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12/11/2006 07:16:44 PM · #1 |
Do other religions feel so left out at Christmas that they have to start shoe-horning in their own religious festivals?
Airport Christmas Trees Gone After Rabbi's Request
I mean, how many other feast days do the Jews have to themselves over the course of the year? - Can't they just leave us with Christmas? And in case they didn't realise, Christmas is for celebrating the birth of Christ. Not lighting candles in memory of some ancient Jewish war.
From now on I'm going to put up a Christmas tree for Passover.
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12/11/2006 07:41:38 PM · #2 |
***Ignore if you don't care about historical/religious takes on holidays***
My question is how many of the Christian/traditional folks would be happy to know that they aren't really celebrating the birth of Christ in December, but are actually performing pagan rituals. The Christmas ham comes from Scandinavian pagans, as well as the gift giving. The decorating of trees comes from European pagans.
Seems Christmas was really a political holiday. Julius Ceasar used it, along with other pagan holidays, and tied them to Christian "holidays" in order to more easily convert them.
As it is, Halloweeen is cloer to Christs birth than Christmas, datewise. I think he was born sometime middle to late October based on the clues put out in the bible...shepherds herding their sheep, the status of the crops, etc.
Sorry for adding my 2 bits here.
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12/11/2006 07:43:39 PM · #3 |
It's just a metter of what is wrong with the US nowadays...
Everyone is concerned about "My Rights" and not the rights of others.
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12/11/2006 07:46:05 PM · #4 |
And might I say a Merry Christmahannakwanzaaka holiday season to you. I'm in complete agreement, though. Leave things alone. Just because you don't have something that day, don't be mad that others do.
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12/11/2006 07:48:45 PM · #5 |
The rabbi apparently did not request the trees to be removed. According to the the linked article he asked for something to represent Hanukah. The airport authority thought it was easier to just remove the trees.
Direct quote from article:
"... The man behind their disappearance, Rabbi Elazar Bogomilsky, told a Seattle newspaper he's "appalled" that the airport officials removed the trees. His goal was not to clear out Christmas, but rather to add a celebration of Hanukah. He asked the port of Seattle, which runs the airport, to build an eight-foot menorah and hold a lighting ceremony.
"Everyone should have their spirit of the holiday," he told the Seattle Times. "For many people, the trees are the spirit of the holidays, and adding a menorah adds light to the season."
Port officials apparently found it easier to remove the Christmas trees — about a dozen. ..."
Message edited by author 2006-12-11 19:53:15. |
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12/11/2006 08:04:43 PM · #6 |
Originally posted by cpanaioti:
The rabbi apparently did not request the trees to be removed. According to the the linked article he asked for something to represent Hanukah. The airport authority thought it was easier to just remove the trees. |
He demanded that they build an 8 foot menorah. The day they removed the trees was the final deadline before it went to court.
My original point was that Christmas is a Christian feast (regardless of it's origins) - Why do other religions feel they should be represented? Christians don't make demands about putting up crucifixes for the Passover, or statues of the Virgin Mary during Ramadan.
Hey, I'm not overly religious or anything, I like Christmas primarily for the boozing. It's just this political correctness shite that irritates me. I cringe everytime I hear someone say 'Happy Holidays' instead of 'Happy Christmas' - Thankfully that phrase hasn't caught on in Ireland. |
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12/11/2006 08:19:58 PM · #7 |
The SCOTUS ( Supreme Court of the United States ) ruled that a Christmas Tree is NOT a religious symbol. They also said that a menorah, per se, is not a religious symbol. So, SEA-TAC could have put up the menorah without a problem.
The problem arose because the Rabbi demanded that the installation of the menorah be accompanied by a lighting ceremony - and that ( the ceremony ) DID make the introduction of THAT menorah a religious observation - and it would have been the ONLY religious observation - thus a government endorsement of A religion, which is, as we all know, unconstitutional.
Since SET-TAC could not possibly get around that unconstitutional display without endorsing ALL religions by including many other religious symbols ( there was not enough time ), and since SEA-TAC did not want to spend huge amounts of taxpayer moneies to defend its display of ( non-religious ) Christmas trees, it chose to remove them.
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12/11/2006 08:30:55 PM · #8 |
As some of you may know I am currently living in Thailand - there are thousands of Christmas trees around me here in Pattaya. I was fighting to get near the Christmas decorations in Carrefour Yesterday Thais celebrate everything..there are banners wishing me 'Happy Christmas' everywhere. YET in Birmingham in the UK where I come from, we can no longer call it Christmas for fear of upsetting minorities..it is called Winterfest!!
When I lived in Singapore - same thing - Christmas trees, mangers, carols.
In Malaysia - a Muslim country - same thing, Christmas trees, banners, lights..
It makes my blood boil!!!! |
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12/11/2006 09:06:48 PM · #9 |
Happy Saledays.
