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10/17/2006 06:31:46 PM · #101 |
Outtakes never bothered me nor influenced my voting.
RANT WARNING
But do you know what has? Scores threads. And its not the scores that people post - if that's all they did I would have no problem. Its the troll bashing and the subject bashing and the quality bashing and the DNMC challenge talk that gets me. I no longer post to them (and yes, I have been guilty) and I no longer read them. If I do, it REALLY discourages me from voting.
In a current/recent challenge, someone posted that there are only three good images in the entire challenge. And you all want me to comment and vote on it?! In another challenge, I am told in the scores thread that there are too many of certain types of pictures and its too difficult to have to look through them. And you want me to comment and vote on them?! And in every score thread I am told that if I give a low vote I'm a troll, except when I give a low vote to the very broadly defined (depending on which poster) DNMC catagory. Of course, no poster's images ever fit into that! And, if I comment but the poster doesn't agree with it, they state the 'crappiness' of the comment in the thread and how wrong my opinion is. Why comment at all?
Nope. No problem with outtakes threads. They're pretty tame. Its the 'telling me how to vote and comment posts' or the 'telling me how crappy the challenge is posts' in the scores threads that get to me. Keep scores threads as scores threads. Bring back the outtake threads.
RANT OVER |
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10/17/2006 06:34:05 PM · #102 |
| Do I hear a motion to impliment Rule 2a? : ) |
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10/17/2006 06:54:53 PM · #103 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Do I hear a motion to impliment Rule 2a? : ) |
I sure hope not...
Sorry, the more rules, the more problems. The more need for rules. If you don't believe that...look that the U.S. government. If you still don't believe that. Look at Denmark. It is now illegal to have trans-fat in food in Denmark.
Sell an OREO and go to prison!
And as long as people keep giving 1's for some really lame DNMC. Then people, including myself, will keep ranting about it. If not in scores forums then elsewhere.
Message edited by author 2006-10-17 18:55:54. |
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10/17/2006 06:56:29 PM · #104 |
| Agrees 2000% with Courtenay. |
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10/17/2006 06:58:35 PM · #105 |
It has been suggested in this thread (I forget by who) that enforcement of the outtake thread ban is impossible.
However, the rule has been in place for some time now, and I can really only recall seeing two or maybe three instances where an outtake thread popped up and needed to be addressed. Have there been very many more?
I've also not seen complaints in the forums that the rule is *not* being enforced properly. Are complaints occurring behind the scenes, and is that the reason the rule is up for debate again?
While I agree in theory that the rule is difficult to enforce, I'm not seeing enforcement as a continuing problem....
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10/17/2006 07:06:17 PM · #106 |
Originally posted by yanko:
Originally posted by glad2badad:
Outtakes during challenge voting and ensuing discussions are not appropriate IMO, especially when they start going down the "there's already enough of subject xxxxx", etc...
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I can get the part about it not being "appropriate" for reasons that Bear mentioned earlier (i.e. it lacks courtesy to those that have photos on "display" in the challenges) but that's where it ends, IMO. The fact that a bunch of people are saying there are "too many flowers" for example is very valuable information that everyone should take as such. ... |
Notice I left the subject blank. :D Try this hypothetical example.
Someone posts an outtake showing an alarm clock. Discussion follows (this could also be a scores thread for that matter) that alarm clocks were such an easy cliche shot for the Morning challenge. You have an alarm clock shot in the challenge. How do you feel now? Discussion goes back and forth with the general consensus that, yes, it was easy and people should vote higher for subject xxxx as they are more challenging.
This kind of discussion (or quite similar) take place here at DPC on every challenge.
Again, I say outtakes should wait until after the voting is complete to deter these "discussions". |
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10/17/2006 07:07:52 PM · #107 |
Originally posted by L2:
It has been suggested in this thread (I forget by who) that enforcement of the outtake thread ban is impossible.
However, the rule has been in place for some time now, and I can really only recall seeing two or maybe three instances where an outtake thread popped up and needed to be addressed. Have there been very many more? ... |
I've reported several in the last couple of weeks. Poof, they go away...you wouldn't know about them. |
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10/17/2006 07:21:40 PM · #108 |
1) Allow all the outtakes, alternates, missed submissions members want post, so long as they are NOT similar/same as their submission. Using a different crop, PP version, etc of same shot or identifiable shot in a challenge can constitute a disqualification from said challenge.
