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12/12/2006 04:24:15 PM · #26 |
Originally posted by RonB:
Ergo, at least in the eyes of the Supreme Court, a Christmas tree is not a Christian symbol, nor is the menorah a Jewish religious symbol per se, if used in a secular or mixed context. |
Well, I don't see that as a direct interpretation. More so, the presenceof such symbols do not in and of themselves equate to an endorsement of Christian, Jewish or other beliefs.
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12/12/2006 04:57:03 PM · #27 |
Don't know if anyone mentioned it, but the airport put the trees back today.
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12/12/2006 04:58:10 PM · #28 |
right - I don't see anything that says a Christmas tree isn't a Christmas symbol, just that it isn't an active endorsement of Christianity to put one up.
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12/12/2006 05:12:35 PM · #29 |
Originally posted by idnic:
Don't know if anyone mentioned it, but the airport put the trees back today. |
I am picturing the TSA staff taking down trees, putting up trees, etc, while a group of jihadists slips through the unguarded security gates... |
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12/12/2006 05:14:59 PM · #30 |
Originally posted by Art Roflmao:
Originally posted by idnic:
Don't know if anyone mentioned it, but the airport put the trees back today. |
I am picturing the TSA staff taking down trees, putting up trees, etc, while a group of jihadists slips through the unguarded security gates... |
Yeah, the stupid don't deserve to be free do they? |
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12/12/2006 05:18:24 PM · #31 |
Originally posted by David Ey:
Yeah, the stupid don't deserve to be free do they? |
Hmmm... rhetorical? Sarcasm? Opinion? |
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12/12/2006 05:50:28 PM · #32 |
Originally posted by Art Roflmao:
I am picturing the TSA staff taking down trees, putting up trees, etc, while a group of jihadists slips through the unguarded security gates... |
Rhetorical? Sarcasm? Opinion?
Seriously, you don't think the exact same people are employed for both security and maintenance, do you? |
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12/12/2006 05:59:15 PM · #33 |
Originally posted by Gordon:
right - I don't see anything that says a Christmas tree isn't a Christmas symbol, just that it isn't an active endorsement of Christianity to put one up. |
At my house we spend a cozy evening decorating the tree and drinking egg nog. Then we go out back and slaughter a couple of sacrifical lambs, stone a prostitute and try to convert a couple passerby's.
The holiday is what you make of it. |
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12/12/2006 07:02:13 PM · #34 |
| You like to watch homos naked? Everybody to their own I guess. |
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12/12/2006 07:05:13 PM · #35 |
Originally posted by Art Roflmao:
Originally posted by David Ey:
Yeah, the stupid don't deserve to be free do they? |
Hmmm... rhetorical? Sarcasm? Opinion? |
What I mean is....too many folks are worrying about the wrong meaningless things in life. |
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12/12/2006 07:07:48 PM · #36 |
Originally posted by KaDi:
Originally posted by Art Roflmao:
I am picturing the TSA staff taking down trees, putting up trees, etc, while a group of jihadists slips through the unguarded security gates... |
Rhetorical? Sarcasm? Opinion?
Seriously, you don't think the exact same people are employed for both security and maintenance, do you? |
No. It was none of the three. It was just what I said - a picture in my head. :) |
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12/12/2006 07:37:29 PM · #37 |
Originally posted by Art Roflmao:
Originally posted by KaDi:
Originally posted by Art Roflmao:
I am picturing the TSA staff taking down trees, putting up trees, etc, while a group of jihadists slips through the unguarded security gates... |
Rhetorical? Sarcasm? Opinion?
Seriously, you don't think the exact same people are employed for both security and maintenance, do you? |
No. It was none of the three. It was just what I said - a picture in my head. :) |
;-) ...and i usually like your head pictures...
(just not when they feed mis-conceptions that other heads may hold...) |
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12/13/2006 08:17:58 AM · #38 |
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12/13/2006 08:55:06 AM · #39 |
I vote to ban ALL holidays that involve shopping for gifts!
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12/13/2006 12:08:43 PM · #40 |
Originally posted by Strikeslip:
I vote to ban ALL holidays that involve shopping for gifts! |
How about trick or treating for gifts instead? is that acceptable? |
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12/13/2006 12:10:11 PM · #41 |
Originally posted by Strikeslip:
I vote to ban ALL holidays that involve shopping for gifts! |
I agree. Only holidays where we GET gifts from now on!
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12/13/2006 01:48:12 PM · #42 |
All this crap just takes the fun and meaning of the season out of it.
We should be spending time with family and friends, eating too much, sharing, giving gifts, helping out those that need it and celebrating what ever you want to celebrate...
