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11/30/2006 05:09:49 PM · #126 |
Thank you! That helped a lot. I think I like it! My avg vote has gone up after roll over for all challenges I've entered so far (albeit that's not very many!). I suppose it's possible to work the opposite way too...
Originally posted by fotomann_forever:
Originally posted by salmiakki:
Originally posted by jdannels:
I notice how those who complain of all the supposed troll voting affects there scores aren't saying too much when the scrubber bumps there score up .01-.07 during rollover. |
Sorry to appear really dumb, can you explain what you mean by the scrubber? I've certainly noticed a difference between my score prior to rollover and just after. In the perspective challenge it was as much as .08 higher after rollover.
Thanks |
The scrubber goes through and drops votes of voters that didn't make the 20% requirement and also drops votes of voters with suspicious voting patterns. |
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11/30/2006 05:11:00 PM · #127 |
Wow I was slow on that one, I missed the explanation and response!
Message edited by author 2006-11-30 17:12:20.
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11/30/2006 05:13:39 PM · #128 |
Originally posted by salmiakki:
I suppose it's possible to work the opposite way too... |
I have only once seen the score drop at rollover.
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11/30/2006 05:13:58 PM · #129 |
Originally posted by jdannels:
I notice how those who complain of all the supposed troll voting affects there scores aren't saying too much when the scrubber bumps there score up .01-.07 during rollover. .07 maybe alittle much but I have once had a jump around that much and it was during the purple challenge when there were mobs ready to burn the low voters. I don't want everyone's average to be the same, just consistency in one's voting. For every sub 4 or 5 average there is a plus 5 or 6 average, so what is everyone all worked up about? The one positive I have realized where my average is, which is close to the supposed norm, although some would say its alittle low and which would make me have slight troll tendencies I guess, is I can fairly consistently gauge how a shot will do, which to me is the only helpful thing about knowing my average score. |
But... but... those don't count! Speaking of which, my perspective entry shot up from around 6.82 to 6.92 after turnover. Naturally, my reaction to it was that of entitlement. :P
Message edited by author 2006-11-30 17:14:22. |
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11/30/2006 05:14:41 PM · #130 |
Then I definitely like it! thx
Originally posted by fotomann_forever:
Originally posted by salmiakki:
I suppose it's possible to work the opposite way too... |
I have only once seen the score drop at rollover. |
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11/30/2006 05:16:00 PM · #131 |
Originally posted by fotomann_forever:
Originally posted by salmiakki:
I suppose it's possible to work the opposite way too... |
I have only once seen the score drop at rollover. |
Really? I see that happen all the time but usually it isn't that huge of a drop. |
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11/30/2006 05:16:07 PM · #132 |
Ok, I know I started this thread, and in all honesty I didn't want to make waves.
My only point is, that I like to see us vote in an honest way, a fair way, that we can be proud of, walk tall, knowing we have done our best.
If is means that a really bad image gets a "1", then so be it, but remember to be honest in your vote. Vote like you like your image to be voted, and I don't means that you give out all "10's.....
Yes, if is is very good, then give it the high mark you think it deserves, if not, be sensible and fair in whatever you do, that is all I ask.
Yesterday my heart ruled, but today my brain is trying to make sense of all this, and I am sorry if I upset anyone, as that was not my intention.
Just be true to yourself, that is all I ask.
Message edited by author 2006-11-30 17:45:24.
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11/30/2006 05:16:57 PM · #133 |
Originally posted by yanko:
Speaking of which, my perspective entry shot up from around 6.82 to 6.92 after turnover. Naturally, my reaction to it was that of entitlement. :P |
LOL
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11/30/2006 05:24:53 PM · #134 |
Originally posted by sherpet:
Yesterday my heart ruled, but today my brain is trying to make sense of all this
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It's probably best to give each fair time :-)
Originally posted by sherpet:
and I am sorry if I upset anyone, as that was not my intention.
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Well, we know your heart and that you never intentionally upset anyone, but some people enjoy getting upset or at least acting like they are upset. Sooo, if they got upset, just think of it as bringing them a bit of happiness :-)
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11/30/2006 05:28:40 PM · #135 |
Originally posted by thelobster:
Not sure about the logic here - i just looked and my average vote is 3.71. I only vote on challenges I entered or thought seriously about entering. I try to take voting quite seriously. I do a quick vote and then go back through and check and amend all my votes. 4 and below means I don't like a picture. ... I don't regard myself as a troll voter. |
I'm curious...
Is it true that, on average, you don't like the pictures that you see each and every time you vote?
Based on a 3.71 average and what you just said, the answer is a resounding "yes".
