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09/29/2006 01:08:35 PM · #1 |
A few days ago was the Colorado School incident.
Now today a principal was shot in Wisconsin by a 15 year old student..!
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09/29/2006 01:09:27 PM · #2 |
| Time to arm the teachers or home school like we do. |
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09/29/2006 01:27:49 PM · #3 |
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09/29/2006 01:34:38 PM · #4 |
I too homeschool. My sone was 10 when we took him out of school. The school in our town was punishing him for getting picked on. Another student in my sons class was cracked over the head with a pyrex bowl. It knocked him out and he needed stitches. The student who did it never got into any trouble. Where is this nation heading?
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09/29/2006 01:49:00 PM · #5 |
Originally posted by cryan:
I too homeschool. My sone was 10 when we took him out of school. The school in our town was punishing him for getting picked on. Another student in my sons class was cracked over the head with a pyrex bowl. It knocked him out and he needed stitches. The student who did it never got into any trouble. Where is this nation heading? |
I feel for your son...I was framed on multiple instances of violence, vandalism, and harassment by a collaborative effort between students, teachers, and the school principal in 5th grade; the only ones who believed that I didn't do any of it were my parents and the school counselor, neither of which had any power to do anything about it.
The school system is honestly corrupt as hell, and I've known this since I was old enough to realize that if you don't fit in from the start then they will all turn against you for the next ten or so years that you'll be a part of it. I'm eternally grateful for the teachers I had in late high school who recognized and acknowledged all of these faults, but at point it's so hard to do anything about it anymore. I have a lot of respect for teachers who are actually able to make a stand for these things.
If there are any grade-school teachers here I hope you won't be offended by my anti-teacher comments; I don't have a personal vendetta against all teachers, just the ones I've encountered who have made no effort to stop harassment.
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09/29/2006 01:52:41 PM · #6 |
Originally posted by modgethanc:
If there are any grade-school teachers here I hope you won't be offended by my anti-teacher comments; I don't have a personal vendetta against all teachers, just the ones I've encountered who have made no effort to stop harassment. |
Thanks for the disclaimer -- as a class they are among the most underappreciated (and underpaid) professions around; is the person you entrust to teach your kids really worth 1/4 the salary as the person who trades your stocks? |
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09/29/2006 01:56:22 PM · #7 |
its very sad now that this is happening in schools alot...I know its not only the kids fault all the time, but again its just sad that its happening, also living in a big city (NYC) I see how bad kids act on the trains and in schools its just sad...
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09/29/2006 01:56:47 PM · #8 |
Not all teachers are jerks to kids! As a high teacher, I don't appreciate a generalized statement that indicates we all fall into that category.
My school has it's share of problems and have been working with our students on preventing bullying and character developement. It's not easy and it takes time.
...and it isn't all the school's fault. Many of our troubled students come to school with problems and issues that have evolved from their outside lives. Something we have no control over.
Please don't automatically blame the teachers - we're not all bad guys. Some of us are trying to make a difference. |
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09/29/2006 01:59:23 PM · #9 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Thanks for the disclaimer -- as a class they are among the most underappreciated (and underpaid) professions around; is the person you entrust to teach your kids really worth 1/4 the salary as the person who trades your stocks? |
No problem; I do understand several sides of the situation, I just realized after my first post that I'm probably voicing one of my opinions a bit too loudly.
However, I'm pretty pissed off at parents who take teachers for granted, too. I know that it's an incredibly tough and harrowing profession, and I honestly was close to considering doing it myself because I've had so many amazing teachers my last couple of years in high school that I wanted to be able to do the same thing for kids. I've seen it the other way around, students harassing teachers who are too timid to stand up for themselves (and in my opinion if you can't deal with a 15 year old kid mouthing off to your face every day you might need to find a new career), or parents calling in and demanding that their kid get more points on their test so they can get a scholarship to Princeton or something...
I don't know. When it comes to raising and teaching kids, part of the reason I'm terrified to have my own is because I don't want to thrust them into a world like this without a decent heads-up, but they'll be too young to know what they're getting in to until they're in it.
...I have a lot of words when it comes to this subject, sorry for all the ranting.
