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01/07/2007 07:03:22 PM · #26 |
Originally posted by American_Horse:
What about the sensor's? Have you compared their strengths and weaknesses? |
It's widely believed that the Pentax K10D and Nikon D80 share the same sensor.
They're implementation is however slightly different. The D80 has been setup with stronger in-camera noise reduction and the K10D has been designed for more detail.
Noise levels and fine detail are a balancing act as detail is lost as smoothing is increased to blur noise.
Personally I like the Pentax approach as I prefer to control the amount of noise reduction through 3rd party programs.
bazz.
Message edited by author 2007-01-07 19:08:03. |
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01/07/2007 07:55:04 PM · #27 |
Thanks for all the info Garry!
I read that Pentax doesn't have USM yet, and I read that they have this "clutch" mechanism for quickly going into manual focus mode. Something like twisting the focus slightly. Can you elaborate on that...I don't quite understand what they mean. And Pentax seems to have so many lens lines, it's confusing to understand the "feature mapping".
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01/07/2007 08:16:40 PM · #28 |
There's been a lot written on dpreview about focussing problems with the Pentax K10 in low light, particularly when the battery charge is on the low side (though still showing full on the indicator). Just wondering whether users here have experienced this problem and whether it occurs with cameras like the Nikon D80 as well.
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01/07/2007 10:09:25 PM · #29 |
I know you're only researching now, but I would wait till after PMA 2007 (end of February) for a few reasons. First, you should know more about the Pentax zooms that will be coming out. It sounds like you want to have this new system (N or P) in place by the time the good weather rolls around and you need to be sure that the new P-zooms will be on the shelves when you need them to be. You'll also need to know how they perform, their sizes, and whether or not they're weather sealed. Performance tests could take some time and if you wind up with three lenses that are rather large to carry around on hikes you may find this not to be ideal for hiking.
Secondly, waiting till after PMA to make your decision will let you see what other manufacturers are bringing to market. Eg...Olympus has already come out with a very small and lightweight system that would be great to carry around on hikes. The E-400 (though not available in the US) will probably be replaced after PMA with its successor and available globally. The kit lenses for the 400 will be greatly scaled down versions of the 14-45 and 40-150mm kit lenses (a range of 28-300mm in 35mm speak), though this system will not be weather sealed and will most likely not have in-camera IS. However, it will give you a proven and successful dust remover...a great benefit for wilderness use. Also, the new E-400 may have live view, which may not interest you now, but the way it's implemented in the E-330 most are very happy with it in B-mode. (A mode that gets its image directly from the sensor and can enlarge a section of the VF image 10X for extremely accurate manual focusing...Great for macros!) You may not be able to get this kind of accuracy even with the large and bright VFs of N or P. Btw...all of Oly's lenses are weather sealed zooms, except for the kit lenses, 18-180 and 35mm macro, and they are of very high quality.
Imo, the lenses should be of utmost importance in your deciding on a new system. They will have more of a bearing on image quality, and most of the weight and bulk you'll be carrying around will reside in them.
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01/07/2007 10:28:59 PM · #30 |
THere is no easy answer, but those that live and die by the camera choice, the lens choice and image quality shoot Nikon or Canon. These days, about twice as many pros use Canon as Nikon equipment. 20 years ago that was probably the other way around then canon brought out the better AF system.
So since you are thinking long term, in cost of ownership at least, there are some other things to consider.
Canon and Nikon will be around (even though it is reputed canon has a corporate aim of putting Nikon out of business). Pentax and Oly and the rest have a very small portion of the camera market. very small. What this means to you is those companies have less capital to use to make new bodies and lenses. From what I understand, many of the pentax lenses are really tokina lenses. And if you ask those that can choose between tokina and canon (or nikon) there is a marked difference in the quality and image made with those 'cheaper' lenses. It also means fewer lenses overall to choose from, less resale value, smaller market to buy or sell on, etc. It all adds up to less choice for you.
Generally, the least expensive overall choice is still Canon - expecially since you have Canon now.
Why are you considering changing brands? Is it for IS alone? Why are you looking at Nikon VR lenses when you can get Canon IS lenses and not have to lose money changing brands?
Depending on what you want or how you shoot, a tripod is the best IS device and can be had for under $100 and works with every camera ever made.
