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09/29/2006 05:27:00 PM · #26 |
Originally posted by nicklevy:
I for myself blame shooters parents for being bad parents. It's not the teachers job to raise the kids, it's is jobs to teach them. |
I suppose fault also lies with the parents for neglect, abuse, failure to bring up good values in them...
But there are teachers out there who intentionally harass and single out students, administrators who willingly participate in sabotage, etc.
You can't put all the fault on just one person, the whole system's just screwed up. I think part of the problem is that people are so quick to blame either just the media or bad parenting or the kid is just stupid or whatever; I hope to make more people aware of the fact that there are bad teachers and bad administrators who are part of the problem as well...
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09/29/2006 05:50:49 PM · #27 |
Much of the problem, honestly, is that few high schools are designed to teach anymore. Sure, if you're a smart kid you can take AP classes and get somewhere, but for everyone else (and there are a lot more than our achievement-centric society of parents would like to admit) it's little more than a place to be corraled while the parents are at work. It's state sponsored day care. There's little supervision, even less actual teaching and learning going on. Teachers are more apt to notice the kid who acts up regularly than the quiet loner in the back corner quietly concocting his murder/suicide plan.
Social politics and power struggles will always happen. They were there when we were kids, and nothing has changed but the technology available by which to play these games. As painful as it can be, the mind games kids play on each other are just a part of growing up. It doesn't mean that cruelty should be blown off. Kids test the boundaries, and its the job of the adult role models in their lives to let them know when they've been crossed. I think that teachers today often operate under the fear that speaking up means opening oneself to allegations of sexual misconduct or abuse, or at least of offending parents who think their kids are perfect.
There's no accounting for someone's home life. There will always be kids who are mentally ill, abused, disadvantaged, and bullied. The social politics surrounding the outcasts will never change. But perhaps the kids themselves need to be a part of the disaster prevention plans. In Bailey, the school and local law enforcement had just been through an "active shooter" drill not even two months earlier. But when "Code White" was broadcast over the Platte Canyon HS loudspeaker, few of the students knew what it meant. I think the most immediate concern here is that schools and parents need to drill it into their kids' heads that if they see someone with a weapon, they need to report it. If they see someone in the halls they don't recognize, to report it. Could Bailey have been prevented if the kids who later reported seeing Morrison in the library or being asked for lists of female students had brought the stranger's presence to the attention of a teacher? Would Cazenovia have been any different if the kids who say the shooter talked about hurting kids had spoken up? It seems to me that two people have died this week because the students knew something was amiss and said nothing to the people who could do something about it.
Message edited by author 2006-09-29 17:53:35.
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09/29/2006 07:00:57 PM · #28 |
Originally posted by karmabreeze:
Much of the problem, honestly, is that few high schools are designed to teach anymore. Sure, if you're a smart kid you can take AP classes and get somewhere, but for everyone else (and there are a lot more than our achievement-centric society of parents would like to admit) it's little more than a place to be corraled while the parents are at work. It's state sponsored day care. There's little supervision, even less actual teaching and learning going on. Teachers are more apt to notice the kid who acts up regularly than the quiet loner in the back corner quietly concocting his murder/suicide plan.
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I'm not sure what high schools you are referring to, but here in Texas we work our tails off to educate children. There is not one minute to waste during the day, whether a student is in AP classes or resource classes. Generalized misconceptions like this really damage and undermine the mission of education in this country.
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09/29/2006 07:39:47 PM · #29 |
Like Laurie, I am an educator - a student support staffer. In my case, a school psychologist, essentially a mental health professional who works full time in a K-12 setting. I've worked at all levels over my 20 years in the public schools, for the last five in a large urban high school here in Madison. When something like Colombine - or more recently (and closer to home) Green Bay or Cazinovia - happens, people often look to me for an opinion. How could we have not seen this coming? How come nobody caught this earlier? Could it have been prevented? There's no easy answer to this question. Yes, we can prevent these types of events, and I think we do - every day. We work with the most troubled kids. We find ways to meet needs and make a difference. We don't get to everyone. The needs are just too great, and the numbers of people working to meet them too small. Back during the Colombine aftermath, I commented that, given the description of the shooters in the weeks and months before the tragedy (trench coats, depressed, angry, acting out, etc.) I could point to at least 100 kids in my school who loosely fit that description. There's just no way to accurately predict violent behavior. We're getting better, but we'll never be perfect.
Some of the comments in this thread clearly reflect people who had negative experiences when they were in school. Some may have even been significantly troubled. It's understandable. It's all around us. But to indict schools and teachers as the problem, in my view, misses the point badly. As Laurie capably points out, there are bad teachers, bad administrators, etc. However, the majority of people in the education profession are there for the right reasons, and trying very hard to do the right thing, in spite of shrinking budgets, lack of state and local support, and increasing ridicule from many sectors of the public.
