Suggested New Editing Rules - DPChallenge Forums

06/04/2003 02:50:19 PM · #51

Originally posted by Sonifo:

It is all about taking the best photo, not about who does the best psp editing.

and this has always been the crux of the disagrement.

Many people seem to believe that dpchallenge should be to use a film analogy, like dropping your prints off at walmart and entering the result. The picture taking ends with pressing the shutter.

Then there are the other faction that look to the history of photography and fine art photography in particular, where the whole process of taking the best photo starts when the shutter is pressed.
The large part of the skill of those regarded as masters of photography, such as Weston or Adams and their ilk produced the majority of the real magic of their work in the darkroom. The whole process began with taking the best possible photo and finished with producing the best final version.

I've always disliked the walmart approach.

In the film courses I'm taking just now we get machine proofs made, which are essentially equivalent to what people enter here on dpc. Some slight colour balancing has been done, maybe some contrast adjustment.

I've then seen these film negatives have the equivalent of thousands of dollars worth of aditional editing work done on them, all in the film darkroom to produce the final print. This includes removing dust or scratches, changing exposure balance across the negative, recolouring or tinting areas, removing dandruff from a shoulder, painting out hairs on skin etc for portraits, fixing blemishes, and so on... this is all standard film work.

Message edited by author 2003-06-04 14:54:26.

06/04/2003 02:50:47 PM · #52

hmmm, maybe im just unclear of the general definition of digital art. perhaps im picturing something entirely different than what everyone else is. lemme pic you brain mav--what is your idea of digital art? :)

06/04/2003 02:57:22 PM · #53

//www.deviantart.com/deviation/2073850

That's digital art.
Some of what we're already allowed to do is digital art as well, and sometimes it does well, sometimes it crashes and burns.

I think the fear is going the way of deviantart.com - where half the things they submit have been so grossly altered as to not look a thing like they came out of the camera - not a hue shift, but a picture shift.

06/04/2003 02:58:57 PM · #54

As a couple of examples of what John and I mean, here are two pictures that I spent about 1 hour on each of additional processing work, after doing the basic kinds of dpc legal adjustments. This is the sort of work that I'd like to see allowed for dpc (click for larger versions)

This is certainly not what I consider digital art.

Probably over 100 adjustments and edits

Many layers, dodging, burning and some spot editing

06/04/2003 03:01:24 PM · #55

Originally posted by mavrik:

Urm, maybe I'm way off base here ,but that looks entirely computer generated. What does it have to do with photography ?

06/04/2003 03:04:16 PM · #56

Originally posted by Gordon:

I've then seen these film negatives have the equivalent of thousands of dollars worth of aditional editing work done on them, all in the film darkroom to produce the final print. This includes removing dust or scratches, changing exposure balance across the negative, recolouring or tinting areas, removing dandruff from a shoulder, painting out hairs on skin etc for portraits, fixing blemishes, and so on... this is all standard film work.

everything you mentioned is about the extent that i do if necessary to my ads. they all involve people, and even tho they are pretty people, they arent perfect. im not talking severe airbrushing or anything, just simply the things you mentioned.

to mav--i dont even have to click that link to know what you are saying--but that isnt the point! i hardly think that allowing the basics of photography into our editing rules would turn us into deviant art. :|

Jak

Fujifilm FinePix S602Z

06/04/2003 03:06:07 PM · #57

I don't think Gordon has characterized this correctly at all. There is no "shoot and drop off at Walmart" attitude here that I know of. DPC operates under a third model.

Like most of the regulars here, I am sure, I take full advantage of full-image editing to adjust brightness/contrast, tonal values, colour balance etc etc etc. A million things we can already do under the rules that do not in any way qualify under the "Walmart" model.

If I want to spot-edit and play with specific areas of my images, I know I can submit those images to any number of other sites.

Message edited by author 2003-06-04 15:06:51.

06/04/2003 03:12:37 PM · #58

//www.dpchallenge.com/image.php?IMAGE_ID=17739

ok, my own shot. LOL

It's the full-image stuff that I agree isn't bad.

