How to Critique this Challenge. - DPChallenge Forums

10/17/2002 11:01:52 AM · #51

Originally posted by inspzil:

I guess the big thing that is sticking in my mind - aren't sins committed by humans? Or does sin involve every thing everywhere? This is kinda bothering me.

I think this is a really prime example of what I mean. Yes very literally sins can
only be commited by human beings. But if you take a slightly wider viewpoint, and
perhaps anthropomorphize a little you could draw a parallel with an inanimate object,
or perhaps apply those human attributes to an animal.

A thought to ponder: have you read 'Animal Farm' ?

In an entirely literal sense you'd not be meeting the challenge, but with perhaps
a touch more imagination applied you might end up with a more interesting picture
that maybe makes people think about more about the subject - e.g., that
squirrel looks like its being greedy - wait a minute, can animals sin - ... an
interesting train of thought...

The need for people to pin down challenge titles by posting the dictionary
definitions so that they can exclude everything that isn't literally described
and leave no scope for allusion or metaphor depresses me quite a lot when I read
the forums.

* This message has been edited by the author on 10/17/2002 11:45:13 AM.

Sigma 24-70mm f/2.8 EX Aspherical DF for Canon

10/17/2002 11:07:34 AM · #52

Originally posted by myqyl:

Actually Gordon, for some of us it IS just a 'useful learning experience'... It's one of the advantages of not having a snowball's chance in hell of winning :) You folks at the top of the food chain can suffer with competition part of it all :)

I'm not at the top of any food chain - my last entry finished 154th...
I don't think my garbage was clearly garbage enough although a lot of
people seemed to have thought it was a garbage picture, they just couldn't
work out that an empty wine bottle is garbage or that that was what it was.

But then I knew that before I entered it. Normally I'm more 'constrained'
by the idea of a picture trying to do well in the challenge than I was
with that one. I took it thinking it was an interesting picture, showing
an unusual aspect or side of the bottle I was playing with.

If I had been thinking 'purely challenge' I wouldn't have entered it,
or perhaps shot it from a less interesting side that showed more clearly
what it was. Either that or a really literal title like 'empty winebottle'
might have helped - who knows.

magnetic9999

Canon EOS-20D

10/17/2002 11:14:14 AM · #53

i know it's a judgement call, but i think you can usually tell if people are 'interpreting' because they really had no idea what they were doing, vs. whether they were trying to actually do something thoughtful with the challenge topic.

for example, the 'self directed wrath' pic or 'waiting' seem to be deeper interpretations that showthe psychological results of sins taken too far.

whereas, many shots, that i prolly shouldn't name, seem to be more about 'i have a pic here that i took and im going to try to shoehorn it into the challenge using the title as the primary lever.'

i dont think it takes a rocket scientist or an art critic to tell the difference. it seems sort of common sensical :P.

but why is it that common sense isn't? lol ..

* This message has been edited by the author on 10/17/2002 11:13:25 AM.

inspzil

Olympus E-510

Sigma 50-500mm f/4.0-6.3 EX APO RF HSM for Olympus

10/17/2002 11:33:48 AM · #54

Originally posted by magnetic9999:
i know it's a judgement call, but i think you can usually tell if people are 'interpreting' because they really had no idea what they were doing, vs. whether they were trying to actually do something thoughtful with the challenge topic.

for example, the 'self directed wrath' pic or 'waiting' seem to be deeper interpretations that showthe psychological results of sins taken too far.

whereas, many shots, that i prolly shouldn't name, seem to be more about 'i have a pic here that i took and im going to try to shoehorn it into the challenge using the title as the primary lever.'

i dont think it takes a rocket scientist or an art critic to tell the difference. it seems sort of common sensical :P.

but why is it that common sense isn't? lol ..

I've often pondered why it's called common sense... If it's so common, why doesn't everyone have access to it? You have said quite simply what I was trying to say but with my lack of $20 words like Gordo, was not able to convey to the more educated masses. He used some 'anthropomorphic' big word, and I do know what it means.

'Shoehorning' is a very good term. I was going to say 'reaching'. I don't want to make myself sound narrow minded, but maybe I am. There is a point where there are too many rules, like pro football, but we're a long ways from that methinks. I was sort of trying to get at the difference you pointed out at the beginning of your post. I'm glad someone can speak my mind.