2) Members wanting to have images in this thread, shall place them in their respective workshop folders or linked by thumbnail to an outside site. No direct or full-size images shall be placed in this thread.
3) Make this thread available, but not viewable on the public page, with the ability to be turned off if wanted as per the rant forum for those that do not want to see it or any part of it.
4) Comments on images place in that thread are not visible publically nor will show up on recently commented page until after challenge is over, or images in that thread cannot be commented on in a similar fashion as a non-member cannot comment until logged-in, but in this case, cannot be comment on directely logged-in or not. (comment box temporarily locked).
5) Cross-posting from other threads to gain attention to an image in this thread or posted the images outside of the thread, shall not be permitted until the challenge is over. Those that want to help will find their way to the thread and provide feedback, critiques & second opinions.
6) All comments, feedback, constructive criticism, etc remain on the thread only and can be quoted, linked, thumbnailed etc to ease readability in the thread, in the same format as the forum threads are now.
7) All general site guidleines for proper member to member etiquette shall be in place and this thread shall not be conducted in the free-for-all manner similar to the rant forum, keeping to the subject at hand, being critiques and second opinions on missed shots, alternates and outtakes of the particular challenge, and should be used as a learning tool to all.
Message edited by author 2006-10-17 19:31:09. |
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10/17/2006 07:22:24 PM · #109 |
Originally posted by glad2badad:
Discussion goes back and forth with the general consensus that, yes, it was easy and people should vote higher for subject xxxx as they are more challenging. |
This is the part I don't agree with. Since when does any discussion at DPC come to a consensus? I lost count how many times cliche shots are put down in the forums yet what happens week in week out? Those cliche shots win ribbons repeatedly or at the very least score well repeatedly. As for your example, it wouldn't surprise me in the least if there are alarm clocks that make the top ten or win ribbons. Personally, I see it as an advantage to the photographer to know what people are thinking prior to a challenge. If people think alarm clocks are too cliche the photographer can do one of two things either enter something else or strive to make his/her alarm clock shot stand out more.
Message edited by author 2006-10-17 19:23:54.
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10/17/2006 07:30:18 PM · #110 |
Consensus in a forum is only consensus among the few who read that forum. The masses may (and often do) have other opinions.
Message edited by author 2006-10-17 19:30:27. |
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10/17/2006 07:39:10 PM · #111 |
Originally posted by L2:
It has been suggested in this thread (I forget by who) that enforcement of the outtake thread ban is impossible.
However, the rule has been in place for some time now, and I can really only recall seeing two or maybe three instances where an outtake thread popped up and needed to be addressed. Have there been very many more?
I've also not seen complaints in the forums that the rule is *not* being enforced properly. Are complaints occurring behind the scenes, and is that the reason the rule is up for debate again?
While I agree in theory that the rule is difficult to enforce, I'm not seeing enforcement as a continuing problem.... |
Quite true...... the rule is apparently up for debate because it is not functioning. I have mentioned several times in this thread and others that I see a ban that cannot be fully enforced, as I see numerous examples frequently not only in threads, but also portfolios. scalvert in his posts here also has indicated malfunction. Some are addressed officially some are not. The law affects some and not others. Often determination appears purely arbitrary. What may be beyond belief are threads which contain imo. outakes seen recently which have included participation of the sc. And no I will not document them as only the sc knows what and where a banned outtake actually is and how it shall be addressed.
Message edited by author 2006-10-19 07:44:13. |
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10/17/2006 08:38:30 PM · #112 |
Originally posted by theSaj:
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Do I hear a motion to impliment Rule 2a? : ) |
I sure hope not...
Sorry, the more rules, the more problems. The more need for rules. If you don't believe that...look that the U.S. government. If you still don't believe that. Look at Denmark. It is now illegal to have trans-fat in food in Denmark.