Faster glass or better glass may make a bigger improvement to your images overall than IS will.
Better technique is free, and will improve all your images.
Or consider the canon 17-55 2.8 IS and 70-200 2.8 IS. You have the range covered, all IS and all good to great glass. As bodies advance you can keep your glass. IS means little on super wide, and the bigma at long focal lenghts needs lots of daylight so IS in the body won't do much.
If your shooting macro the extremely narrow DOF means using a tripod anyway, so IS/VR is not important.
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01/07/2007 10:37:18 PM · #31 |
Originally posted by Prof_Fate:
THere is no easy answer, but those that live and die by the camera choice, the lens choice and image quality shoot Nikon or Canon. These days, about twice as many pros use Canon as Nikon equipment. 20 years ago that was probably the other way around then canon brought out the better AF system.
So since you are thinking long term, in cost of ownership at least, there are some other things to consider.
Canon and Nikon will be around (even though it is reputed canon has a corporate aim of putting Nikon out of business). Pentax and Oly and the rest have a very small portion of the camera market. very small. What this means to you is those companies have less capital to use to make new bodies and lenses. From what I understand, many of the pentax lenses are really tokina lenses. And if you ask those that can choose between tokina and canon (or nikon) there is a marked difference in the quality and image made with those 'cheaper' lenses. It also means fewer lenses overall to choose from, less resale value, smaller market to buy or sell on, etc. It all adds up to less choice for you.
Generally, the least expensive overall choice is still Canon - expecially since you have Canon now.
Why are you considering changing brands? Is it for IS alone? Why are you looking at Nikon VR lenses when you can get Canon IS lenses and not have to lose money changing brands?
Depending on what you want or how you shoot, a tripod is the best IS device and can be had for under $100 and works with every camera ever made.
Faster glass or better glass may make a bigger improvement to your images overall than IS will.
Better technique is free, and will improve all your images.
Or consider the canon 17-55 2.8 IS and 70-200 2.8 IS. You have the range covered, all IS and all good to great glass. As bodies advance you can keep your glass. IS means little on super wide, and the bigma at long focal lenghts needs lots of daylight so IS in the body won't do much.
If your shooting macro the extremely narrow DOF means using a tripod anyway, so IS/VR is not important. |
Seriously, does Canon pay you big money to be their mouthing boy?
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01/07/2007 10:56:23 PM · #32 |
Originally posted by Prof_Fate:
THere is no easy answer, but those that live and die by the camera choice, the lens choice and image quality shoot Nikon or Canon. These days, about twice as many pros use Canon as Nikon equipment. 20 years ago that was probably the other way around then canon brought out the better AF system.
So since you are thinking long term, in cost of ownership at least, there are some other things to consider.
Canon and Nikon will be around (even though it is reputed canon has a corporate aim of putting Nikon out of business). Pentax and Oly and the rest have a very small portion of the camera market. very small. What this means to you is those companies have less capital to use to make new bodies and lenses. From what I understand, many of the pentax lenses are really tokina lenses. And if you ask those that can choose between tokina and canon (or nikon) there is a marked difference in the quality and image made with those 'cheaper' lenses. It also means fewer lenses overall to choose from, less resale value, smaller market to buy or sell on, etc. It all adds up to less choice for you.
Generally, the least expensive overall choice is still Canon - expecially since you have Canon now.
Why are you considering changing brands? Is it for IS alone? Why are you looking at Nikon VR lenses when you can get Canon IS lenses and not have to lose money changing brands?
Depending on what you want or how you shoot, a tripod is the best IS device and can be had for under $100 and works with every camera ever made.
Faster glass or better glass may make a bigger improvement to your images overall than IS will.
Better technique is free, and will improve all your images.
Or consider the canon 17-55 2.8 IS and 70-200 2.8 IS. You have the range covered, all IS and all good to great glass. As bodies advance you can keep your glass. IS means little on super wide, and the bigma at long focal lenghts needs lots of daylight so IS in the body won't do much.
If your shooting macro the extremely narrow DOF means using a tripod anyway, so IS/VR is not important. |
Although I'm not bad holding a camera, my hands are not steady in general. I want IS to counter that.