Message edited by author 2006-12-11 21:07:08. |
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12/11/2006 09:19:27 PM · #10 |
It is getting ridiculous nowadays. The majority of American's celebrate Christmas.
The majority of Americans voted Bush for president. We don't go around saying that we should let John Kerry have some face time because some people voted for him too.
Maybe a silly way to describe how I feel.....but dangit, a little tolerance goes a long way.
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12/11/2006 09:21:59 PM · #11 |
it's my understanding that this year Hanukkah and Christmas overlap. I think its perfectly acceptable to ask for Judaism to be represented, especially since it's an international airport, but maybe requesting an 8 foot menorah is a little much. Christmas seems to be less about religion these days than it is about giving and family.
It is my observation that people who are very observant or orthodox in whichever religion they choose tend to start believing that their religion is the right one and every person who doesn't believe the exact thing they do is wrong. Because the U.S. is predominantly Christian, it's easy to forget how many people are not, and that they have their own customs, beliefs, and celebrations that deserve to get some recognition. Why should Christian holidays be the only ones celebrated? |
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12/11/2006 10:39:23 PM · #12 |
Easier for the airport authority to pull down the Xmas tree than having to set a precedent with the menorah. Accomodation for people of Jewish faith would have left them wide open to other religions / sects demanding their own symbols for various religious holidays.
Just imagine the decorations related to The Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster!!
Oh, the HORROR!
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12/11/2006 10:48:43 PM · #13 |
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12/11/2006 10:55:52 PM · #14 |
Didn't we fight this war about 1500 years ago?
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12/11/2006 11:16:54 PM · #15 |
Originally posted by smartypants:
it's my understanding that this year Hanukkah and Christmas overlap. I think its perfectly acceptable to ask for Judaism to be represented, especially since it's an international airport... |
Why is it acceptable to ask for Judaism to be represented? No other religion was represented.
Originally posted by smartypants:
... but maybe requesting an 8 foot menorah is a little much. |
Asking for an 8-inch menorah would be a little much if the demand was that it be accompanied by a lighting ceremony, thereby making it into a religious celebration.
Originally posted by smartypants:
Because the U.S. is predominantly Christian, it's easy to forget how many people are not, and that they have their own customs, beliefs, and celebrations that deserve to get some recognition. Why should Christian holidays be the only ones celebrated? |
a) the presence of trees in SEA-TAC airport is not a celebration of a Christian holiday. Now Crosses, on the other hand, might be considered to be Christian symbols, but not trees.
b) Christian holidays are NOT the only ones celebrated - at least in the U.S., where federal, non-Christian holidays include New Year's Day, Martin Luther King's birthday, President's Day, Memorial Day, Independence Day, Labor Day, Columbus Day, and Veteran's Day. In addition, we in the U.S. observe Valentine's Day, St. Patrick's Day, Mothers' Day, Fathers' Day, and Halloween, as well as encourage ethnic and religious groups to share with us their own celebrations. A brief Google search reveals that in New York City they have closed off streets to accommodate parades for: Chinese New Year's, Phagwah ( Hindu ), Greek Independence Day, Scottish Bagpipers and Drummers, Sikh Cultural Society, Cuban Day, Turkish-Americans, Haitian Flag Day, Norwegian-Americans, Israel, Philippine Independence Day, Queens Pride, Hare Krishna, Puerto Rican Day, Brazil Independence Day, Steuben Day, Muslim Day, Mexican Day, African-American Day, Nigerians, Pulaski Day, and Korean Harvest Day.
If that's not enough recognition for you, then I don't know what would be. |
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12/11/2006 11:33:34 PM · #16 |
Originally posted by idnic:
Didn't we fight this war about 1500 years ago? |
Soooo true
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12/12/2006 10:38:31 AM · #17 |
How ridiculous.
Festivals originating out of religious beliefs are festivals to be enjoyed by all. Eid and Diwali are celebrated in the area where I live in quite spectacular fashion (lights, street decorations, fireworks etc). I always enjoy seeing people celebrating with festivities, even though it may have little significance for me. I have no idea why anyone else should object to the festival of Christmas being celebrated, even if it does not directly relate to them.
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12/12/2006 12:30:46 PM · #18 |
Originally posted by jhonan:
Do other religions feel so left out at Christmas that they have to start shoe-horning in their own religious festivals?
Airport Christmas Trees Gone After Rabbi's Request
I mean, how many other feast days do the Jews have to themselves over the course of the year? - Can't they just leave us with Christmas? And in case they didn't realise, Christmas is for celebrating the birth of Christ. Not lighting candles in memory of some ancient Jewish war.
From now on I'm going to put up a Christmas tree for Passover. |
Sad, sad...
First off, from what I understand. The Jewish man simply asked for a Menorah to be put up - not the trees removed. Though I am not positive about the details. I have no problem with a Menorah being put up.