Sell an OREO and go to prison! |
Why should it be legal to add a known-to-be hazardous artificial substance to food? Lots of other additives -- arsenic, cyclamate, cocaine -- have been banned too. BTW, trans-fats are illegal in New York too. |
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10/17/2006 08:48:35 PM · #113 |
Originally posted by glad2badad:
Someone posts an outtake showing an alarm clock. Discussion follows (this could also be a scores thread for that matter) that alarm clocks were such an easy cliche shot for the Morning challenge. You have an alarm clock shot in the challenge. How do you feel now? Discussion goes back and forth with the general consensus that, yes, it was easy and people should vote higher for subject xxxx as they are more challenging. |
Would YOU vote down alarm clocks after reading this? This reasoning gives me chills (not good ones). People should be allowed to discuss things and have opinions. Tough luck that some people think your alarm clock is a cliche. Them's the breaks. I would really like it if more DPC voters had an appreciation for German Expressionism. But it ain't gonna happen.
Message edited by author 2006-10-17 20:49:03.
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10/17/2006 08:56:27 PM · #114 |
Originally posted by posthumous:
Originally posted by glad2badad:
Someone posts an outtake showing an alarm clock. Discussion follows (this could also be a scores thread for that matter) that alarm clocks were such an easy cliche shot for the Morning challenge. You have an alarm clock shot in the challenge. How do you feel now? Discussion goes back and forth with the general consensus that, yes, it was easy and people should vote higher for subject xxxx as they are more challenging. |
Would YOU vote down alarm clocks after reading this? This reasoning gives me chills (not good ones). People should be allowed to discuss things and have opinions. Tough luck that some people think your alarm clock is a cliche. Them's the breaks. I would really like it if more DPC voters had an appreciation for German Expressionism. But it ain't gonna happen. |
You're not allowed to discuss the candidates in the polling place. |
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10/17/2006 09:02:37 PM · #115 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Originally posted by theSaj:
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Do I hear a motion to impliment Rule 2a? : ) |
I sure hope not...
Sorry, the more rules, the more problems. The more need for rules. If you don't believe that...look that the U.S. government. If you still don't believe that. Look at Denmark. It is now illegal to have trans-fat in food in Denmark.
Sell an OREO and go to prison! |
Why should it be legal to add a known-to-be hazardous artificial substance to food? Lots of other additives -- arsenic, cyclamate, cocaine -- have been banned too. BTW, trans-fats are illegal in New York too. |
At least with those things tests were done and it was found to be harmful. No such evidence of harm has been brought to the table as of yet in regards to outtakes.
Message edited by author 2006-10-17 21:03:36.
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10/17/2006 09:05:27 PM · #116 |
oh god, this can of worms again. I was hoping this whole thing was over, but oh no...of course not.
Message edited by author 2006-10-17 21:10:20. |
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10/17/2006 09:09:56 PM · #117 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
I don't care if it influences voting; if you have an entry, and you post an "alternate or out-take" in a thread for discussion, you effectively have two entries in the current challenge. Everybody else has limited themselves to one photo, and that's why, as has been pointed out, it's just not polite or fair.
We have a challenge posted, and along comes someone and says "look at me (my picture) instead" -- it just doesn't seem right to do that during the voting period.
Also, it makes no sense to me to compare such a photo with the challenge entries -- "how would this have done?" -- until the challenge results are over, and you can have a meaningful answer based on the actual results. How can that question possibly be answered during the voting? |
....grrrrr |
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10/17/2006 09:33:13 PM · #118 |
Originally posted by posthumous:
Would YOU vote down alarm clocks after reading this? ... |
No. It was a hypothetical example I was using, and a poor one at that I guess.
Try an Orange in a challenge with the theme of 'Fruits'. The whole point I was trying to make is that by putting up an outtake image while a challenge is current in itself may not be bad, it's the follow-up discussion that many times goes WAY off course.
Using the Orange in a Fruits challenge, say you post an outtake and it's a photo of an orange. Some say hey, it's great...blah, blah, blah. All's good. Then some people come along and say hey, wait a minute, (maybe thinking to themselves) I've got an Apple in this challenge I think apples should get some kudos - down with oranges. The anti-orange group comes along. Oranges are easy...too many oranges in this challenge...I saw one orange I liked out of a gazillion, can't people shoot something else...etc, etc, etc...
I think these kind of conversations stink. Outtakes (while a challenge is active) are ripe (no pun intended) for this and the scores threads really go to town (especially early).