Violence happens because violent and disturbed people exist, and have access to the means to act on their anger and rage.
On a personal note, the girl killed in the Bailey Colorado high school is the child of a graduate of my school. She has a first cousin who still attends (a junior). This incident hit very close to home for us over the past two days. Not a theoretical discussion in a social studies classroom, but the family of one our students. The incident in Cazinovia today is less than one hour away. It's dominating local news coverage and will undoubtedly be on national news for several days as well. The Green Bay incident of a few weeks ago was horrific in its potential, but thankfully headed off by an alert student who did the right thing by telling adults what he knew.
So please folks, commiserate, contemplate, and get upset, but don't point the finger at schools and teachers as the problem. Schools and teachers are part of the solution. And it's critical to all of us and our futures that we allow them to do their jobs. Throwing verbal rocks just makes no sense at all. |
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09/29/2006 08:46:32 PM · #30 |
I do not intend to do teachers a disservice. My own sister is a school psychologist. There are good and bad, just as in any profession (as I am constantly pointing out in all the threads here that rag on cops). And there are good schools and there are schools that struggle or don't even really try. I hate to point to Hollywood for an example, but classrooms like the ones in Dangerous Minds do exist. Do you really think the administrators who put those kids in those classes have any real expectation that they're going to do well, or even graduate? Anyway, just to show that I'm not talking completely out of my ass on the corraling issue, it's actually pretty well documented as a theory of psychology, and one that makes perfect sense to me. Ignore that it's Bill O'Reilly conducting the interview and see what Robert Epstein has to say. He's the West Coast editor of Psychology Today and director emeritus of the Cambridge Center for Behavioral Studies - hardly a crackpot.
The loan officer I work with the most has a sister-in-law who is a teacher in Platte Canyon High School, and just today I had to run some documents up to Aspen Park, which is on the road to Bailey, and was passed by an NBC news van - two guesses where they were heading, eh? It's touched us on a personal level, too. Colorado is smaller than people think. Everyone here knows someone.
Message edited by author 2006-09-29 20:50:58.
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10/02/2006 02:27:09 PM · #31 |
another school shooting!!!!!!!!!
whats going on :-(
//www.cnn.com/2006/US/10/02/amish.shooting/index.html
Message edited by author 2006-10-02 15:48:40.
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10/02/2006 03:39:06 PM · #32 |
So apparently this guy was getting revenge for something that happened 20 years ago? Was he picked on in school by girls and it still bothered him to this day?
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10/02/2006 03:51:02 PM · #33 |
Originally posted by LoudDog:
So apparently this guy was getting revenge for something that happened 20 years ago? Was he picked on in school by girls and it still bothered him to this day? |
Well, attacking their children is the surest way to seek revenge on the Amish in general... and no doubt he saw the news from Bailey. I wouldn't be surprised if that attack seeded the idea for this one.
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10/02/2006 03:58:11 PM · #34 |
Sure there is corruption in every profession,
but I'm sure that is not the majority.
Yes that has to be alleviated somehow, too.
People who have taken Drivers-Education, probably drive better, or know how to.
Here is where it all starts, Yes, all of you who are P-a-r-e-n-t-s.
I urge you to Spend-the-TIME with your kids, now, or they may Spend-the-TIME in jail cells later.
Love and respect, among other things, has to be taught from the start (age 0), and continued throughout a persons life.
I think that every there should be a law, that, every parent,
needs to take some evening courses on parenting as soon as the have a child, or even before.
Every parent should get a simple Certificate of Completion of a course.
Just think, if *ALL* parents were required to do that, it would lessen the problems from all sides.
Another dream, and the government should pay for these courses.
Everyone can see what happens to a neglected house, car, boat, motorcycle, vice, plant, or animal. |
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10/02/2006 04:14:29 PM · #35 |
Requiring parents to take a parenting course won't make parents better parents. Parents that don't want to be there aren't going to learn anything. The only ones who will get anything from it will be the ones who want to be good parents. I do think there ought to be schools that teach parenting skills, but I don't think that they should be forced on anyone. In fact, I think if the courses were available and at a decent price there would be lots of parents who sign up. Becoming a parent is one of the hardest and scariest (and most rewarding) parts of life. I think that new parents who didn't recieve a strong example of how to raise children would jump at the chance to learn. That was one of the things I liked most about college.. the people who went to class wanted to learn. Classes were far more worthwhile when the instructor can teach willing students instead of trying to keep in check the behavior and attitudes of the unwilling ones.
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10/02/2006 04:24:59 PM · #36 |
Edited: Never mind
Message edited by author 2006-10-02 16:25:17.