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11/30/2006 05:31:08 PM · #136 |
Originally posted by stdavidson:
Originally posted by thelobster:
Not sure about the logic here - i just looked and my average vote is 3.71. I only vote on challenges I entered or thought seriously about entering. I try to take voting quite seriously. I do a quick vote and then go back through and check and amend all my votes. 4 and below means I don't like a picture. ... I don't regard myself as a troll voter. |
I'm curious...
Is it true that, on average, you don't like the pictures that you see each and every time you vote?
Based on a 3.71 average and what you just said, the answer is a resounding "yes". |
Iagree 3.7 is just plain pathetic... *Looks around* im gunna go now >.> lol *Screams and runs out*
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11/30/2006 05:42:22 PM · #137 |
Originally posted by ursula:
When I moved to the USA and had children there, and they routinely came home with "A" marks across the board, I'd be shocked. I kept thinking, "There's something wrong with this system!" (the American system I mean). |
I also wondered this many times, there are many people who graduated with me, and then did post grads at american univs. I do not know any person (who did grad with me and moved to US) who does not have 100 percent GP after their degree. I feel that US system is too easy, getting an A in my univ is helluva lot difficult. (but failing is lot easier than one can imagine, I used to think maths is gods gift to me, but i scored 0 in my very first exam at that univ, its life) |
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11/30/2006 06:13:44 PM · #138 |
Originally posted by ursula:
Originally posted by silverscreen:
Originally posted by salmiakki:
I wonder if some of the perceived low voting can be attributed to cultural differences. There has been much discussion on many threads about the DPC voting following academic scores. Different parts of the world have different academic scoring and maybe this influences the way people vote.
In the UK, when I went to school, which admittedly is a long time ago, a C= 50% and was considered a pass, a B=60% and A=70% and above. This probably influences the way I vote to a certain extent - certainly it's not intentional to vote low, but it's also difficult not to think A, B, C, D using the old high school marking system.
Perhaps others have the same kind of influences. |
I never considered this before, but I believe you are right...
In Denmark the schools work with a scale from 00 to 13 - and the extreme lows (00-03) are rarely used (It would almost take a "no show" to get a 00) and neither are the extreme highs (11-13). I believe this is reflected in the way I rate here at DPC: I rarely use 1,2,9 or 10 and most of my ratings are in the 4-7 area... |
I've often thought that this must be the case here. In Argentina, where I grew up, we had a 0-10 scale. The bell was pretty even across the board (rare 10s, few 9s, more 8s and so on down to few 2s and rare 1s). When I moved to the USA and had children there, and they routinely came home with "A" marks across the board, I'd be shocked. I kept thinking, "There's something wrong with this system!" (the American system I mean). I got used to it eventually, but getting an "A" became rather meaningless. So I think cultural differences definitely influence how we vote. |
I graduated from College here (the US) with an A average, but was just a mediocre student in Europe. I think the attitude here is very different. If you've gotten poor grades such as F's and D's and you finally got a "C" the attitude is "Hey, excellent job, next time better", in Europe it was "See, if you studied more it could have B." They don't cater to your self-esteem as much as they do here.
Isn't this also what the voting low is all about? If you're average vote is high, you're just being mindful of someone's feelings. It still doesn't mean that your picture is great. Especially if they're voting higher on other pics.
I think the good thing about the internet is that you are anonymous and you don't have to be nice, you can just be truthful. It takes a certain amount of courage to vote 1. I know I wouldn't dare. |
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11/30/2006 06:35:23 PM · #139 |
Originally posted by fotomann_forever:
Originally posted by salmiakki:
I suppose it's possible to work the opposite way too... |
I have only once seen the score drop at rollover. |
For whatever it's worth, my scores typically drop at rollover...
R. |
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11/30/2006 06:42:16 PM · #140 |
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
Originally posted by fotomann_forever:
Originally posted by salmiakki:
I suppose it's possible to work the opposite way too... |
I have only once seen the score drop at rollover. |
For whatever it's worth, my scores typically drop at rollover...
R. |
Skiff lovers not making it to 20%? :-P
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11/30/2006 07:20:28 PM · #141 |
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
Originally posted by stdavidson:
A 7.5 is 75% of a "good" (by site definition) score. That would be a middle "C" rating in the world of education. It would seem reasonable that the average DPC image would score at middle "C" level. |
That "good" is not a "site definition", it's just a directional marker; they have bad on one side and good on the other. I'd personally prefer to see "worse" and "better" or something like that.
You can't use academic grading profiles like "75% = C+" in a place like this; that kind of grading only applies in cases where there are right and wrong answers, and that's emphatically not what we are dealing with here. Instead we are dealing with peoples' own, aesthetic values and the scores are going to be all over the map. That's why it's so difficult to get into the 7's, let alone the 8's.