If everyone could be civil and not try to advance their own agendas regarding challenges, related subject themes/categories, and voting methods, all would be well - unfortunately, restraints appear to be difficult for enough to spoil the fun and adventure.
I'm about talked out on this (ok, stop the applause!). Either way it doesn't matter. I have too much fun here and love having a theme/subject to chase down every week - whatever the rules end up being I'll play by them.
Smile and keep having fun y'all! :D |
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10/17/2006 09:36:18 PM · #119 |
Originally posted by Blue Moon:
....grrrrr |
Precisely my response when I see one of those threads : ) |
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10/17/2006 09:36:25 PM · #120 |
Originally posted by glad2badad:
Originally posted by BradP:
1 outtake (aka wanna be extra entry)
Votes: N/A
Views: 13
Aver Vote: N/A
Comments: a few at best
Favorites: Possibly a few
Wishlist: N/A
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I think you're understating this.
From a recent early "outtake" thread Sooooo Pissed...30 seconds late!!!!! vote now!. I'll let you look up the image yourself if so inclined.
Stats on this "outtake" image. The comments (nice lengthy ones at that) came prior to the image being removed per notice of the outtake rule being brought to light.
Viewed: 225
Comments: 7
Favorites: 1 (view) |
You are VERY mistaken. Get you facts straight first!
FIRST OFF AND FOR THE LAST TIME: I DID NOT HAVE AN IMAGE IN THAT CHALLENGE! (hence the reason why I wrote "30 seconds late")
SECONDLY: THE MOMENT JUDI (the first reply) WARNED ME OF THE RULE, I TOOK THE IMAGE OUT OF THE THREAD. It was there own decision after that to view it on my profile. I didn't receive any comments for quite some time actually because people were much more consumed with the fact that I had posted such a thread instead of the actual image, which I'm guessing was the final straw in why this poll was posted.
I support that outtakes should be posted aftyer the challenge IF you had an entry in that challenge, but I don't think images that are similar or almost entered into a challenge should be penalized or chastised. In my opinion, the rule should be kept, but changed to be more specific at least.
Trust me, I was only trying to get opinions and would like nothing more than for all of this to be over. The fact is that this is not the last time this is going to happen and something should be done about it instead of verbally assualting people who make mistakes based on misunderstandings. |
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10/17/2006 09:54:27 PM · #121 |
Originally posted by glad2badad:
I'm about talked out on this (ok, stop the applause!). Either way it doesn't matter. I have too much fun here and love having a theme/subject to chase down every week - whatever the rules end up being I'll play by them.
Smile and keep having fun y'all! :D |
me talked out 2
I don't like those dnmc overthinking conversations, either. I just don't want an overly broad regulation against it that ignores the major offendors, which occur in the thread that starts *before* the challenge. To be honest, I'm biased against most regulations. I believe that good behavior is its own reward, and I believe in the inverse.
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10/17/2006 10:03:41 PM · #122 |
Good Grief, people! This seems like much ado about nothing! I have to say for the most part, I'm agreeing with yanko and posthumous' last comments. Plus, when you really think about it, a virtual ribbon is merely that. It is a commendation and a pat on the back, but that's all it is.
If it involved legalities, an exchange of money, or something else of that magnitude, then maybe this discussion would be worth the effort. But I highly doubt it even then.
There are also those who post images during the month, I comment, as maybe many others do... then it suddenly disappears and two days later, it's in that month's free study. I thought that was against the rules, but apparently not. That doesn't really bother me, other than the fact that I didn't enter two perfectly nice images, because people had already commented on them, so I felt that wasn't ethically right. If we're going to DNMC or condemn people for posting images, I say add that to the list.
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10/17/2006 10:06:24 PM · #123 |
| Concurs with Judy, this is all blah blah over nothing. |
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10/17/2006 10:11:35 PM · #124 |
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10/17/2006 10:11:58 PM · #125 |
Originally posted by glad2badad:
[quote=yanko] [quote=glad2badad]
Someone posts an outtake showing an alarm clock. Discussion follows (this could also be a scores thread for that matter) that alarm clocks were such an easy cliche shot for the Morning challenge. You have an alarm clock shot in the challenge. How do you feel now? |
a) if you didn't realize that an alarm clock, sunrise, coffee, and breakfast cereal were the main "morning" subjects. Well...sheesh...you must be a continent and a century away.
b) Um...does it make a difference. No, not to me...a cliche shot can score the whole gamut. Yes, it may mean that in order to score highly the shot will have to be done excellently. Sure, you're not going to get a bonus point for creativity. (Albeit, I am sure there is potentiality for creativity even with coffee cups. I know, I saw some.) That said. A well done and emphatic coffee cup shot will do well. It fits the challenge and it's technically well done. But such a discussion I think would be of minimal effect.