But you are missing my answer - allow EVERYTHING. Forget DQ requests, let's just take and make the best pic available. I'm not being facetious - let's go with it.

06/04/2003 03:13:34 PM · #59

Originally posted by Jak:

Like most of the regulars here, I am sure, I take full advantage of full-image editing to adjust brightness/contrast, tonal values, colour balance etc etc etc. A million things we can already do under the rules that do not in any way qualify under the "Walmart" model.

That is precisely what gets done in the 'walmart' model. An operator looks at the prints and tweaks full image parameters for the print. If you are unhappy about what they've done you can even ask them to tweak those full image parameters again. It is exactly the same model as done here, as is used at a 1 hour photo lab.

hey toast

06/04/2003 03:16:58 PM · #60

Yes, but it sounds like some people here are afraid to do it whether or not it's DPC legal. All I can say is that's sad. Pick up a Photoshop for Photography book. Take a good photography course. You'll soon see regardless of digital or film how much POST PROCESSING goes into a finished product. To think that post processing will hinder one's ability to compose, expose and capture a photograph is absurd. All the great images you see on film aren't right from the camera, no where near it. I've read about guys that even take on the task of masking negatives to combine different elements from multiple negatives. Oh but then it would be considered great photography no?

Message edited by author 2003-06-04 15:17:59.

Jak

Fujifilm FinePix S602Z

06/04/2003 03:18:00 PM · #61

Originally posted by Gordon:

With one over-riding difference. Here the photographer makes those adjustments, has full artistic control and doesn't stop until the photographer is thoroughly satisfied. In your model, someone else does it, and even if you ask nicely I am sure they won't keep tweaking things back and forth forever. A very different thing indeed.

06/04/2003 03:19:26 PM · #62

Originally posted by hey toast:

I can likely use PS as well as you. I'm not afraid of using it and I use Retouchpro to further my editing skills. I think it turns dpc into da and I don't want to do that.

bod

06/04/2003 03:25:04 PM · #63

Originally posted by Alecia:

i hardly think that allowing the basics of photography into our editing rules would turn us into deviant art. :|

True, but to me the basics of photography are shutter speed, aperture, composition, using available light, etc. The things I had no idea about when I first joined!

I don't believe I would have improved as much as I feel I have over the last 6 months had I had the knowledge that I could just fix a few problems later. I'm very glad that I was forced to develop my camera control first.

I'm still sitting on the fence. If the rules change, so be it. I would ask that they are left alone on the open challenges for the sake of the beginners, and that something is written to point out to them that they must get the hang of the camera before the editor if they want to improve.

buck4free

RCA CDS6300

06/04/2003 03:31:33 PM · #64

I used to be a little disgruntled about the fact that no minor spot editing was allowed. Now I share the opinion that our PORTFOLIOS are the 'perfect' place to be displaying what we consider to be our 'perfected' work. As such, I'm often sourly dissapointed that I don't see more varied work when I'm browsing portfolios! I dig thru profiles often, looking for photos that weren't challenge related, or other art that isn't necessarily photographic. On average, there is little more than a rehashing of the challenge submissions. Too sad!!

06/04/2003 03:32:30 PM · #65

Originally posted by bod:

Originally posted by Alecia:
i hardly think that allowing the basics of photography into our editing rules would turn us into deviant art. :|

True, but to me the basics of photography are shutter speed, aperture, composition, using available light, etc. The things I had no idea about when I first joined!

I don't believe I would have improved as much as I feel I have over the last 6 months had I had the knowledge that I could just fix a few problems later. I'm very glad that I was forced to develop my camera control first.

I'm still sitting on the fence. If the rules change, so be it. I would ask that they are left alone on the open challenges for the sake of the beginners, and that something is written to point out to them that they must get the hang of the camera before the editor if they want to improve.

But take a basic B&W photography class. You'll learn a whole lot about developing and actually finishing a print beyond the technical camera settings. Those are more detailed than the gross controls currently allowed in the rules.