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10/02/2006 04:59:54 PM · #37 |
In general, it's everybody's problem. The majority of kids today have no respect for anything or anybody. Largely in part do to discipline at school and at home. Parents aren't allowed to discipline their kids they way they see fit in this day and age and schools can't touch them. If a guy robs a bank over and over again and all he gets out of it is a good talking to, chances are he'll keep robbing it. If I done half the crap kids today do, my dad would still be beating me.
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10/02/2006 05:10:00 PM · #38 |
Actually, beating type of discipline isn' t appropriate for all types of personalities or types of kids. Violence does teach/instill violence as a remedy. I do believe (IMHO) some circumstances may call for it.
The best method is rewarding the positives.
If you worked hard at your job/profession you expect a reward/raise.
If your boss/supervisor gives you just daily verbal-abuse/threats, how long will that keep you working there, giving it your best?
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10/02/2006 05:19:25 PM · #39 |
I am a teacher. I don't allow bullying. The school does not allow bullying. We do whatever we need to do to make school a safe place for kids.
I resent the fact that many people think teachers are to blame for students' behaviors.
Bottom line: PARENTS are the problem. Many kids have parents that don't take the time to raise their children properly. I am not saying all parents but these issues would be resolved if every parent sacrificed and raised their children properly.
It is NOT my job to raise your kid. Do I do the best that I can to support and nurture your children...absolutely but I am not a replacement for a parent. |
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10/02/2006 05:32:27 PM · #40 |
I taught in teh public education system for eight years. (I'm now at the Community College level).
From my experiences, I can tell you that yes, I was blamed for the social woes of my students. Not only was I expected to make sure they could read, write, and do Algebra, I had to make sure they knew how to get and keep a job, how to relate to their peers and other adults, how to deal with rejection and failure. In short, it did seem that I was in the parent position.
(Just as an aside, I recognize that as a Special Needs teacher in an alternative educational setting, my views are a bit different than a "normal" school).
Then, when I met with the parents, they were frustrated because they had been alienated from the schools.
So, in short, society blames the schools, the schools blame the parents, the parents strike out at whoever is nearest.
There are some bad parents out there. YES> There are some bad teachers, as well.
Who is responsible for the school shootings? How the heck do I know? In some cases, I suspect the parents didn't do a real bang up job at raising their kids, but there may also be school personnnel that weren't doing theirs as well. Ultimately, the student that did it has to face teh consequences of his/her decisions.
It's not a problem that will go away, and it is not one that just one group can be blamed. As far as I am concerned, we all (parents, schools, society at large) have a puppy in this fight.
Message edited by author 2006-10-02 17:32:50. |
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10/02/2006 05:51:03 PM · #41 |
Ok.... here is my take.
1. The parents as well are responsible for this. If you watch your children enough... you can watch for signs and get them the help they need. Also, if you teach your child from the get go... they won't develop this. My mom was always on my ass about where I was going, telling me not to do drugs, etc etc. I also had my ass beat on several occasions... was it abuse? No. But I was taught to respect other people and that there is a correct way to behave. I think it's crap that you are not allowed to spank children anymore without being put in jail. A good swift kick in the pants and I was on my way. My mother always knew where I was, what I was doing and I respected her. In return... I was respected back. I am this way with my kids. I always talk openly with them about ecerything and anything. I ask about their school, their friends (and they are 4 and 7). If I notice something is wrong, I talk with them. I don't just ignore them or let them be kids. They are children and children need guidance in life!
2. They should bring punishment back to school. By the time I was in school, spanking wasn't allowed anymore. BUT... if you got nasty to another student or esp a teacher, it was not even a thought for them to grab you by the shirt or throat even and cart you into the hall. I'll never forget in high school... a kid got in a teachers face and threatened him... that quick the kid was slammed up against a locker and the police were called in. Now, if kids do something wrong, it's "Go to the office" if you keep it up... you are suspended from school. What the hell does suspending a child from school do? It teaches them that of they misbehave... they can get out of school. Whatever.
Last year... there was a bomb threat at my sons ELEMENTARY school! They got the kids out... searched and then sent the kids back in. This went on for 3 weeks! Did they once close down the school? no! They let little kids back in the school and everyday, had to take them to search for a bomb. They never once put cameras in the school or anything. These are freaking kindergartners up to 4th graders!!!
I'm terrified for my kids to go to school... It's just sad where this world's youth is headed!
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10/02/2006 06:01:35 PM · #42 |
Here... this just happened today about an hour from my home town.
"At Least Six Dead in Lancaster County Shooting
October 02, 2006
Police responded to a multiple shooting and hostage situation at a Lancaster County Amish school this morning. It is being reported that six people are dead and one of those is the gunman.
Police say the shooting happened around 11 a.m. at the Wolf Rock School on Mine and Rock Roads in Paradise, Lancaster County. Twenty-seven students from grades one through eight attend the school.
Authorities say several victims were taken to area hospitals. The ages, conditions and exact number of victims were not immediately available.