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09/29/2006 01:59:56 PM · #10 |
| I'm a homeschooled Wisconsinite. There was also an incident two days ago near Greenbay where a teen reported two of his friends who were planning on attacking there school. Police found bombs and amunition at there appartment. |
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09/29/2006 02:02:04 PM · #11 |
Originally posted by snowflakejen:
Not all teachers are jerks to kids! As a high teacher, I don't appreciate a generalized statement that indicates we all fall into that category. |
I agree that all teachers are not jerks to kids, I went to public school here in the city and I had great teachers but I had some that were not great, my gym teacher got transferred from hitting a student. Its just some students they are rude, bad, fighting all the time. I see it everyday on the trains, in the street, and if I pickup my little brother or I am volunteering at his high school when I have the time I see it.
Its just sad... these are kids going through this at school
Message edited by author 2006-09-29 14:02:49.
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09/29/2006 02:03:38 PM · #12 |
Originally posted by vtruan:
Time to arm the teachers or home school like we do. |
I'm interested to hear how you think arming teachers is going to make this better.
You, as the teacher, have a weapon in your desk, or even in a holster. I walk into your classroom with my weapon already drawn - tell me how your weapon helps you now?
Or let's look at the other side - you get your weapon out and only wound me. Now we have a fire fight in a school. Yeah, that sounds better.
I'm not sure what the answer is, but I have a hard time seeing more weapons being the cure.
I graduated in 1980 - and the system was pretty screwed up then. I endured emotional and physical abuse from my classmates for 6 years. I've come to learn that a lot of that was from my "victim" mentality - but it's no excuse to those that heaped the abuse. And I certainly wasn't the only one.
That was WAY before it was cool to walk in and kill your problems. With 25 years for it to get more screwed up, I can't imagine what it's like now. My heart goes out to the kids who think that this will solve their problems, and the people who are left to deal with the terrible loss of a loved one.
Message edited by author 2006-09-29 14:04:56.
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09/29/2006 02:09:20 PM · #13 |
Originally posted by vtruan:
Time to arm the teachers or home school |
That wont help at all, then what happens if a teacher has a quick pull of the trigger for something little or a bad/mean teacher pull his gun a point for no reason. Thats not solving a thing...
I graduated in 96 and it was bad then, the school system here in NYC is totally f'd up. Here in NYC they have money for metal detectors but not enough money for school books that kids can take home and then 30+ kids to a classroom, with that many kids are standing up in class not getting taught and how are they supposed to act what do u expect to happen.
Luckly my little brother got into one of the good schools here in the city. But when I have kids theirs no way I am putting them in public school here in NYC
Message edited by author 2006-09-29 14:11:21.
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09/29/2006 02:10:06 PM · #14 |
I think most of us know that all teachers aren't bad. It just seems that there is a trend among teachers and school admin that most don't care about the kids education anymore. I know its not everywhere or everybody, just the ones I've evcountered with my son. He has ashpergers syndrome(not sure of spelling), it is a very high functioning form of autism. Even after being diagnosed with this the school dist. refused to believe he was anything other than a misbehaved child who needed to be put into a small white padded room. Thats excactly what they did many times. Enough highjacking this thread though, about the school violence, unfortunatly there really is nothing we can do to protect our kids while they are at school. As happened earlier, it wasn't even a student who was responsibe for the violence. Just before school started here in Vt. we had a shooting at a local High school. The intended target was a teacher that had broken up with her boyfriend. IF it had been a week later the kids would have been there. This world is beginning to get a little scary with violence at every turn. Just sad.
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09/29/2006 02:10:32 PM · #15 |
Originally posted by snowflakejen:
Not all teachers are jerks to kids! As a high teacher, I don't appreciate a generalized statement that indicates we all fall into that category.
My school has it's share of problems and have been working with our students on preventing bullying and character developement. It's not easy and it takes time.
...and it isn't all the school's fault. Many of our troubled students come to school with problems and issues that have evolved from their outside lives. Something we have no control over.
Please don't automatically blame the teachers - we're not all bad guys. Some of us are trying to make a difference. |
I sent you a PM.
And I apologize again if I've offended any teachers here. I'm only speaking through my own experience of being harassed and attacked physically and emotionally almost every day for ten years. I'm mostly over it, but it touches a sore nerve for me since it really wasn't that long ago when I was at my worst point.