I'm a tough voter myself; my average vote cast is just over 5.0, and I believe that's right where it ought to be. I have high standards when it comes to judging photography, but I apply them consistently. Incidentally, I almost never give a vote lower than 4. |
Robert... you suprise me.
You, of all people, with your long history with and appreciation of good photography would be so harsh in your scoring. Are the entries here that poor?
Agreed that aesthetics rather than concrete right and wrong answers are what is being judged here, but it is inconsequential because a numerical value is still assigned and that is what matters.
When DPCers complain about their low scores, they rarely mention the other images surrounding theirs that also got low scores. They simply wonder why theirs got such a low numerical value. They do that because in most every other numerical evaluation system they have ever encountered in their lives, scoring in the low 50% level is utter failure. They think their images are judged worthless.
Images recieve low numerical values because we've institutionalized low scoring. Look how many people in this very discussion are now questioning themselves for giving high scores.
As long as we, as individuals, maintain instutionalized low scoring values we will continue to frustrate and discourage photographers from participation and when that happens we are all losers.
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11/30/2006 07:35:38 PM · #142 |
Originally posted by stdavidson:
As long as we, as individuals, maintain instutionalized low scoring values we will continue to frustrate and discourage photographers from participation and when that happens we are all losers. |
What is low to you may be average, normal or high to another. |
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11/30/2006 07:49:50 PM · #143 |
It's all objective , isn't it ??? I don't give a rats ass about scores. Just want some constructive criticism for my work. A point & shoot , tryig to get into another mode. It is discouraging, because everyone seems to be hung up on scores.... I do not believe I will spend the money to continue with this crap.Originally posted by stdavidson:
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
Originally posted by stdavidson:
A 7.5 is 75% of a "good" (by site definition) score. That would be a middle "C" rating in the world of education. It would seem reasonable that the average DPC image would score at middle "C" level. |
That "good" is not a "site definition", it's just a directional marker; they have bad on one side and good on the other. I'd personally prefer to see "worse" and "better" or something like that.
You can't use academic grading profiles like "75% = C+" in a place like this; that kind of grading only applies in cases where there are right and wrong answers, and that's emphatically not what we are dealing with here. Instead we are dealing with peoples' own, aesthetic values and the scores are going to be all over the map. That's why it's so difficult to get into the 7's, let alone the 8's.
I'm a tough voter myself; my average vote cast is just over 5.0, and I believe that's right where it ought to be. I have high standards when it comes to judging photography, but I apply them consistently. Incidentally, I almost never give a vote lower than 4. |
Robert... you suprise me.
You, of all people, with your long history with and appreciation of good photography would be so harsh in your scoring. Are the entries here that poor?
Agreed that aesthetics rather than concrete right and wrong answers are what is being judged here, but it is inconsequential because a numerical value is still assigned and that is what matters.
When DPCers complain about their low scores, they rarely mention the other images surrounding theirs that also got low scores. They simply wonder why theirs got such a low numerical value. They do that because in most every other numerical evaluation system they have ever encountered in their lives, scoring in the low 50% level is utter failure. They think their images are judged worthless.
Images recieve low numerical values because we've institutionalized low scoring. Look how many people in this very discussion are now questioning themselves for giving high scores.
As long as we, as individuals, maintain instutionalized low scoring values we will continue to frustrate and discourage photographers from participation and when that happens we are all losers. |
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11/30/2006 08:40:28 PM · #144 |
Originally posted by patio127:
It's all objective , isn't it ??? I don't give a rats ass about scores. Just want some constructive criticism for my work. A point & shoot , tryig to get into another mode. It is discouraging, because everyone seems to be hung up on scores.... I do not believe I will spend the money to continue with this crap |
It is unrealistic to expect a lot of deep critiques from people voting on 300+ images in a challenge.
Before you give up I recommend you attempt to find a quality mentor that you trust and respect to help evaluate your work and make suggestions for improvement.
There are lots of incredible photographers at DPC that are generous and giving of their time and expertise that are very willing to evaluate your work and help if you just ask. That is one of this site's greatest assets.
Not to suggest that I'm as good as others, but PM me the pictures that you would like critiqued and I will be glad to evaluate them for you later tonight.
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11/30/2006 08:43:46 PM · #145 |
Originally posted by idnic:
Cindi to her therapist: "I keep giving myself ones, god, I suck!" |
Me too!