A spokesperson from Lancaster General Hospital said they received three patients and have requested all available personnel to report to duty.
Hershey Medical Center said they received at least one patient and are on standby to receive other victims with serious injuries.
Police are now searching around the school for victims who may be hiding in nearby fields."
It's the top story on yahoo news, and the New York Times
God help us all
Message edited by author 2006-10-02 18:05:11.
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10/02/2006 06:27:00 PM · #43 |
Reading some of the details of this story is just horrifying. Here is another link with a few other pieces to the story in it.
Amish School Shooting |
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10/02/2006 06:27:29 PM · #44 |
Newsnight in the UK was discussing the subject - one theory was that kids are partly influenced by the desire for notoriety - and shootings hitting the news fosters a rash of copycat incidents.
I have previously seen it suggested that society is sufferring from a statistically high number of second generation one parent families. This means single parents who are themselves sufferring from single parentism. I have huge respect for single parents, but the absence of one parent figure and the economic hardship are both statistical indicators of problem kids.
I am not sure that homeschooling is a good solution (speaking without being a parent) however - at the very least, kids need to be with other kids in order to gain social skills. |
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10/02/2006 06:39:52 PM · #45 |
| hi everyone. I have skimmed this thread and while I've decided NOT to move this to rant currently, the line between discussion and rant is a fine one. Please do your very best to express opinions without getting too heated and this discussion should go along smoothly. Any personal attacks and it must be moved to rant if not locked. Carry on! |
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10/02/2006 07:28:09 PM · #46 |
Until these children are 18 or emancipated, it is THEIR PARENTS that are to blame or to praise for that childs actions. I am amazed at some of the kids that I see in the ED sometimes. The parent has NO control, NONE.
IE: One woman has been bringing her child into the ED since he was TWO YEARS OLD!! The first time...because he threatened her with a knife! Does a 2 year old even grasp what it means, or was just exposed to it to learn it? He is now 5-6 years old and is brought in for behavior problems (by mom, of course). She never stays...goes to the waiting room. He is very quiet and shy (in the ED), very strange.
I have a 4 year old...we talk about things, to his understanding. He usually doesn't cause much trouble, but when he is doing something wrong or inappropriate, we talk, it continues, he is removed from everything, continues from there, he will get his bottom popped. I have never had to "spank" him yet. One small pop on the bottom and he knows he is WAY beyond the limits.
Society seems like it is a "I don't give a %^&*" attitude anymore. No one has respect for anyone else, but people think they deserve respect or they deserve something from everyone. You don't give you don't get.
Solutions? I have no idea...I can take care of my kid and teach him right from wrong, what your actions will get or not get you in life, and who deserves respect. But I am PARENTING my child.
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10/02/2006 07:57:14 PM · #47 |
Originally posted by legalbeagle:
I am not sure that homeschooling is a good solution (speaking without being a parent) however - at the very least, kids need to be with other kids in order to gain social skills. |
Children gain social skills by interacting with people. It doesn't matter what age those people are. In fact its better to learn social skills from people who have social skills than from the ones who don't yet know how to behave toward their fellows. The first social interaction a child has is when they start to smile at their parents and other caregivers. Sure they need to interact with more than just their parents, but what does age matter? If my 8 y.o. plays with a group of 3 yr. olds, he'll act like he is a 3 yr. old. If he is with a group of adults, he'll act mature and responsible. Our local school busses all ages in the same bus, grades K through 12 (a very bad idea, imo). If I send him on the bus, whose behavior will he be imitating? Kids should spend time with other kids, yes. But I hope that they learn their social skills from more qualified people.
btw, school violence is definately not limited to today's society. When I was in first grade (riding the bus with all grades), our bus driver chewed tobacco. He'd spit it out the door at every stop. One day a 13 y.o. walked up to him and pulled a knife. Why? The boy wanted his tobacco. The elderly bus driver gave it to him and resigned shortly thereafter.
Oh yeah... and what about all the rapes and assaults? Is the statistic still correct that one out of four women have been sexually assaulted? violence is in all parts of society. Everyone points the finger at whoever they can, schools, parents, government, God, etc, etc. But the question we should be asking isn't who is to blame, the question we should ask is what are we ourselves doing about it? |
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10/02/2006 08:14:18 PM · #48 |
Originally posted by fencekicker:
Originally posted by legalbeagle:
I am not sure that homeschooling is a good solution (speaking without being a parent) however - at the very least, kids need to be with other kids in order to gain social skills. |
Children gain social skills by interacting with people. It doesn't matter what age those people are. In fact its better to learn social skills from people who have social skills than from the ones who don't yet know how to behave toward their fellows. |
I've taken my son to work with me since he was a little less than two years old. As a consequence, he's able to easily interact well with both adults and other kids. |
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