Don't you just love this time of year?
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12/13/2006 02:05:09 PM · #43 |
Originally posted by LoudDog:
We should be helping out those that need it... |
Whats the last thing you've done for someone in need??? (aside from giving a toy or food for some christmas drive)
Also, I'm not singling you out but "you" refers to all. You just happened to say it. |
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12/13/2006 02:35:07 PM · #44 |
Originally posted by notonline:
Originally posted by LoudDog:
We should be helping out those that need it... |
Whats the last thing you've done for someone in need??? (aside from giving a toy or food for some christmas drive)
Also, I'm not singling you out but "you" refers to all. You just happened to say it. |
???
Not sure what you mean or how you meant to come off, but I assure that I give more then my share in numerous ways.
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12/13/2006 06:29:46 PM · #45 |
Christians get all upset about their holidays being co-opted, while virtually every date and ritual in the religion was taken from somewhere else, primarily the pagans they were trying to convert (forcibly in many cases, i might add). The Druids are the ones that should be raising an outcry, due to the symbol of their Yule celebration being removed.
Yet another reason i'm glad i am not tied to an imaginary friend for grownups.
Religion should be kept in the privacy of one's home, then no one would have anything to complain about.
And the millions of Amercans that don't celebrate this time of year like Joe Blow Conformist would not feel cheated out of their constitutionally protected rights.
Message edited by author 2006-12-13 18:32:39. |
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12/13/2006 11:11:10 PM · #46 |
Originally posted by Strikeslip:
I vote to ban ALL holidays that involve shopping for gifts! |
Scrooge!! ;~p |
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12/14/2006 08:47:47 PM · #47 |
I'm late to the game here, but there are a couple point here to which I'd like to reply. Apologies in advance for the long post:
Originally posted by jhonan:
Do other religions feel so left out at Christmas that they have to start shoe-horning in their own religious festivals? |
Hanukkah is known to have been celebrated since 165 BC/BCE (some 160 years before Jesus of Nazareth was born). It is celebrated on the 8 days beginning with 25th day of the month of Kislev on the Hebrew calendar, the date on which the events it celebrates (the rededication of the Temple in Israel and the miracle of the oil lasting for 8 days) took place.
Virtually all scholars acknowledge that the exact year or date of Jesus of Nazareth's birth is not known. Many consider it likely that his birth was in the spring or summer, based on the descriptions of the shepherds' activities as documented in Luke. The idea of 25 December as Jesus' birthday can be traced back to 221 AD/CE, and its celebration on that date to approximately 330 AD/CE. Before that date, it was generally celebrated on 6 January as part of the Epiphany. The 25 December date is believed to have been chosen by the Roman Catholic Church to replace Saturnalia, a Roman festival celebrating the pagan sun god.
The argument that Hanukkah is "elbowing in on" Christmas is difficult to accept, given that Hanukkah predates Jesus' birth by about 160 years, its association with 25 December by about 380 years, and its celebration on that date by almost half a millennium. In light of scholars' belief that the 25 December date was chosen to co-opt the festival of another faith, this argument is even harden to stomach.
Originally posted by fotomann_forever:
It's just a metter of what is wrong with the US nowadays...
Everyone is concerned about "My Rights" and not the rights of others. |
I agree with this sentiment. I take it, then, that you support helping others to gain the same rights you have?
Originally posted by JRalston:
It is getting ridiculous nowadays. The majority of American's celebrate Christmas.
The majority of Americans voted Bush for president. We don't go around saying that we should let John Kerry have some face time because some people voted for him too.
Maybe a silly way to describe how I feel.....but dangit, a little tolerance goes a long way. |
The constitution, and the first amendment in particular, were put in place to protect the rights of the minority at the hands of the majority. Popular speech is rarely in need of protection -- it's the speakers of controversial statements who are most likely to have their rights infringed. It also seems odd to be using tolerance as an argument in favor of a mono-cultural, as opposed to multi-cultural, holiday display.
Originally posted by Beagleboy:
Easier for the airport authority to pull down the Xmas tree than having to set a precedent with the menorah. Accomodation for people of Jewish faith would have left them wide open to other religions / sects demanding their own symbols for various religious holidays. |
I place the blame on this lack of planning on the Port Commission that runs the airport, not on Rabbi Bogomilsky. The management of an international airport in a coastal city should be quite familiar with the need to plan all aspects of its operation around the needs and wishes of the many cultures that use the airport every day. The failure to do so rests with those managers, not with the customer who called the failures to their attention.