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11/30/2006 08:49:49 PM · #146 |
Originally posted by tooohip:
Originally posted by stdavidson:
As long as we, as individuals, maintain instutionalized low scoring values we will continue to frustrate and discourage photographers from participation and when that happens we are all losers. |
What is low to you may be average, normal or high to another. |
With all due respect, I'm not speaking of individual voters. Of course each individual evaluates based on their individual values and taste. Who would want it any other way?
I'm speaking of the group as a whole. In challenge after challenge when an individual gets a GROUP LEVEL evaluation in the low 5s the number itself says to them their work is worthless. It says that because in every other evaluative system they are familiar with evaluations at that level are failures.
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11/30/2006 08:58:23 PM · #147 |
Originally posted by mk:
 |
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11/30/2006 08:59:52 PM · #148 |
Originally posted by stdavidson:
I'm speaking of the group as a whole. In challenge after challenge when an individual gets a GROUP LEVEL evaluation in the low 5s the number itself says to them their work is worthless. It says that because in every other evaluative system they are familiar with evaluations at that level are failures. |
Again, how can you speak for the group? Who appointed you our spokesman??? Who said your opinion of what is poor is the groups? A low 5 here doesn't mean it's worthless to me one bit.
Vote as you wish and I along with everyone else will do the same. |
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11/30/2006 09:00:38 PM · #149 |
Originally posted by stdavidson:
Robert... you suprise me.
You, of all people, with your long history with and appreciation of good photography would be so harsh in your scoring. Are the entries here that poor? |
Not at all. In most places I have seen, I'd have a hard time scoring this high. I'm not adjusting my scoring based on what I perceive to be the "site average"; I'm scoring on what, for me, is an absolute scale. "Moonrise, Hernandez, New Mexico" would receive a 10 from me. "Migrant Mother" would receive a 10 from me. I have given very few 10's in my time on DPC, and not many 9's either. I am scoring from a broad, historical perspective, at least in my own mind, and I am consistent with it.
Here are two images I have scored 10 in DPC challenges:
 
Here's one I would have scored a 10 if it were presented in an appropriate challenge, or in a free study:
There are plenty of people in DPC (and gawd bless 'em all) who score from a different perspective than I do, and in my mind they take care of the whole "grading on the curve" thing without any need for my bolstering. For all those who say, "I give a 10 to the best image in the challenge and a 1 to the worst image" I tender my applause and, for what it's worth, my approval. But I cleave to a different standard. I have a lot of experience/exposure in the photography world, and I know what really moves me, and why. For those images that transport me, I reserve my highest scores.
On the other side of the coin, I rarely give out an abysmal score; I tend to see redeeming value in almost every image that is presented to us. Nevertheless, in my eyes most of the work submitted to DOC challenges (and for that matter most of the work I see in galleries and museums) is pretty much average, and I score based on this perception.
Let me hasten to add that my own work, in my eyes, is pretty much average; I don't think of myself as highly creative, and I think of my skills as only slightly better than average. Every now and then I produce an image that really, really pleases me, and I take pleasure in that, but for the most part I see my work as competent, "professional", workmanlike, choose your adjective, but nor truly outstanding.
Perhaps my favorite of my own challenge entries is "View from Ecola Point"; I think if I'd been voting on it, I'd have given it a 9.
In effect, I have a mental gallery which is continually expanding, in which I hang images I have seen that really move me, or impress me, in some direct and tangible way. If your image scores 7 or higher from me, you have basically made it into that gallery; I remember your image, and I remember it fondly. I see no reason to change this approach. I see all sorts of evidence that others use an approach similar to this, for that matter.
I have given a lot of thought to changing my approach, and starting to grade on a curve; the "best" images in a given challenge deserve a very high score, the "worst" images deserve a very low score, and so forth. But this approach to voting wouldn't really be true or faithful to how I feel; I want to be awed, to be moved to tears or joy or some other emotion, and I will continue to reserve my very high scores for images that accomplish this.
Robt.
Message edited by author 2006-11-30 21:25:14. |
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11/30/2006 09:48:55 PM · #150 |
Originally posted by stdavidson:
In challenge after challenge when an individual gets a GROUP LEVEL evaluation in the low 5s the number itself says to them their work is worthless. It says that because in every other evaluative system they are familiar with evaluations at that level are failures. |
Adapt or die.
If someone can't figure out after a few challenges that 6+ scores on DPC indicate a well received entry, then that person must be completely clueless. Or maybe such people have psychological issues forcing them to cry like children in front of 6,000+ strangers simply because they have an unquenchable need for validation by others.
Only Allah knows for sure.
Either way they should just bag it and leave if they can't get past the fact that DPC isn't school and the scoring system here is unique to the community. If you're looking for an 85% and a smiley face on every piece of crap you toss in the hat, go look somewhere else. |
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