I also hate changing lenses. I loved my Sigma 18-125 (which broke recently, :( ), but it was a little to short, and it didn't have IS. My first thought was to buy the Sigma 18-200 OS that's coming out. My hesitation was the 1 year warranty and the fact that my Sigma broke internally after only 1.75 years. Add to that trepidation the fact that the lens is going to sell for around $500, will have even more parts to mechanically fail, ...
So the Nikon 18-200 which is well reviewed but scarce was a big motivation for looking at the Nikon. I considered the alpha, but I was really impressed with the bright and big Nikon viewfinder. Then I read about the K10D, where people claimed the viewfinder was even better than the Nikon, AND it had built in IS. Not to mention weather sealing, etc.
One last thing that interests me about the pentax. Their lenses appear to be smaller. That's a good weight savings and money savings since the y tend to also have smaller filter requirements. The pentax F2.8 macro lens is small, and takes 49mm filters, if I'm remembering that right.
But I hate to have to change systems. If I could get a Canon 40D, and it had built-in IS, I'd snatch it up. I will not be completely happy moving to a system where I can't use my beloved EF-S 10-22! Hence I will probably keep the Rebel XT and that lens in my bag as well.
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01/07/2007 11:02:59 PM · #33 |
Originally posted by Prof_Fate:
Depending on what you want or how you shoot, a tripod is the best IS device and can be had for under $100 and works with every camera ever made.
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Nooooooo... It's true that you can't beat a tripod for perfect stability, it's one of the most important pieces of equipment you should have. But you won't be happy with a $100 tripod if you use SLR cameras on it, even with little lightweight prime lenses. |
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01/08/2007 01:08:07 AM · #34 |
Originally posted by nshapiro:
I read that Pentax doesn't have USM yet, and I read that they have this "clutch" mechanism for quickly going into manual focus mode. Something like twisting the focus slightly. Can you elaborate on that...I don't quite understand what they mean. |
Don't be to concerned with it. It enables a quick shift from AF mode to MF mode without having to disengage AF on the camera body. Some people love it but I don't think I've ever used it.
The new zooms will have in-lens focusing motors as well as weather sealing and the current lens roadmap indicates availability of March '07. They have been given the * designation which is Pentax nomenclature for the Pro line of lenses.
Originally posted by nshapiro:
And Pentax seems to have so many lens lines, it's confusing to understand the "feature mapping". |
Its a long story but each suffix indicates the feature set available on the lens. It gets a little complicated due to the fact that some of the lenses are 30+ years old but because of backward compatibility they all still work on current dslrs.
The short version.....
K/M: only mechanical link. K usually better optically but M sill are very good lenses. -> Manual and aperture priority.
A: add electronic contacts -> Shutter priority and Program as well as Matrix metering (yes with AF cameras and any Pentax DSLR too).
F: like A with Autofocus with focal info to the body
FA: like F with MTF info (-> optical quality oriented program, depends on lens)
FAJ: low-end lenses. FA without aperture ring.
DA: FA made for APS sensor. Optimized for digital.
DFA: Like FA but optimized digital (-> these are full frame 24x36 lenses).
Originally posted by Prof_Fate:
THere is no easy answer, but those that live and die by the camera choice, the lens choice and image quality shoot Nikon or Canon. These days, about twice as many pros use Canon as Nikon equipment. 20 years ago that was probably the other way around then canon brought out the better AF system. |
McDonalds sells more burgers world wide than anyone else but I like the burgers from our local fish and chip shop.
Originally posted by Prof_Fate:
Canon and Nikon will be around (even though it is reputed canon has a corporate aim of putting Nikon out of business). Pentax and Oly and the rest have a very small portion of the camera market. very small. What this means to you is those companies have less capital to use to make new bodies and lenses. |
Pentax have been making slr's/dslrs longer than Canon and Nikon and were also the first Japanese camera maker to release a 35mm SLR. Fast forward 50+ years and they're still releasing new bodies and lenses every year or so while at the same time remaining profitable. Thats not to say their future is guaranteed but to presume anything else is crystal ball gazing and is pure speculation. The same could be said for any company given the right conditions.