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09/29/2006 02:15:42 PM · #16 |
Originally posted by cryan:
It just seems that there is a trend among teachers and school admin that most don't care about the kids education anymore... |
They're just tired of being the only ones. The average teacher has to spend $250-500/year out of their own pocket for ordinary classroom supplies. |
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09/29/2006 02:19:20 PM · #17 |
The average teacher has to spend $250-500/year out of their own pocket for ordinary classroom supplies.
My wife, a teacher, spends closer to $1000. I teach photography & photo-editing at a local High School 1 day a week as a volunteer in Denver. I have never seen a teacher turn away from violence or picking.
By the way the incident here in Colorado was by a 54 year old male pervert, not a student. |
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09/29/2006 02:19:42 PM · #18 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
They're just tired of being the only ones. The average teacher has to spend $250-500/year out of their own pocket for ordinary classroom supplies. |
Yep I know, I remember my teachers telling us they brought supplies for the classroom.... but again its just sad... I cant believe that this is happening across the nation and nothing is being done or changed..
Message edited by author 2006-09-29 14:20:00.
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09/29/2006 02:22:43 PM · #19 |
When a kid walks into a school with a gun and uses it, there is only one person to blame. The kid.
Yes, crap happens, some teachers suck, some parents, suck, some kids are mean to other kids... That's life and sometimes it sucks, you have to deal with it. If there is nothing in your head that stops you from bringing a gun to school and killing people, your head is not right and you should not be free to walk amongst the rest of us.
Millions of kids have dealt with all of that crap, only a handful bring a gun to school and shoot people. Those are the Charlie Manson's and Jeffery Dahmer's of the world.
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09/29/2006 02:35:59 PM · #20 |
No, the problem is not typically the teachers. Most teachers go into the profession to help kids, not hurt them or hold them back in any way. Of course, there are always exceptions, but in the past dozen years, I've only met a few like that. What I have found in my own experiences are the following:
1. Most violent students (not just the kind of violence in the news, but those who bully, fight, habitually misbehave, etc.) have not just decided to wake up one day and become that way. A pattern of events throughout their lives leads them to such a point. The sense of overwhelming despair and desperation created by whatever has impacted them has typically been evident but overlooked, sometimes by blind or apathetic adults in the students' lives, sometimes by overworked and overstressed teachers/counselors.
2. Many of the problems at schools today (specifically high schools and middle schools) stem from parent and student apathy. This instant-gratification, what's-in-it-for-me world that we live in has made many people simply not care about what's going on around them unless it immediately and specifically impacts them, and even at that point, the question is "Does it impact me enough to really be concerned? Will I still graduate?"
3. Many parents have not helped their children learn that there are two sets of rules...one set for at home/on the streets, and one set for at school. Although it may be OK to hit someone at home or in the neighborhood, it's not OK to do that at school. There are certain things you can say, do, wear, or act like at home that you just cannot at school. Respect for the rules, and the differences in the kinds of rules for at home and at school, is not prevalent in society...especially in lower socioeconomic settings.
4. Many young people (especially those in poverty) are not motivated to do more, be more, or achieve more than their parents/grandparents, because they have no prior knowledge of what it's like to live any other way. Cycles continue to perpetuate themselves. What was good enough for Grandmama is good enough for them. I see that every day. I try not to harbor blame or resentment for parents who don't help their children to succeed or achieve more, because I realize that what they are doing is all they have ever known. I just hope that with help from school and community, we can reach a few along the way and pull them up higher than where they think they can reach.
5. The existence of positive male role models in childrens' lives really does make a difference.
6. Many children grow up without the knowledge of how to handle a variety of emotions. Some don't even know they are capable of a range of emotions, and just know "happy," "sad," and "angry." Until parents, teachers, and counselors realize that children need to know what different feelings are, how to recognize those feelings, and how to HANDLE those feelings appropriately, we will continue to see the results of only being able to feel one or two things at all, if anything.
I worry about what will happen when we have a situation similar to these at my school. I know in my heart that it's not "If" it happens, it's "When" it happens. We plan and we train and we drill for it several times a year. I just trust that we are prepared when the time comes.