In fact, I think most people discover such cliche shots early on. Because they'll have voted on 40 images out of 400 and 10 will be coffee. Well no discussion is necessary - their vote will be influenced by the entries itself.
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Why should it be legal to add a known-to-be hazardous artificial substance to food? Lots of other additives -- arsenic, cyclamate, cocaine -- have been banned too. BTW, trans-fats are illegal in New York too. |
Oxygen is a known hazardous substance. Trans-fats are natural as well artificial - just like oxygen. Should be ban all cars because people die in them. In fact, most people who die in cars die because one or more parties involved was not using them properly. The same is true for trans-fats.
People need to make decisions for themselves or we will find ourselves with a big brother who knows better.
Case in point, it is near impossible to find any good yogurt with fruit in it. Everything went "Low-fat" and then "non-fat" (neither of which do I like the texture and flavor of). Well, now...there is no more "fat" yogurt. The end result. I don't eat yogurt much anymore. Oh there are a few like Stonyfield (and I wish Alta-Dena was out my way). And occasionally I'll eat the wonderfully rich and creamy buffalo yogurt. But that's uber-fatty.
I much prefer to be able to have my choice to eat a little bit of good food than be forced to eat cruddy food. Look, it all goes back to responsibility. And society is more and more becoming one with no concept of responsibility. We want to sue the J.C. Penny store because an unruly child tripped us and we broke our leg. Doesn't matter the child was our own.
Originally posted by "posthumous":
Would YOU vote down alarm clocks after reading this? This reasoning gives me chills (not good ones). People should be allowed to discuss things and have opinions. |
Remember, GeneralE is also supporting not being able to eat OREOS or trans fat...it just is feeling very Orwellian to me.
Originally posted by "GeneralE":
You're not allowed to discuss the candidates in the polling place. |
Yes, in the immediate polling place you may not. But you can go a block down the road in any direction and campaign all you want.
We already eliminate the campaigning in the voting by doing it anonymously. All we're saying is the entire nation of DPC should not be limited so that we may not even discuss the issues.
Originally posted by BradP:
1) Allow all the outtakes, alternates, missed submissions members want post, so long as they are NOT similar/same as their submission. Using a different crop, PP version, etc of same shot or identifiable shot in a challenge can constitute a disqualification from said challenge.
2) Members wanting to have images in this thread, shall place them in their respective workshop folders or linked by thumbnail to an outside site. No direct or full-size images shall be placed in this thread.
3) Make this thread available, but not viewable on the public page, with the ability to be turned off if wanted as per the rant forum for those that do not want to see it or any part of it.
4) Comments on images place in that thread are not visible publically nor will show up on recently commented page until after challenge is over, or images in that thread cannot be commented on in a similar fashion as a non-member cannot comment until logged-in, but in this case, cannot be comment on directely logged-in or not. (comment box temporarily locked).
5) Cross-posting from other threads to gain attention to an image in this thread or posted the images outside of the thread, shall not be permitted until the challenge is over. Those that want to help will find their way to the thread and provide feedback, critiques & second opinions.
6) All comments, feedback, constructive criticism, etc remain on the thread only and can be quoted, linked, thumbnailed etc to ease readability in the thread, in the same format as the forum threads are now.
7) All general site guidleines for proper member to member etiquette shall be in place and this thread shall not be conducted in the free-for-all manner similar to the rant forum, keeping to the subject at hand, being critiques and second opinions on missed shots, alternates and outtakes of the particular challenge, and should be used as a learning tool to all. |
Sounds like a good compromise. I'll cast my vote for the Honorable Congressman BradP's bill!
And, I'll add, that no one on the opposition have giving an example of handling the case I have demonstrated.
[thumbs]404098[/thumbs] |
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