06/04/2003 03:34:09 PM · #66

Originally posted by Jak:

With one over-riding difference. Here the photographer makes those adjustments, has full artistic control and doesn't stop until the photographer is thoroughly satisfied.

So why cripple that process ?

06/04/2003 03:37:00 PM · #67

Originally posted by mavrik:

I can likely use PS as well as you. I'm not afraid of using it and I use Retouchpro to further my editing skills. I think it turns dpc into da and I don't want to do that.

I had a look at retouchpro. I don't see anything there that is in the spirit of what John is suggesting.

06/04/2003 03:37:55 PM · #68

Originally posted by bod:

you are right of course, i meant the basics of photographic editing--or post processing. and i agree with you again in that, if you notice my very first post i mentioned that i am careful to be aware of all of the elemnts you mentioned when i am shooting--things that i learned from dpc (and reading of course). so yes, i also think that the open challenges should not be changed--i have learned an immense amount in the past year because of the format of dpc--but i am ready for the next level--mastering the processing, the polish, the finished product. thats why i think it would be cool to allow it in the members challenge. it would be like the advanced class if we were in school! same premise, just more intricate! :) i dont want to learn how to create digital art, i want to learn how to perfect my photgraphs in the manner of the masters--and i feel like if i learned so much as a beginner photographer with the standard dpc rules--imagine how even more wonderful the same pics could be if we learned the next level?

06/04/2003 03:42:32 PM · #69

I mention retouchpro not as "take a photo and edit it real good" - that's devart. I mention RTP as a place that I can go to work on my editing skills. IE DPC teaches us, but it doesn't have to teach us editing, there are other places that do it better than dpc ever could.

It's a bit of a side argument, but I think your post leads us astray on purpose.

The original argument is to allow spot editing - I have said multiple times I'm all for it, or all for it in member challenges. It settles all this the right way - leave it to voters. If you guys are right, things will likely change a bit, better or worse. If I'm right, most of the voters will shoot down the dev art style crap and we'll all be happy anyways.

Think kiwi's triptych and the Prac Jokes challenge though - simple additions making each shot much better. How can you limit it like John does? Just allow anything. It creates better pics, which IS the goal.

paganini

Canon EF 70-200mm f/4.0L USM

06/04/2003 03:47:19 PM · #70

Post before and after photos would be good.. can't really tell what you did to them...

Originally posted by Gordon:

paganini

Canon EF 70-200mm f/4.0L USM

06/04/2003 03:48:21 PM · #71

#3 will disqualify MOST of the submissions on DPC.

Why? Because most submissions i have seen are overly sharpened when compared to film photographs. They have "halos" around the edges.

Originally posted by jmsetzler:

I feel that the editing rules for challenges should be as follows:

Rule 1: No composite images. You must work from a single photograph.

Rule 2: You may not add any elements to the photograph that were not there in the original image.

Rule 3: Your photograph must not appear to be digitally manipulated in any way. It should look like a photograph.

***

I believe that these rules would allow unlimited editing and maintain the 'photographic' quality of the submissions.

06/04/2003 03:52:37 PM · #72

Originally posted by mavrik:

DPC teaches us, but it doesn't have to teach us editing, there are other places that do it better than dpc ever could.

(man i cant stop!) ok, i wholeheartedly disagree! a year ago--i could have had a million different places to learn the basics of photography instead of dpc--but i chose this place for the community and the diversity and talent. i have a feeling i wouldnt have developed nearly as fast anywhere else--shoot, i took 2 years of film and video and barely could remember shutter speeds and aperatures! yet a year later here--and i barely have to think about it anymore, i just know! so why wouldnt the same effect come from learning editing here? you would learn first hand not only the processes--but the instant effect on a vast variety of real people that you communicate with, which i think is the best teacher of all.

bod

06/04/2003 03:52:57 PM · #73

Originally posted by Gordon:

So do you start "dodging and burning" in week one, or do you build up to it as you develop? (Excuse the unintentional pun!)

06/04/2003 03:53:57 PM · #74

Originally posted by paganini:

Post before and after photos would be good.. can't really tell what you did to them...

I plan to if I get some free time this evening.