 9th grade boy sat down in the seat behind her and smacked her on the back of the head a couple of times, harassed her, including calling her a lesbian like it's a dirty word, and generally being a monster.
Now......if you can tell me that's a maturation from what homophobia and gay rights issues have been like for the past couple of decades, I'm all ears. I really needed to leave work, come home to console my little girl, talk to the bus driver and the vice-principal at the school, and try whilst consoling my daughter to get her to understanbd that dealing with a$$holes like this is what gay people have to do on a daily basis, like I needed a hole in the head.
Not to mention quash my natural desire to jack this little sh*t up against the wall and see how he likes being abused by someone considerably bigger and stronger than him.
But I can't very well do that and turn my daughter into a pariah, can I?
This all happened about a month and a half ago, not a decade ago, and it certainly shows me how far we have NOT come in the arena of human rights.
See, this wretched kid went after my daughter because this is hatred and ignorance that is being perpetuated. How did this kid even know what the phrase Freedom to Marry is if he isn't being raised in a backward, prejudiced environment?
And we live in an area that is reasonably affluent and the educational level is fairly high, mostly college graduates.
Why don't you go to my profile and look at my Best of entry and I'll fill you in on what that was about......supposed guardians of *MY* morals and values acting in the most reprehensible manner you could even imagine! I won't get into that unless you really are interested, which I'd assume that you probably aren't, I spend a fair amount of time trying to do what I can where I live to make life better and I don't expect anyone else to take up my cause. I would just appreciate not being trivilized, either. This is something that is a serious issue with me.
So you kinda picked the wrong guy and the wrong issue to just kind of laugh off and I hope that you see where I am coming from when I get frustrated because people project their morals, values, and beliefs on others and then get really nasty when they meet resistance.
And my little girl got a real education in what stupid, ignorant hatred is all about at the ripe old age of 11.
Isn't that special?
There's a quote out there that basically states that hate wins out when good people do nothing.....think about that.
I'm not trying to be pedantic......but some things just aren't funny to me.
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01/31/2007 12:33:48 AM · #495 |
| I missed the baiting bump and now to send this thread into my "ignore" closet. ...or maybe I should state my opinion and end it with the word "period" which automatically makes it an irrefutable fact. :) Before I go, for the record, I am all for happy marriages. :) Have fun. |
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01/31/2007 11:41:34 AM · #496 |
NikonJeb, I'm sorry. I accidentally hid this thread instead of placing it on ignore.
It is now "visible" again, and ya'll can continue. . . |
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01/31/2007 12:02:28 PM · #497 |
Originally posted by RonB:
So, let me get see if I have this straight.
It's NOT OK to deny SOME people ( those who support gay marriage ) their rights, but maybe we SHOULD deny other people ( Catholics ) their rights.
Got it. But,...but,...somehow that view just doesn't seem right. |
I think that you know that you are discombobulating here.
I started typing out a long response, but maybe I should adopt your tactics:
Catholics want the right to discriminate against gay people, and want special rights that no-one else has to do so because of their beliefs, but it is NOT right for people with other beliefs to discriminate against Catholics by refusing their request. Somehow, that does not seem right to me.
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01/31/2007 05:14:59 PM · #498 |
Originally posted by legalbeagle:
Originally posted by RonB:
So, let me get see if I have this straight.
It's NOT OK to deny SOME people ( those who support gay marriage ) their rights, but maybe we SHOULD deny other people ( Catholics ) their rights.
Got it. But,...but,...somehow that view just doesn't seem right. |
I think that you know that you are discombobulating here.
I started typing out a long response, but maybe I should adopt your tactics:
Catholics want the right to discriminate against gay people, and want special rights that no-one else has to do so because of their beliefs, but it is NOT right for people with other beliefs to discriminate against Catholics by refusing their request. Somehow, that does not seem right to me. |
My post was a tongue in cheek way to show that too many people have too loose a definition of what "rights" are. And that there is a certain degree of hypocrisy involved concerning "rights", as well.
Jeb seems to think that it is not OK to deny homosexuals marriage / civil union because it is, in his words, a "right" and he supports the free exercise of all "rights" guaranteed by the U.S. Constitution. The only problem is that the U.S. Constitution doesn't guarantee any such "right" - that "right" is currently reserved to the individual states by virtue of the fact that the U.S. Supreme Court has thus far refused to hear arguments about state laws concerning same-sex marriage. Jeb is from Pennsylvania, not Massachusetts, if one is to believe his profile, so in his state same-sex marriage is still not a "right".
You, on the other hand seem to use the word "right" in describing what the Catholic folks want to maintain - that is, the "right" to discriminate against gays, which, I'm led to believe is, in fact, a "right" under current U.K. law ( though one that will no longer be a "right" under the provisions of the Equality Act, which is due to take effect in April ).
Rights, then, are granted by, or at least upheld by, law ( as interpreted by the courts ). Not because someone "thinks" they're rights, but because the courts "rule" that they are. And it IS OK to deny someone the "rights" that really aren't rights, and to uphold the "rights" that really are rights ( at least until they are eliminated or superceded ). And it's not OK to do the reverse - that is argue to uphold the rights that aren't and to deny the rights that are.
As to your point: As far as I know, the Catholic Church is not seeking to gain the right to discriminate against gays, since they already have that right. What they are seeking is to maintain that right, for the purpose of adoptions only, after the Equality Act takes effect. And, for what it's worth, I fully support the "right" of the U.K. government to refuse to permit an exception to the provisions of the Equality Act to the Catholic Church. That's the way it works. The government has that "right". If the Catholic Church doesn't want to comply, then let them close the adoption agencies. If they really, really have a problem with having their right to discriminate eliminated, then let them try to get it restored via the same avenues that got it eliminated - pressure on the government. Just think, it only took William Wilberforce 16 years of continually introducing anti-slavery legislation to the Parliament before he finally succeeded in getting it passed. See "right" has little to do with "rights". And the government really stinks at reconciling the two. |
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01/31/2007 06:45:10 PM · #499 |
Originally posted by RonB:
Originally posted by legalbeagle:
I think that you know that you are discombobulating here.
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My post was a tongue in cheek way to show that too many people have too loose a definition of what "rights" are. And that there is a certain degree of hypocrisy involved concerning "rights", as well. |
Then I am glad that I did not break out the word 'discombobulating' for nothing! I will think further overnight as it is late here.
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01/31/2007 06:59:54 PM · #500 |
Originally posted by legalbeagle:
I will think further overnight as it is late here. |
You even think about 'rant' threads in your sleep? - You need to get out more. ;-p |
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