A favor, a request, an honest question...

05/05/2003 01:23:18 PM · #1

I've been accused of being harsh on people's shots in the past. It is because I'm here to learn and teach as much as I can.

Now I'm flipping it around - I WANT WANT WANT you guys to be harsh on my shots. I don't learn anything by people saying "oh that looks beautiful - 4." Tell me the worst.

"This sucks" - not exactly helpful.
"This shot is boring as hell, there's nothing interesting to look at, it's too dark and your finger is on the lens." Ok, THAT I can deal with.

It doesn't offend me if you tell me what's wrong with my picture. It offends me if you tell me it's great then give it a 5. It offends me if you tell me I'm really learning and give me a 3. THAT is offensive.

If I knew the answer, I'd reshoot. Assume I don't. Rip them apart - CRITICALLY. Not to be a jerk, but to teach. If you don't have anything constructive to say "good shot" is a waste of time.

Thanks
Your loving (in)sensitive artist,
Mavrik

"I don't go to art galleries anymore because there are people there, and I can't deal with people because they don't understand me."

pesinn

Kodak Z740

05/05/2003 01:39:15 PM · #2

I guess the "problem" with comments is that they are not anonymous. I have decided to give a harsh comment to those pictures that I don't like. Of course I know nothing of the photographer so in that sense comments made during the voting are anonymous although only in one sense.

So I totally agree with your methodology and wish more would follow it, "nice shot, good pic" is fine, but it's not really what I'm looking for!

Here's to more "This sucks"!!! heh...

05/05/2003 01:46:27 PM · #3

I just think "learning" and "sensitive" can't cohabitate. Either we're learning from our mistakes or we're praising ourself for shots- NONE of which are perfect. NONE. Not last week's winner or the week before. Not Kiwi's shot, Crab's, or mine. Nobody is doing a service with nice wonderful comments. Crit the photo. It's not anonymous - big deal. People can't handle the truth, tell them to stop posting them for the world to see on the internet.

Sensitive artist,
Mav

pesinn

Kodak Z740

05/05/2003 01:50:59 PM · #4

By the way, loved that black magic shot.

KIDDING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Canon EF-S 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6

05/05/2003 01:56:13 PM · #5

I critiqued your fauna shot. Not too in depth, but just a general idea of what I mean.

wingy

05/05/2003 02:27:24 PM · #6

I would gladly give out the same call to harshness for people critiquing my shots as well. The problem is that not everyone is like you and I, mavrik. Most threads on this forum comes to the conclusion that you should "go ahead and be critical, but try to soften it up by stressing what you do like about a shot, or telling them what they can do to make the shot better."
The fact is, this results in mostly soft comments. And a lot of the time the problems aren't things that can be fixed by simple suggestions for improvement. Not many people would take kindy to "shoot a subject that is interesting instead of this one" comments. Especially if that subject is their kid, their pet, or their cherished collection of rocks.
If there was some way to denote that you wanted people to be harsh when commenting on your image then it might help a little, but we've all been so programmed not to step on any toes (here and elsewhere in life) that I suppose most people wouldn't be direct anyway. And of course, the only way to put up that "be harsh" flag would be to put it into your title, since no other information is available.
I had the same frustration this week, with minimal criticism about my shots, and a 5.3 score at the end.
Note: I promise to go back and rip your "black magic" shot to shreads sometime over the next day or two. = )

Message edited by author 2003-05-05 14:29:49.

Sonifo

Canon EOS-400D Rebel XTi

05/05/2003 02:29:21 PM · #7

When I have given my honest oppinion most of the people will not mark it as useful so I don't anymore. I did leave a comment on your picture "black magic" a few minutes ago. Now that I know you don't mind I might comment on more of your photos after the voting is over.

frisca

Nikon D70

Nikon AF Nikkor 50mm f/1.8D

05/05/2003 02:36:25 PM · #8

Amen, wingy and sonifo. If you leave more critical comments, they are not marked as helpful, and more frighteningly, is the fear that someone will take the comments as a personal attack and attack back with "yeah, I looked at your portfolio, you're one to talk!" sort of comments. I haven't left any comments on the pictures in the current challenges that I found compositionally boring. Sure, they're in focus, and enough saturated, but they are of boring subjects, or lack any emotion or creativity.. how do you write that in a comment without it being taken as a personal slag?

Its hard enough to leave comments and not have them marked as helpful when you do as I do, and look at a picture three times at least before voting on it and making as thoughtful and useful a comment as possible. I'm still not done voting on all the transportation pictures!

Canon 12x IS USM (S3 IS built-in Lens) -- 36-432mm (35mm EQ)

05/05/2003 02:39:48 PM · #9

I don't think you need to be "harsh" in order to be effectively critical, and I don't see anything wrong with offering some positive with the negative feedback, especially since I think it will make the recipient pay more attention to the criticism. For example, compare the following:
1) shoot a subject that is interesting instead of your kid ...
2) I usually don't find pictures of kids interesting ...

Generally people are less offended by opinions which are "owned" explicitly rather than implied. It costs no more to be polite as you rip apart someone's creation...

magnetic9999

Canon EOS-20D

Sigma 24-70mm f/2.8 EX Aspherical DF for Canon

05/05/2003 02:45:41 PM · #10

question - what's the difference between being 'harsh' and being honest? are they the same?

thanks

05/05/2003 02:46:22 PM · #11

@GeneralE - I have two comments from you on my stickers. I have no complaints about you or how you leave comments. I learned from both.