Originally posted by Prof_Fate:
From what I understand, many of the pentax lenses are really tokina lenses. And if you ask those that can choose between tokina and canon (or nikon) there is a marked difference in the quality and image made with those 'cheaper' lenses. |
Actually Tokina is owned by Hoya and an MoU was recently released that Pentax and Hoya will be merging later this year so it's all the same company. You may also be interested to note that Hoya are the worlds largest supplier of lens blanks so that cheap Tokina glass that you mentioned could be the same glass thats being used in your current lenses. :)
Originally posted by Prof_Fate:
It also means fewer lenses overall to choose from, less resale value, smaller market to buy or sell on, etc. It all adds up to less choice for you. |
Over 200 made for film lenses and the largest APS-C lens lineup of current manufacturers. With the 3 new zooms mentioned earlier and new 35mm, 55mm, 200mm and 300mm primes on the roadmap for this year theres more than enough choice for the credit card with the large credit limit.
And keep in mind that resale value is a byproduct of supply and demand.
Its a smaller market but the demand is increasing meaning higher resale values. Some of the second hand lenses I bought just two years ago have more than doubled in price on Ebay due to an increasing number of new Pentax owners.
Originally posted by Prof_Fate:
Generally, the least expensive overall choice is still Canon - expecially since you have Canon now. |
In our country Canon is the most expensive overall choice yet still the most popular choice. I understand that Canon bodies are a lot cheaper in th US but looking at prices of comparable lenses on sites like B&H tells me that Canon is a lot more expensive in most cases.
Originally posted by Prof_Fate:
Why are you considering changing brands? Is it for IS alone? Why are you looking at Nikon VR lenses when you can get Canon IS lenses and not have to lose money changing brands?
Depending on what you want or how you shoot, a tripod is the best IS device and can be had for under $100 and works with every camera ever made.
Faster glass or better glass may make a bigger improvement to your images overall than IS will.
Better technique is free, and will improve all your images.
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Yeah I agree that a tripod with MLU and good shutter speed is the best way to get those super steady images but its not always practical to carry the extra weight of a tripod around all day. Image stabilisation is something I can personally live without but there are many situations where it can increase the ratio of keepers for a shoot.
Originally posted by Prof_Fate:
IS means little on super wide, and the bigma at long focal lenghts needs lots of daylight so IS in the body won't do much.
If your shooting macro the extremely narrow DOF means using a tripod anyway, so IS/VR is not important. |
Hmmmmmmmmm....
Your saying macros require a tripod and IS doesn't help long lenses ? I'm speechless.
bazz.
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01/08/2007 01:28:01 AM · #35 |
If I were you, I wouldn't change systems.
None of them make that much of a difference in the end resulting images.
You have awesome images, with the stuff you have. Think long and hard if an IS will really make that much of a difference. Maybe you could just do some grip exercises, or get canon IS glass.
I dunno, I don't think the brand matters. The reason I have Nikon and love it is cuz it fits in my hand best, and I can bang the cameras around pretty good, shoot in the rain etc. and not worry about them (cept my d70).
(and for you stat master Prof Fate the 2 professional sports games I sho t this week yielded equal black and white lenses...which doesn't matter, they're all getting published either way...next time I can count them if you want...wait I could take pictures instead of counting ridiculous things like that)
I would tell you not to switch, and if you do, it really won't matter which you switch to...unless one feels better. Your photography will be about the same either way. |
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01/08/2007 04:08:42 AM · #36 |
I think this has probably been mentioned ... but...
Also might be worth keeping in mind that while pentax's lens selection is perhaps slightly more limited (when you take into account the difficulty in obtaining some pentax products) there are a few new ones coming out that look fairly tasty. Here's a copy and paste from dpreview.
"Pentax has posted some very brief information about three new digital-only DA* (star) lenses which utilize built-in Supersonic motors for focusing and are likely to be environmentally sealed to match the recently announced K10D. The lenses are the DA* 16-50 mm F2.8 ED AL [IF], DA* 50-135 mm F2.8 ED [IF] and the DA* 60-250 mm F4 ED [IF]. On a digital SLR with a 1.5x FOV crop (such as the K10D) these lenses will provide an equivalent field-of-view of 24 - 75 mm, 75 - 202.5 mm and 90 - 375 mm. According to available information these lenses should be available in March 2007."
Message edited by author 2007-01-08 07:57:52. |
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01/10/2007 06:52:16 PM · #37 |
The latest issue of Popular Photography pits all the recent 10 MP SLRs against each other.
Edit: The article is not up on the website. It's in the February issue.