Until schools/communities can help get families in crisis the assistance they need, and help get the angry students the counseling they desperately deserve, I'm afraid the situation may not improve. Every school should have counselors in an appropriate ratio WITHOUT extra duties such as bus duty, test coordination, classroom monitoring, etc. School counselors can truly help kids through a lot of things when they are given the chance to actually counsel. |
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09/29/2006 02:41:15 PM · #21 |
great post :-) Laurie, I agree with your post.....
My little brother is on the school basketball team so he mentioned that I take photos and now I volunteer to take the school pictures for games or trips if I have the time and how the kids act is unbeliveable.... but whats amazing is if you are able to calm them down and talk to some of them some do listen and calm down, thats why counseling would be great or could help some of them
I so agree with some of it coming down to the parents too or lack up rules that are applied...
Message edited by author 2006-09-29 14:42:39.
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09/29/2006 02:49:33 PM · #22 |
Responsibility has to come from home. Unfortunatly teachers are the parents in some cases. Honestly, teachers have probably the most demanding job, not only are we trusting them to teach our children, but in many cases parents expect the teachers to raise the kids as well. It is a sad fact that many parents don't care as much as they should. They dont' pay enough attention to thier kids to see changes occuring, and often times are being bullied by the kids.
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09/29/2006 03:25:50 PM · #23 |
Originally posted by laurielblack:
3. Many parents have not helped their children learn that there are two sets of rules...one set for at home/on the streets, and one set for at school. |
I've found it simplifies things immensely to just settle on one set of rules, and the ones at my son's school seem to work just fine : ) |
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09/29/2006 03:38:13 PM · #24 |
It all starts a HOME with a huge influence from our schools, media, and the old mighty dollarâ€Â¦imo.
Here is what I believe and how my 2 children were so different.
(1)Our current envoirment requires both parents to work, and many single working parents out there. (When I was growing up we set down at the dinner table every night, Dressed for Sunday dinners. Parents were more involved with there kids. (Yet I did get into minor trouble) As prior sports coach for many years, I don't know how many times parents either just dropped off there kid and was late getting back or the kids made it on there own. Most of the parents didn't even go to the games.) (2) I think the kids now days have way more visual exposure to violence, with the internet, cable tv & video games. (4) The mighty Dollar, (to long to list it all)
My wife and I 24yrs as of this Monday built our lives around our kids, extremely involved. And both working full time jobs as successful professionals in our fields. My son which is 22, in the army was a major pain!!! In High School no physical violence but not a very good kid. He grew up to be an outstanding young man. On the other hand my daughter as a senior in H/S is so involved in just about everything at the school, community and sports it just blows me away she can handle the schedule with being in the top 5% in the Nation academic wise and 1% sports.. My wife and daughter are in Maryland right now. She is being recruited to play softball at a small division 1 colleague, (St. Mary̢۪s, I̢۪m so proud!!).
We have been very fortunate to have the financial ability and a very strong will to help our kids succeed in life. Trust me it wasn't easy. As parents beginning the empty nest syndrome I fill Lucky. I do believed if it wasn̢۪t for some of the teachers I had as a child, along with several of my children teachers, it probably would had turned out different for my son & possibly my daughter.
Just an opinion from a parent who fills so lucky and proudâ€Â¦Ã¢€Â¦Ã¢€Â¦Ã¢€Â¦(Laurie you Rock!)
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09/29/2006 04:22:54 PM · #25 |
Originally posted by modgethanc:
Or maybe if teachers stopped being jerks to kids, or if they didn't ignore shit like bullying or harassing, or if they didn't participate in it themselves, we wouldn't have so many fucked up kids who feel that they need to remove what the believe is the source of their misery.
...
Sorry, I'm just really, really bitter about situations like these because I did not have a good time at all K-12, and by the time I hit high school most people were terrified that I was going to be the next schoolyard shooter. And I will put more of the blame on teacher than anything else because until maybe 10th grade or so, they always turned their back whenever they saw a problem rather than get involved and fix things or stop things from happening.
Stop blaming the shooters for being violent kids, or bad kids; think about what it would take to drive someone to the edge like that. Not everyone is born a violent killer.
((not sure how this new 'adult content' flag is suppossed to work...marking for profanity)) |
I for myself blame shooters parents for being bad parents. It's not the teachers job to raise the kids, it's is jobs to teach them.
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