Expert Editing Rules Point of View

Tamron SP AF 28-75mm f/2.8 XR Di for Canon

01/02/2007 11:15:48 AM · #1

This is my POV.

There are now three levels of editing. Has anyone noticed? I wonder.

Basic, Advanced, and Expert.

I am FOR the Expert Rules Editing. I know there are some who are AGAINST it.

I see alot of insecure people in DPC not appreciateing the fact that there is yet another way to do things. Because of this fact, this makes DPC alot more competative with other sites, and more appealing to people like myself.

What I have read is people submitting images under the Expert Rules flag, and get pissed off when someone else tells them that their image DNMC, or because they submitted an Advanced edit in the Expert edit challenge and was given a low score.

Expert Editing is a tool for those that 'can' manipulate the digital file to look like something else.

If you were a painter, you would want to use the latest paints and brushes to get your ideas across.

If you were a sculpter, you would want the latest chisels and hammers to get your ideas across.

If you were a whittler, you would want the latest knives and wood to get your idea across.

Just a reminder, this place is called DPChallenge, not DPEasy. Hell, the word 'challenge' should tell you something right away. Expert Editng is not easy to some, it is a 'challenge'.

Whether it is a brush, paint, knife, or your computer, this third level of editing is a challenge pure and simple, to see if you can manipulate the digital file to get your idea across.

If your just shooting your image straight from the camera, and are comfortable in doing so, then keep it up. But, don't blame the Expert Rules on your short commings with digtal manipulation.

Don't submit to the Expert Rules challenge if you don't have a clue and if you don't want to be given unwanted comments.

Do submit to the Expert Rules challenge if you are trying differant editing techniques and want constructive critisisism (sp).

Stop whineing! Know your strengths and weaknesses (Look up the Peter Principle), and support this editing level for all of DPC.

I am whole heartedly FOR the Expert Rules.

Rock on Langdon.

Now open for expert disscussion for those brave enough to enter a plea.

Canon EOS-20D

01/02/2007 11:25:03 AM · #2

Originally posted by American_Horse:

I see alot of insecure people in DPC not appreciateing the fact that there is yet another way to do things.

I'm sorry but I keep seeing statements like this and it's just total horseshit. Not liking something doesn't have anything to do with whether or not you yourself can do it or even want to do it. There are plenty of things that I like and appreciate that I can't even begin to do (and plenty of things that I *can* do that I don't like). It's great and all that you love and adore the new rules but I'm tired of seeing these sweeping generalizations about how the people who don't love digital art are only insecure or scared or angry that they can't do it. Not everyone WANTS to do it or LIKES it and, especially during a trial period, are going to comment that way. If you don't like it, then tell the SC to stop encouraging people to voice their opinion. And tell the people in the forums to stop begging for comments. And yes, stop the whining already.

Phil

Canon EOS-7D

Tamron SP AF 17-50mm f/2.8 Di II LD Aspherical (IF) for Canon

01/02/2007 11:27:05 AM · #3

Originally posted by mk:

I'm sorry but I keep seeing statements like this and it's just total horseshit.

I love you.

nards656

Tamron SP AF 24-135mm f/3.5-5.6 AD Aspherical IF for Canon

01/02/2007 11:28:09 AM · #4

Just curious if I'm missing something...

The thread title is "Advanced Editing Rules Pont of view", but your discussion is all about Expert Rules.

Is it just a thread title "oops", or am I missing your point?

By the way, as a side thought, you seem to think that only those who USE the Expert Editing Rules should enter that challenge. I don't make that connection. There have been MANY winners in Advanced Editing challenges that were completely legal for a Basic Editing entry. There's no "requirement" to do something to take advantage of the Expert Editing Rules in order to enter it; it's just that you CAN.

01/02/2007 11:30:42 AM · #5

Originally posted by nards656:

I can't spell, I can't think, I need coffee.

Sorry, early morning for me.

should of been Expert Editing Rules Point of View

Canon 12x IS USM (S3 IS built-in Lens) -- 36-432mm (35mm EQ)

01/02/2007 11:31:35 AM · #6

Originally posted by nards656:

J

By the way, as a side thought, you seem to think that only those who USE the Expert Editing Rules should enter that challenge.

Read it again.

GeneralE

Canon PowerShot S3 IS

01/02/2007 11:33:42 AM · #7

Changed the title for you.

Canon RF 24-70mm f/2.8 L IS

01/02/2007 11:34:46 AM · #8

I just don't like the term "Expert Editing Rules." I think it should simply be changed to "Digital Art - Anything Goes". That creates a separation between typical photography and using photoshop to create something different than typical photography. I think there is room for both here, but I don't think they should mix. In my opinion, digital art (some of what we see produced under expert editing rules) and digital photography aren't necessarily the same thing.

kirbic

Canon EOS R5

01/02/2007 11:35:30 AM · #9

I'll put my two cents in. My one submission to Expert rules could have been submitted under Advanced. It's not that I don't have confidence or skills to use the Expert rules (hell, much of the multiple-image related stuff in Expert is stuff that I was advocating for including in Advanced several years ago). It's just that some shots don't need those tools. It's perfectly acceptable to submit a shot editied within Basic Rules to an Advanced challenge, so why is it a no-no to submit a shot edited within Advanced (or even Basic) rules in an Expert Editing challenge?
In the end, the tools are there to be used if you need them, but use of them is not required. I find it curious, and mildly disconcerting that some folks would choose to vote down or comment negatively on images that they don't feel were highly edited. A finished work should stand on it's own merit. If it has defects that could have been corrected with Expert Editing, then by all means those deserve comment, but a beautifully seen and shot, carefully edited and well-presented shot is always so, no matter the techniques used.