10/17/2002 11:57:12 AM · #55

Gordon, I am thoroughly confused by your lack of consistency. In one post you agree that dpchallenge is "isn't a 'play around and learn something' exercise. It is a 'take the best picture you can so that you win' competition." And yet in another post you say: "what I see as the point of this site - which is a contest that should improve your photography. It shouldn't limit you creatively or confine you to a really narrow set of options."

I think you represent the basic problem at this site: you want it to be two different things at one and the same time. To do this, you want to strip all meaning out of the words "competition" and "challenge."

To me this is a competition site, the point is to score as highly as possibly and to rate one's competitors against the rules of the challenge, not some wish-washy set of criteria that makes sense only in each person's head. That is why the wording of the challenge is of vital importance to me. The wording of the challenge is what drives my search for an entry, and if I cannot fit the criteria (using a reasonably liberal interpretation that uses common sense for the meaning of everyday words)I don't enter. That is also why I limit my scores for non-compliant entries to a 1-3 scale based on picture quality.

We hope -- sincerely hope --that we learn something through this exercise; I certainly have. But that is a side benefit only. For learning -- both in a creative way, or as a means to earn a living -- there are significantly better sites, with enormous resources both in print/online essays and with professional photographers willing to comment creatively on one's submissions.

This, however, is simply the best competition site, imo, and that is why I am here week after week.

* This message has been edited by the author on 10/17/2002 11:55:38 AM.

Sigma 24-70mm f/2.8 EX Aspherical DF for Canon

10/17/2002 11:57:20 AM · #56

Originally posted by inspzil:

'Shoehorning' is a very good term. I was going to say 'reaching'. I don't want to make myself sound narrow minded, but maybe I am. There is a point where there are too many rules, like pro football, but we're a long ways from that methinks. I was sort of trying to get at the difference you pointed out at the beginning of your post. I'm glad someone can speak my mind.

But you think the pictures of animals are shoehorned in ? Am I correct
in reading that ? Btw: my $20 word of the day is Hippopotomonstrosesquippedaliophobia - enjoy

* This message has been edited by the author on 10/17/2002 12:06:26 PM.

Gorpie

Fujifilm FinePix 2800Z

10/17/2002 12:05:42 PM · #57

I dont think this may mean alot to most of you and it may have already been posted cos I cba to read all the replies to this thread darlings :D but anyways :P

I try to ignore the challenge that has been set, as long as it looks like it can have the most tiny of threads back to it or else i deduct a few marks, saying its good but not good enough to win. You shouldnt look at photos to see whether they meet the challenge but look at the photo and see what emotions it draws from you, whether it was well taken and the like, the fact of whether or not it meets the challenge should be of minimal importance. Gbye darlings

magnetic9999

Canon EOS-20D

10/17/2002 12:14:02 PM · #58

i dont think it has to do with animals or not animals. i read George Orwell's Animal Farm and i wasn't confused .. I understood it was symbolic. but it was also very well done.

THere is a pic in the challenge of 2 mice going crazy .. THat pic does a really good job of representing greed and lust both and i dont care it's mice. in fact it's almost more intense that it's mice than people. . there are a couple of other animals pics that nail it okay although not as well and some that just flat out arent that well done.

for me it has to do with how well the pic is done and how well it really shows what it says it's showing. for example there's a shot called 'if looks could kill' .. that's weak, both as a photo and as a challenge pic. also 'the pride of joy' also doesnt really seem that "sinny" to me.

there are more others and i dont think that i should really be naming pics but i felt that it's impt to differentiate.

the shoehorning has to do with pics like those that arent really related and just kind of stretched to the challenge. someone could do a great pic for this challenge with an animal. a picture of a pig for greed comes to mind.

i like metaphors and symbols and representations myself. but it has to be well done and not just an extremely tenuous connection to get a decent score from me.

magnetic9999

Canon EOS-20D

Sigma 24-70mm f/2.8 EX Aspherical DF for Canon

10/17/2002 12:17:58 PM · #59

i think we all want it to be 2 things at once. gordon doesnt seem that inconsistent, but i'm sure that i do.

for the record, i would prefer it be heavier on the learning than the competition. but that might not be possible.

nonetheless it seems like since the dollar value of the prize here is so high, people might lighten up just a hair ; )..

Originally posted by Jak:
Gordon, I am thoroughly confused by your lack of consistency. In one post you agree that dpchallenge is [i]"isn't a 'play around and learn something' exercise. It is a 'take the best picture you can so that you win' competition." And yet in another post you say: "what I see as the point of this site - which is a contest that should improve your photography. It shouldn't limit you creatively or confine you to a really narrow set of options."