Originally posted by idnic:
Didn't we fight this war about 1500 years ago? |
A little over 2,000 years ago, actually. I might point out that Christmas celebrates a birthday that occurred over 2,000 years ago as well.
While Hanukkah celebrates victory over a monarch (Antiochus IV) who outlawed Judaism, massacred its followers, and looted the Temple, it primarily celebrates the liberation and rededication of the Temple in Jerusalem. Many Jews consider the story of Hanukkah to remain relevant and timely, as Antiochus' attempt to annihilate the Jews was closely mirrored by the holocaust during World War II, and is similarly echoed in the desire of several Middle Eastern countries to destroy Israel.
Originally posted by RonB:
Asking for an 8-inch menorah would be a little much if the demand was that it be accompanied by a lighting ceremony, thereby making it into a religious celebration. |
I agree that the Port Commission were correct to refuse to conduct the lighting ceremony themselves, although it may have been acceptable for them to permit Rabbi Bogomilsky to conduct a ceremony on his own. That said, I can find no evidence that the Port Commission offered a Chanukiah (menorah) but no lighting ceremony.
Originally posted by RonB:
a) the presence of trees in SEA-TAC airport is not a celebration of a Christian holiday. |
It is a secular symbol of a Christian holiday, as a Chanukiah is a secular symbol of a Jewish holiday.
Originally posted by RonB:
Christian holidays are NOT the only ones celebrated - at least in the U.S., where federal, non-Christian holidays include New Year's Day, Martin Luther King's birthday, President's Day, Memorial Day, Independence Day, Labor Day, Columbus Day, and Veteran's Day. In addition, we in the U.S. observe Valentine's Day, St. Patrick's Day, Mothers' Day, Fathers' Day, and Halloween, as well as encourage ethnic and religious groups to share with us their own celebrations. |
While there are many non-Christian holidays on these lists, it is worth noting that the only holidays with any religious origin listed here are, in fact, Christmas ones.
Originally posted by RonB:
A brief Google search reveals that in New York City they have closed off streets to accommodate parades for: Chinese New Year's, Phagwah ( Hindu ), Greek Independence Day, Scottish Bagpipers and Drummers, Sikh Cultural Society, Cuban Day, Turkish-Americans, Haitian Flag Day, Norwegian-Americans, Israel, Philippine Independence Day, Queens Pride, Hare Krishna, Puerto Rican Day, Brazil Independence Day, Steuben Day, Muslim Day, Mexican Day, African-American Day, Nigerians, Pulaski Day, and Korean Harvest Day.
If that's not enough recognition for you, then I don't know what would be. |
I agree that New York City's efforts embrace its many cultures are admirable. I'd like to see the Port Commission and the management of Sea-Tac do the same.
Originally posted by leagalbeagle:
I have no idea why anyone else should object to the festival of Christmas being celebrated, even if it does not directly relate to them. |
No one (certainly not Rabbi Bogomilsky anyway) objected to the celebration of Christmas. He simply requested that a single Chanukiah be added to complement the nine trees already present.
Originally posted by notonline:
Originally posted by LoudDog:
We should be helping out those that need it... |
Whats the last thing you've done for someone in need??? (aside from giving a toy or food for some christmas drive)
Also, I'm not singling you out but "you" refers to all. You just happened to say it. |
This might make a good subject for a new thread. As it is, it seems ironic that it was posted in reply to a post by LoudDog, who has done quote a lot this year to help out a friend.
~Terry
Message edited by author 2006-12-15 07:25:17.
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12/14/2006 08:51:28 PM · #48 |
Originally posted by mk:
Originally posted by Strikeslip:
I vote to ban ALL holidays that involve shopping for gifts! |
I agree. Only holidays where we GET gifts from now on! |
From Uncle Sam :-)
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12/15/2006 09:32:35 AM · #49 |
Originally posted by fotomann_forever:
Originally posted by mk:
Originally posted by Strikeslip:
I vote to ban ALL holidays that involve shopping for gifts! |
I agree. Only holidays where we GET gifts from now on! |
From Uncle Sam :-) |
The Wall Street Journal suggested some years back that we divide the holiday to one religious Christmas and excessmas. I tend to agree except I still want MY gifts.
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12/15/2006 11:47:36 AM · #50 |
Originally posted by shamrock:
Religion should be kept in the privacy of one's home, then no one would have anything to complain about.
And the millions of Amercans that don't celebrate this time of year like Joe Blow Conformist would not feel cheated out of their constitutionally protected rights. |
I would give more credence to your final statement if you could
a) clearly articulate the "rights" that you feel millions are cheated out of, and
b) provide excerpts, from the Constitution, of course, where those "rights" are delineated. |
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