Message edited by author 2007-01-10 19:14:41.
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01/10/2007 07:21:53 PM · #38 |
Originally posted by Artyste:
As for the DPReview forums.. ignore them. Seriously. Find the threads that have people posting *actual* photos from the camera.. and not the 1 in 400 shots that have problems and then crying about it as if it's a full-time problem. |
you are correct. I regularly read dpreview and i feel the environment is so poisonous there. People are too finicky.
dpc and dpreview are two antipodal sites in terms of people.
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01/10/2007 07:37:07 PM · #39 |
Originally posted by nshapiro:
Edit: The article is not up on the website. It's in the February issue. |
Yea... but who won? :) |
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01/10/2007 08:01:44 PM · #40 |
There are results in a number of categories.
But "Overall":
1) Nikon D80
2) Canon XTi
3) Pentax 10D (tie)
3) Samsung GX-10 (tie)
5) Sony Alpha 100
Image Quality:
1) Nikon D80
2) Canon XTi
3) Pentax 10D (tie)
3) Samsung GX-10 (tie)
5) Sony Alpha 100
Note that they evaluated image quality the cameras using JPEG and they said: "RAW images from these cameras exceeded JPEG quality, and differences between images became less apparent."
For Pentax fans, "ease of Use":
1) Pentax 10D (tie)
1) Samsung GX-10 (tie)
3) Nikon D80
4) Canon XTi
5) Sony Alpha 100
For Canon fans, "System Flexibility":
1) Nikon D80 (tie)
1) Canon XTi (tie)
3) Pentax 10D (tie)
3) Samsung GX-10 (tie)
5) Sony Alpha 100
For Sony Fans, "Control":
1) Nikon D80
2) Sony Alpha 100
3) Canon XTi
4) Pentax 10D (tie)
4) Samsung GX-10 (tie)
Message edited by author 2007-01-10 20:06:09.
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01/10/2007 08:27:07 PM · #41 |
I find it entertaining that a few months ago, the Sony Alpha was their "Camera of the Year."
I was also pretty damn excited when they tested the K10D and had extremely high praise for it.
For me, with the XTi being way to small, it was between the K10D and the D80. I shoot alot in the snow, dirt and rain, so the weather sealing on the K10D was the deciding factor, but really, I could have gone either way.
The knock on the K10D IQ is with its jpg quality; specifically, they're too soft in default mode. Simple fix there: turn up the in camera sharpening, sharpen them in PP (and the jpgs sharpen nicely) or shoot RAW. I'm not sure I get the 'control' category. I suppose its because WB and ISO are accessed through menus (though not buried in them)
Message edited by author 2007-01-10 20:28:13.
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01/10/2007 10:51:18 PM · #42 |
Originally posted by option:
I find it entertaining that a few months ago, the Sony Alpha was their "Camera of the Year."
I was also pretty damn excited when they tested the K10D and had extremely high praise for it.
For me, with the XTi being way to small, it was between the K10D and the D80. I shoot alot in the snow, dirt and rain, so the weather sealing on the K10D was the deciding factor, but really, I could have gone either way.
The knock on the K10D IQ is with its jpg quality; specifically, they're too soft in default mode. Simple fix there: turn up the in camera sharpening, sharpen them in PP (and the jpgs sharpen nicely) or shoot RAW. I'm not sure I get the 'control' category. I suppose its because WB and ISO are accessed through menus (though not buried in them) |
The control issue is how many parameters you can control. The section on the K10D control starts "The K10D doesn't have quite the smorgasbord of shooting and editing options of the Canon or Nikon, but still offers plenty."
It's not the buttons. K10D took top honors on "Ease of Use".
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01/10/2007 10:58:33 PM · #43 |
But how's the long exposure noise, and how's the in camera noise reduction? The 350D was adequate, not much else I could say...
Option, have you done any very long exposures on your k10d yet? (10-200 minutes)
I think I want the K10D for the ability to use the 31mm limited with it, that is if I decide to get a DSLR again. |
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01/10/2007 11:05:19 PM · #44 |
Originally posted by nshapiro:
The control issue is how many parameters you can control. The section on the K10D control starts "The K10D doesn't have quite the smorgasbord of shooting and editing options of the Canon or Nikon, but still offers plenty."
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Thats weird.