I think you represent the basic problem at this site: you want it to be two different things at one and the same time. To do this, you want to strip all meaning out of the words "competition" and "challenge."

To me this is a competition site, the point is to score as highly as possibly and to rate one's competitors against the rules of the challenge, not some wish-washy set of criteria that makes sense only in each person's head. That is why the wording of the challenge is of vital importance to me. The wording of the challenge is what drives my search for an entry, and if I cannot fit the criteria (using a reasonably liberal interpretation that uses common sense for the meaning of everyday words)I don't enter. That is also why I limit my scores for non-compliant entries to a 1-3 scale based on picture quality.

We hope -- sincerely hope --that we learn something through this exercise; I certainly have. But that is a side benefit only. For learning -- both in a creative way, or as a means to earn a living -- there are significantly better sites, with enormous resources both in print/online essays and with professional photographers willing to comment creatively on one's submissions.

This, however, is simply the best competition site, imo, and that is why I am here week after week.[/i]

10/17/2002 12:19:58 PM · #60

Originally posted by Gorpie:
You shouldnt look at photos to see whether they meet the challenge but look at the photo and see what emotions it draws from you, whether it was well taken and the like, the fact of whether or not it meets the challenge should be of minimal importance. Gbye darlings

Here we have it stated bluntly. The challenge is of no importance to this person.

Then why have a competitive challenge at all?

I agree with what gorpie said, that the most important thing is to "look at the photo and see what emotions it draws from you, whether it was well taken and the like" but only on non-competition sites. On competition sites, to ignore the terms of the competition is just plain dumb.

* This message has been edited by the author on 10/17/2002 12:17:55 PM.

* This message has been edited by the author on 10/17/2002 12:18:46 PM.

Sigma 50-500mm f/4.0-6.3 EX APO RF HSM for Olympus

10/17/2002 12:29:19 PM · #61

Originally posted by Jak:
Gordon, I am thoroughly confused by your lack of consistency. In one post you agree that dpchallenge is [i]"isn't a 'play around and learn something' exercise. It is a 'take the best picture you can so that you win' competition." And yet in another post you say: "what I see as the point of this site - which is a contest that should improve your photography. It shouldn't limit you creatively or confine you to a really narrow set of options."

I think you represent the basic problem at this site: you want it to be two different things at one and the same time. To do this, you want to strip all meaning out of the words "competition" and "challenge."

To me this is a competition site, the point is to score as highly as possibly and to rate one's competitors against the rules of the challenge, not some wish-washy set of criteria that makes sense only in each person's head. That is why the wording of the challenge is of vital importance to me. The wording of the challenge is what drives my search for an entry, and if I cannot fit the criteria (using a reasonably liberal interpretation that uses common sense for the meaning of everyday words)I don't enter. That is also why I limit my scores for non-compliant entries to a 1-3 scale based on picture quality.

[/i]

I don't think I have ever been inconsistent on this. Let me try again

The shots I take to learn from consist of things like jumping up and
down when shooting, or trying to break all the various guidelines for
composition or trying to shine the light source straight into the lens,
or making sure people are squinting at the sun when I take their pictures,
or really over/ under exposing and so on.

These sorts of shots explore the 'rules' or established conventions for
good pictures. They don't end up as good pictures and I certainly wouldn't
enter them for a challenge. But I learn what I like and don't like from
them, or what works and doens't work - then I try to use that later in my
'proper' pictures.

The second issue, which is entirely independent in my mind, hence not inconsistent
at all, is the overly literal, nit-picking approach some people take to the
challenge wording. For some voters there seems to be no room at all for anything
but an entirely literal meaning of the challenge. Anything else that doesn't fit
the first thing they think of gets a 1-3 vote. So we see discussions like
well, sin is a human thing - animals can't sin, not on topic.

The challenge is the theme we have to shoot to. That doesn't mean how someone
else interprets the theme from you is wrong. Nor does it mean that if you cannot
find the exact words to match the picture in your dictionary that the person is wrong.
It may mean you have to engage your brain and try to understand the perspective
of the photographer to see how they interpreted the challenge. I like and delight
in the entries that make me stop, think and look at the theme in a new way.