Second, Jesus was a Jew. By the way...he also celebrated the feast of Channukah. In fact, the only place you will find a reference to Channukah in Scriptures is in the New Testament.
John 10:22 "And it was at Jerusalem the feast of the dedication, and it was winter."
The feast of dedication refers to Channukah. Which is a celebration of the rededication of the Jewish temple during the Maccabean period.
It was during this feast that Jesus stated that he was the "Good shepherd" and "I and my Father are one".
***
That said, in America we have freedom of religion. They are free to celebrate. The issue is, that there is a change of understanding that one is not allowed to celebrate in public. This is not the case. The mere celebration of others should not cause offense. Nor be cause for judicial action unless the celebration itself has cause actual harm.
So should a Jewish man be able to have the Christmas Tree removed. No, not according to U.S. law. But he should be able to place his Menorrah or celebrations during his festive time in likewise manner.
As should a mormon or a muslim. Now, that said, I am not going to celebrate in a mormon or muslim celebration. But I do not believe within America that I have the right to forbid them to do so.
- Saj
Message edited by author 2006-12-12 12:38:59. |
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12/12/2006 12:38:38 PM · #19 |
Of note, I believe public space should be available to display such holiday celebrations. However, I do not believe the actual objects of display should be paid for with public funds except by donation.
Technically, public property is owned by the people. Therefore there should be access and support to all ethnic and religious groups. However, it is improper for say a city to pay with tax payers money for the tree or the building of a menorah. However, if a church paid for the display or donations were made to the city to pay for a Christmas tree to be erected. So be it. Likewise, in this case I do not believe the airport should have had to build a menorah. But they should have stated to the rabbi were he and his constituents to provide one they would allow for it to be displayed during the Chanukah holiday season.
Albeit, the electricity for such lighted things most likely has to be including in the space/support aspect as it's hard to distinguish. So I classify that as part of the "public space" (land, building, facitilites, utilities, etc.) as all members of the public pay for these items they should all be able to access them.
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12/12/2006 01:50:19 PM · #20 |
I'm curious. How did the supreme court decide that a Christmas Tree, put up around Christmas, presumably to help celebrate Christ's birth (it says so, right on the tin) isn't a religious symbol ?
Is it just because the whole Christmas thing has turned into such a consumer driven moneyfest that the whole thing isn't considered a religious holiday by the SCOTUS ? Or is it just because the tree is some sort of pagan fertility symbol that got co-opted by the Christians to help convert all the winter solstice celebrators?
Message edited by author 2006-12-12 13:52:21.
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12/12/2006 01:54:58 PM · #21 |
| Rabbi Rabblerouser has retracted his request and the airport plans to put the tree(s) back up. |
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12/12/2006 01:55:09 PM · #22 |
Looks like it might all be up for debate yet again. War on Christmas
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12/12/2006 02:26:33 PM · #23 |
The reason the airport decided to remove the trees as opposed to adding the Menorah, was not to slight Jews or to make them out to be a bunch of Grinches, it was to avoid having other groups come forward and demand decorations that represent their holiday.
The airport's busiest season is now and they don't have time to play cultural anthropologist to determine which holidays should be represented and to be putting up an endless stream of different decorations while trying to keep the airport operating. |
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12/12/2006 03:41:22 PM · #24 |
| Eh â€Â¦ decorating fir trees and giving gifts to celebrate Christmas is the same as using eggs and rabbit imagery to celebrate Easter; they’re all adapted from non-Christian origins. I think a decorated tree looks really festive around the winter solstice. |
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12/12/2006 04:17:32 PM · #25 |
Originally posted by Gordon:
I'm curious. How did the supreme court decide that a Christmas Tree, put up around Christmas, presumably to help celebrate Christ's birth (it says so, right on the tin) isn't a religious symbol ?
Is it just because the whole Christmas thing has turned into such a consumer driven moneyfest that the whole thing isn't considered a religious holiday by the SCOTUS ? Or is it just because the tree is some sort of pagan fertility symbol that got co-opted by the Christians to help convert all the winter solstice celebrators? |
Neither. In the case of County of Allegheny v. ACLU Greater Pittsburgh Chapter (1989), the Supreme Court, said:
"The Christmas tree alone in the Pittsburgh location does not endorse Christian belief; and, on the facts before us, the addition of the menorah "cannot fairly be understood to" result in the simultaneous endorsement of Christian and Jewish faiths. On the contrary, for purposes of the Establishment Clause, the city's overall display must be understood as conveying the city's secular recognition of different traditions for celebrating the winter-holiday season."
Ergo, at least in the eyes of the Supreme Court, a Christmas tree is not a Christian symbol, nor is the menorah a Jewish religious symbol per se, if used in a secular or mixed context. |
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