01/02/2007 11:36:07 AM · #10

Originally posted by GeneralE:

Changed the title for you.

That was quick. I just asked for it to be changed.

Thanks.

Sony 24-70mm F4 Vario-Tessar T* FE OSS

01/02/2007 11:37:33 AM · #11

Originally posted by kirbic:

In the end, the tools are there to be used if you need them, but use of them is not required. I find it curious, and mildly disconcerting that some folks would choose to vote down or comment negatively on images that they don't feel were highly edited. A finished work should stand on it's own merit. If it has defects that could have been corrected with Expert Editing, then by all means those deserve comment, but a beautifully seen and shot, carefully edited and well-presented shot is always so, no matter the techniques used.

What I see happening in the Expert Editing challenges is the creation of images where the post processing IS the impact. I'm not saying that it has to be, but a lot of entries are going this way.

posthumous

Canon EOS-40D

Canon EF 50mm f/1.8 II

01/02/2007 11:39:29 AM · #12

Originally posted by jmsetzler:

I think there is room for both here, but I don't think they should mix.

Whereas it's precisely this mix that I find interesting. I think of it as an exploration of the boundary. And why shouldn't a site that is about topic X explore the boundaries of topic X?

Bear_Music

Samsung Galaxy S24 Ultra

01/02/2007 11:41:28 AM · #13

Originally posted by kirbic:

I find it curious, and mildly disconcerting that some folks would choose to vote down or comment negatively on images that they don't feel were highly edited. A finished work should stand on it's own merit. If it has defects that could have been corrected with Expert Editing, then by all means those deserve comment, but a beautifully seen and shot, carefully edited and well-presented shot is always so, no matter the techniques used.

AMEN, Brother Fritz! Sing it from the mountaintops. I think it's insane that some people are not scoring "simple" images high just because they are (apparently) not making use of the "expert rules".

R.

Canon EF 24-70mm f/2.8L USM

01/02/2007 11:41:45 AM · #14

Originally posted by posthumous:

Originally posted by jmsetzler:
I think there is room for both here, but I don't think they should mix.

Whereas it's precisely this mix that I find interesting. I think of it as an exploration of the boundary. And why shouldn't a site that is about topic X explore the boundaries of topic X?

I don't think "Topic X" includes digital art. That's just my view.

Ben

Canon EOS-30D

01/02/2007 11:47:22 AM · #15

First I'd like to echo what MK said so eloquently.

My opinion lies somewhere between keeping expert and stopping it.
While i feel there is no problem with having expert rules and as Kirbic said, you can use them if you need them.
But images that are basically digital are simply not to my taste at all, there not why i come to DPC and they show little to no photographic skills to me at all. All they show is that, that user can do a complex cut and paste in photoshop.

Tamron SP AF 17-50mm f/2.8 Di II LD Aspherical (IF) for Canon

01/02/2007 11:49:31 AM · #16

.......

Message edited by author 2007-01-02 11:53:30.

Phil

Canon EOS-7D

01/02/2007 11:53:18 AM · #17

Originally posted by kirbic:

Pretty much echoing Robert here. Two of my highest votes in this challenge look to me like they didn't even take advantage of the new rules (one even looks like basic editing). The end result was so powerful to me that they didn't need to. Now don't get me wrong, I am not deliberately voting the ones using the new rules low in this challenge but the finished product on these two images just couldn't be outdone no matter the editing.

Tamron SP AF 17-50mm f/2.8 Di II LD Aspherical (IF) for Nikon

01/02/2007 11:54:53 AM · #18

Ya know, it isn't just about copying and pasting.

HDR falls into the Expert Editing realm as well.

levyj413

Apple iPhone 15 Pro Max

01/02/2007 11:57:43 AM · #19

I don't think it's "anything goes" and I don't think expert editing necessarily leads to digital art.

On the first point, I know I've seen posts by some SC.

On the second point, that's my understanding of why the SC put in the point about voting according to whether we think something remains photographic in nature. It's then up to us to decide what that means when we vote.

Pedro

Nikon D200

Nikon AF Zoom-Nikkor 70-200mm f/2.8 VR DG IF-ED

01/02/2007 11:59:17 AM · #20

from the rules:

Originally posted by The Rules:

Please remember, however, that this is a photography contest. You are encouraged to keep your entries photographic in nature, and voters are encouraged to rate entries accordingly.

I'm pretty sure digital art wasn't the intended idea...

Message edited by author 2007-01-02 12:00:10.

Darkend_Sword

01/02/2007 11:59:47 AM · #21

Being new to the whole digital editing, it helps to have the free rein. I can experiment with different tools and learn, as well, as get comments on how I could have done better. Also, I love seeing the editing style of so many.

Honestly, I have had more comment's on this entry and most are wonderful, helpful comments. I say keep "Expert Rules." Its a treat just like "Free Study."

glad2badad

Apple iPhone 16 Pro

Lensbaby Sweet 35 Optic

01/02/2007 12:06:45 PM · #22

Originally posted by jmsetzler:

I just don't like the term "Expert Editing Rules." I think it should simply be changed to "Digital Art - Anything Goes".

I agree.

Originally posted by jmsetzler:

What I see happening in the Expert Editing challenges is the creation of images where the post processing IS the impact. I'm not saying that it has to be, but a lot of entries are going this way.

And I think that is the perception of many, that the 'Expert Editing' challenges are about extremes and using tools to create elaborate digital compositions. Anything less is not up to par, or 'Expert' level.

The point made of entering 'Basic' photos in 'Advanced' is valid IMO, but again, I think people are expecting much more in 'Expert'.

As for what

mk said - I agree 110%!