This does not mean that there 'is no challenge' or 'we should throw it away'
Random shots with a title that try to shoehorn it in get a low vote. But shots
that show some thought or a new perspective get high votes from me. I'd
just like people to vote with an open mind to new ideas, rather than trying
to classify everything down to as narrow a definition as possible. Be creative
in your viewing as well as your photography. Take great pictures that
explore the challenge theme, challenge the viewers ideas, delight the eyes and the
mind.

inspzil

Olympus E-510

10/17/2002 12:40:38 PM · #62

Thanks again Magnetic9999 for speaking my mind. I did have something to say, but I think you already said it. So I'll add this:
"yeah, what he said."

Gorpie

Fujifilm FinePix 2800Z

10/17/2002 12:47:03 PM · #63

Originally posted by Jak:
"I agree with what gorpie said, that the most important thing is to "look at the photo and see what emotions it draws from you, whether it was well taken and the like" but only on non-competition sites. On competition sites, to ignore the terms of the competition is just plain dumb."

I didn't quite mean to make it look liek you should totally disregard the challenge altogether and I do look for elements of the challenge and I also, possibly more than anything, look for a little thought involved in the photo. Sure, this is the 7 sins and sure, this is a photo of a pig representing greed and sure, its an okay photo but where is the thought involved cos all i see before me is a pig representing greed. It stirs my brain with thoughts that does.

jimmsp

Canon EOS-60D

Tamron SP 24-70mm F/2.8 Di VC USD for Nikon

10/17/2002 01:17:41 PM · #64

Originally posted by Gordon:

The challenge is the theme we have to shoot to. That doesn't mean how someone
else interprets the theme from you is wrong. Nor does it mean that if you cannot
find the exact words to match the picture in your dictionary that the person is wrong.
It may mean you have to engage your brain and try to understand the perspective
of the photographer to see how they interpreted the challenge. I like and delight
in the entries that make me stop, think and look at the theme in a new way.
........ Be creative in your viewing as well as your photography. Take great pictures that explore the challenge theme, challenge the viewers ideas, delight the eyes and the mind.
[/i]

This has been an interesting thread. I basically agree with the above.
But I'd like to ask Gordon (and anyone else) a question - do you believe that there can be pictures submitted that do not meet the challenge, even if I stretch my mind and allow for artistic license ?

* This message has been edited by the author on 10/17/2002 1:17:05 PM.

inspzil

Olympus E-510

Sigma 50-500mm f/4.0-6.3 EX APO RF HSM for Olympus

10/17/2002 01:42:04 PM · #65

Originally posted by jimmsp:

This has been an interesting thread. I basically agree with the above.
But I'd like to ask Gordon (and anyone else) a question - do you believe that there can be pictures submitted that do not meet the challenge, even if I stretch my mind and allow for artistic license

Since I qualify as "anyone else" I'll step up and say yes, i do believe that there are photos that do not meet the challenge in any way shape or form. Maybe some of that is in the way the challenges are selected that might be sort of a problem. Maybe there should be a little more description (in some cases) of what is expected. That might tone down some of the arguments about literal/figurative stuff. I still wish we could find out a challenge a week ahead of time. Maybe then we could iron out the details in the forums. Stricter topics don't yield worse pictures. I think F&V and pencil challenges showed that well. There will always be some bad ones no matter what. As long as I'm here, anyway (not that mine are ALWAYS bad).

thanks for your continued patronage
-Inspzil

indigo997

Nikon D70

10/17/2002 02:56:38 PM · #66

I think a big part of the issue is that just because YOU don't see the connection doesn't really mean that the photographer ignored the "terms of the competition". Maybe they thought long and hard about a creative way to interpret the challenge and then executed that idea with a technically perfect shot. Then you come along and decide that it doesn't meet your obvious idea of what the topic is so their thoughtful, well-executed shot gets a 3 from you. Does this seem fair? You are throwing out all other criteria for judging photography when you automatically give a low score to those that you don't think meet the challenge. Who benefits from that?

jimmsp

Canon EOS-60D

Tamron SP 24-70mm F/2.8 Di VC USD for Nikon

10/17/2002 03:22:28 PM · #67

Originally posted by indigo997:
I think a big part of the issue is that just because YOU don't see the connection doesn't really mean that the photographer ignored the "terms of the competition". Maybe they thought long and hard about a creative way to interpret the challenge and then executed that idea with a technically perfect shot. Then you come along and decide that it doesn't meet your obvious idea of what the topic is so their thoughtful, well-executed shot gets a 3 from you. Does this seem fair? You are throwing out all other criteria for judging photography when you automatically give a low score to those that you don't think meet the challenge. Who benefits from that?

I'll ask my question again. Do you think it is possible to have a picture submitted here that has nothing to do with the challenge, no matter how hard you or I might stretch "artistic interpretation"?
BTW - I've said nothing about scoring to this point.