How did the Canon "not" finish in 4th place ?
In terms of ISO selection, WB overide options, exposure compensation range, RAW format selection and jpeg quality level, the Canon has less control than the camera's below it. Sure they're not make or break features but it's hard to work out how they actually came up with their rating system for "Control".
bazz. |
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01/11/2007 12:32:37 AM · #45 |
Originally posted by MadMan2k:
Option, have you done any very long exposures on your k10d yet? (10-200 minutes) |
Nope, but some of the people over on the pentax slr forum at dpreview have. Looked fine to me... but it wasnt something I paid close attention to either..
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01/22/2007 10:16:20 PM · #46 |
Originally posted by nshapiro:
Thanks for all the info Garry!
I read that Pentax doesn't have USM yet, and I read that they have this "clutch" mechanism for quickly going into manual focus mode. Something like twisting the focus slightly. Can you elaborate on that...I don't quite understand what they mean. And Pentax seems to have so many lens lines, it's confusing to understand the "feature mapping". |
I have a *ist DL, you are referring to the slider switch on the camera body right under the lens mount, it is a slider marked AF in the lower position and MF in the upper position, once you set the Auto Focus on your subject you simply slide the switch up into MF focus and reframe your shot and shoot. If you want a subject to be in focus off to one side of the frame (for example) out of the autofocus target area, when you shoot it will be focused where ever it was set and will not change. I am one of the people that LOVE this feature. It is ultra quick and simple to switch back and forth and no menus to scroll through and set and reset. Hope this helps.
Jack |
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01/22/2007 10:28:50 PM · #47 |
Originally posted by jackal9:
Originally posted by nshapiro:
Thanks for all the info Garry!
I read that Pentax doesn't have USM yet, and I read that they have this "clutch" mechanism for quickly going into manual focus mode. Something like twisting the focus slightly. Can you elaborate on that...I don't quite understand what they mean. And Pentax seems to have so many lens lines, it's confusing to understand the "feature mapping". |
I have a *ist DL, you are referring to the slider switch on the camera body right under the lens mount, it is a slider marked AF in the lower position and MF in the upper position, once you set the Auto Focus on your subject you simply slide the switch up into MF focus and reframe your shot and shoot. If you want a subject to be in focus off to one side of the frame (for example) out of the autofocus target area, when you shoot it will be focused where ever it was set and will not change. I am one of the people that LOVE this feature. It is ultra quick and simple to switch back and forth and no menus to scroll through and set and reset. Hope this helps.
Jack |
Thanks for the info. That doesn't exactly sound like what they described, but I have nothing more to go on and I forgot to look at this when I was in B&H (I was in a hurry to go out and shoot)! FWIW, you don't have to go to a menu to switch to MF on any SLR I've used. It's just a switch on the lens. Even on my non-SLR Canon S1, it's a pushbutton near the lens of the the camera.
What I hate about the buttons on my Rebel XT is the DOF preview--I have trouble finding that quickly with my fingers. I did like the way Pentax did it on the 10D -- it's on the power rocker switch. Except that the guy in B&H said sometimes when you release it, the switch bounces and it turns the camera off!
Message edited by author 2007-01-22 22:29:26.
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01/22/2007 10:31:26 PM · #48 |
Originally posted by nshapiro:
I did like the way Pentax did it on the 10D -- it's on the power rocker switch. Except that the guy in B&H said sometimes when you release it, the switch bounces and it turns the camera off! |
I use this feature quite often on my K100D and never had it accidentally turn the camera off.
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01/22/2007 10:44:28 PM · #49 |
Originally posted by lesgainous:
never had it accidentally turn the camera off. |
Me either.
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01/22/2007 11:17:56 PM · #50 |
Pentax is currently my most highly recommended camera for those who will be happy with a single body for a long time.
Reasons:
Pentax 50mm f/1.4 (very cheap and seriously sweet)
Pentax/Tokina 12-24 f/4 (almost as wide as the Canon 10-22 thanks to 1.5X crop and still very decent)
Pentax/Tokina 16-50 f/2.8 (equivalent to a 24-75 f/2.8...)
Pentax/Tokina 10-17mm fisheye ZOOM. ('nuff said)
Once you get to longer travel lenses, the third party lenses do quite well too.
As for camera features, it's got enough unless you need more FPS.
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