@sonifo - I will not mark "good pic" useful. That "marked useful" thing is stupid. Some people NEVER use it. Some people mark EVERY comment useful. Some people would mark "nice shot" helpful from Gordon, but not from me. It's a useless stat - look at Dustin's profile.

@wingy "If there was some way to denote that you wanted people to be harsh when commenting on your image then it might help a little."
I agree. Would love to see a "be highly critical" button on there somewhere.

@frisca It's for other people to decide if I have something worthwhile to say. I give my opinion. I want theirs too.

Canon 12x IS USM (S3 IS built-in Lens) -- 36-432mm (35mm EQ)

05/05/2003 02:47:23 PM · #12

Originally posted by frisca:

I'd phrase it:
I found {it} compositionally boring. Sure, (it's) in focus, and enough saturated, but ... of a subject boring (to me), {and I find it} lacks any emotion or creativity

Also, I think you're all taking the "useful" designation a little too seriously. Given the late implementation of the feature, and the inconsistent and sporadic way it's used, the statistics mean virtually nothing. If I look at someone's photo, see your useful comment marked as "not helpful", it will reflect more in my thoughts of the photographer than of you, the commenter.

05/05/2003 02:47:42 PM · #13

Harsh: "this picture sucks. it's dark, I can't see what the hell is going on. What the hell is the subject? This shit is boring."

Critical: "This picture appears dark. Were you going for a dark shot? This picture has no subject."

Canon 12x IS USM (S3 IS built-in Lens) -- 36-432mm (35mm EQ)

05/05/2003 02:50:13 PM · #14

Originally posted by mavrik:

@GeneralE - I have two comments from you on my stickers. I have no complaints about you or how you leave comments. I learned from both...

Thanks -- I'm not arguing with what you want either, more trying to suggest effective ways of getting there...

Clever way to make a bulleted list!

Canon 12x IS USM (S3 IS built-in Lens) -- 36-432mm (35mm EQ)

05/05/2003 02:51:45 PM · #15

Originally posted by mavrik:

Good examples...maybe the second could end "I can't figure out what your subject is..."

matt betea

Nikon D100

05/05/2003 02:53:18 PM · #16

Yeah, with only doing one challenge so far I can already see it. In a perfect world I guess you would get everyone making a meaningful comment about your submission, even the ones that vote a 1 or 2 and slink away into the darkness. Oh well though.

Gordon

RIM BlackBerry Curve

Canon EF 85mm f/1.8 USM

05/05/2003 02:58:16 PM · #17

Originally posted by mavrik:

So, right up at the top you said you wanted people to be harsh. I would take from this that you'd prefer them to be critical ?

There isn't a need to be rude when giving critical feedback and it stands more chance of being seriously evaluated if it doesn't descend into swearing and personal attacks.

Fujifilm XF 55-200mm f/3.5-4.8 R LM OIS

05/05/2003 03:09:31 PM · #18

I prefer harsh to "nice shot." I prefer critical to either. I'm not asking people to descend to calling each other names on the comments field. I'm saying that if they don't teach with each comment they submit (except for post-challenge congrats, etc) - then they should not bother commenting. And if people wish to post-challenge comment on any of my pics, I wish for them to pick it apart. And if I show someone my shot beforehand just to get their idea, I don't want them to nod their head and say "yep, go with that." if they KNOW it's a 5 and they just don't want to hurt my feelings.

ursula

Fujifilm X-T2

05/05/2003 03:40:50 PM · #19

I know I'm not part of this group, but, here it goes ... (to lighten up the discussion going on here just a little).

This week I got (what I thought) was the following comment on my entry: "LOSE those serpentine shapes ...". I was quite incensed that anyone would dare to be so critical and biased as to phrase things so crudely, and loudly complained to my husband. He looked at the comment, and said, "My dear, it sais, 'LOVE those serpentine shapes ...". What a difference one letter makes!

Sonifo

Canon EOS-400D Rebel XTi

Canon EF-S 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6

05/05/2003 03:40:54 PM · #20

I really don't think harsh and rude mean the same thing. Rude is down right mean and harsh is saying something and knowing the person isn't going to like what you said.

I also don't mind a little harsh comment every now and again. That is the only way I can get better. I also think and feel differently then most of the others in here. My work to me is never perfect and to some in here they think their work is and that they couldn't have taken there picture any better and so when you comment on there photo or give it a low mark then they get mad. Is it that they live in denial? Ok that is far to much of my thoughts.

OneSweetSin

Nikon D3000

05/05/2003 04:20:39 PM · #21

There is difference between the harsh and rude comments and the constructive comments, I personally refuse to check ones that is harsh or rude. I'm not here to have someone rip something I did apart. I do appreciate it if there is something I did wrong or something I can do to improve an image knowing that, but I really don't think the comments like I don't like this photo, or this just doesn't say anything to me are at all helpful. If you can say something is wrong it becomes a constructive comment when you can contructively say how to fix the problem.

To Paul (General E) you leave very constructive comments, you commented on my sticker entries and you told me what I did right and what I did wrong even said you didn't know how to correct what I did wrong but at least you pointed out my mistake and admittedly said ummmm but I don't know what you could do to correct it. Those are the kind of comments we all need, so hey wanna know what constructive comments are check out some of the ones General E has left.

magnetic9999

Canon EOS-20D

Sigma 24-70mm f/2.8 EX Aspherical DF for Canon

05/05/2003 04:50:03 PM · #22

so are the comments on my 'circle of zen' pic - you can see which ones i mean if you look - harsh/rude or constructive?

thanks

Message edited by author 2003-05-05 20:46:14.