10/17/2002 03:50:38 PM · #68

Originally posted by indigo997:
Who benefits from that?

The benefit received by the submitter is that they learn that if a well-educated, broadminded intelligent viewer like me cannot find ANY connection with the challenge, then they have clearly failed to make their point. On a competition site where voting is important, that is an important lesson to learn.

10/17/2002 04:02:16 PM · #69

Originally posted by Jak:
Originally posted by indigo997:
[i]Who benefits from that?

The benefit received by the submitter is that they learn that if a well-educated, broadminded intelligent viewer like me cannot find ANY connection with the challenge, then they have clearly failed to make their point. On a competition site where voting is important, that is an important lesson to learn.
[/i]

I think it is certainly resonable that if a 'well-educated, broadminded intelligent viewer'
cannot find a connection then the particular entry does not fit the challenge.

The problem I have is with the 'well-educated, narrow-minded intelligent viewer'
that goes out of their way to needlessly constrain the topic/ challenges for
some arbitary reason.

Every entry I've ever submitted I strongly believe either met or exceeded
the spirit of the challenge. I have not in any case ever submitted something
that I thought was 'off - topic' or a huge leap of logic to reach relevence
with the challenge topic.

Yet every week I get plenty of 'sorry doesn't meet the challenge' type
comments. I would consider myself a well-educated, broadminded intelligent photographer
so why the disconnect ?

* This message has been edited by the author on 10/17/2002 4:00:36 PM.

Canon EF 70-200mm f/4.0L USM

10/17/2002 04:10:14 PM · #70

Gordon, I can only speak for myself and that is all I ever do. I always sign my crits, including the ones where I claim the pic doesn't meet the challenge, so if you have ever received one from me, please let me know. I don't think you'll find me on your list.

paganini

Canon EOS-1D Mark II

10/17/2002 04:41:51 PM · #71

We need more "open minded, well-educated in the arts" types. I think the "well-educated" types here are "intellectual scientists/engineering" types who like structure, procedures, rules, etc. We need people who think outside of the box.

I know some people would give a very low score (1-3) for "not meeting the challenge", or what they think the challenge ought to be. SUcks, but it's true.

Originally posted by Gordon:
Originally posted by Jak:
[i]Originally posted by indigo997:
[i]Who benefits from that?

The benefit received by the submitter is that they learn that if a well-educated, broadminded intelligent viewer like me cannot find ANY connection with the challenge, then they have clearly failed to make their point. On a competition site where voting is important, that is an important lesson to learn.
[/i]

I think it is certainly resonable that if a 'well-educated, broadminded intelligent viewer'
cannot find a connection then the particular entry does not fit the challenge.

The problem I have is with the 'well-educated, narrow-minded intelligent viewer'
that goes out of their way to needlessly constrain the topic/ challenges for
some arbitary reason.

Every entry I've ever submitted I strongly believe either met or exceeded
the spirit of the challenge. I have not in any case ever submitted something
that I thought was 'off - topic' or a huge leap of logic to reach relevence
with the challenge topic.

Yet every week I get plenty of 'sorry doesn't meet the challenge' type
comments. I would consider myself a well-educated, broadminded intelligent photographer
so why the disconnect [/i]

spiderman

Canon EOS-D60

10/17/2002 04:50:57 PM · #72

Originally posted by Gordon:
...Every entry I've ever submitted I strongly believe either met or exceeded the spirit of the challenge. I have not in any case ever submitted something that I thought was 'off - topic' or a huge leap of logic to reach relevence with the challenge topic.

Yet every week I get plenty of 'sorry doesn't meet the challenge' type
comments...

as an example, let's look at your Garbage entry
Inebriated Focus

i'm sure the people who couldn't see the garbage inference had NO idea they were looking at a wine bottle - in fact, i caught on that it was a bottle only because of the title

IMO, pics like this get voted lower because, in spite of the thought and effort you made to shoot an excellent photo, there was indeed at least a small (not HUGE) leap of logic needed to make the connection --- and that's all it takes

a tiny shift in the perspective to make it apparent that it was a bottle, probably the "i dont get it"s go away, but obviously that would no longer be the shot you wanted

if you shoot the obvious - the cliche - you eliminate the uncertainty that introduces the "i don't get it" comments (not that i advocate the cliche - i'm just dropping my opinion on the table -- ps, i gave you a 6 despite the assist from the title :)