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 09/11/2006 12:55:52 AM · #26
Hmmm... Took one look at the Single Tree challenge and suddenly realized one more reason why there should be a separate youth division. The nudity in challenges could be avoided in the youth division.


09/11/2006 02:26:08 AM · #27
Originally posted by dwterry:
Hmmm... Took one look at the Single Tree challenge and suddenly realized one more reason why there should be a separate youth division. The nudity in challenges could be avoided in the youth division.


To be honest, if someone is old enough to be browsing the internet and submitting photos to a fairly organised photo site, then they're able to find a lot more, more explicit, images of people elsewhere on the net.

09/11/2006 02:31:48 AM · #28
I think the only way to make this work would be to set tests to assess the level. Darned if I know what they would be though. Perhaps a peer assessment of the past 3 or 6 months photos that gets repeated every 3 or 6 months.
 09/11/2006 02:39:55 AM · #29
Interesting suggestions but I don't like the idea. Maybe I'm missing the benefits of separating people?
 09/11/2006 04:54:27 AM · #30
One distinction I've always found kind of humorous. The Professional has to make at least 50% of his/her income from photography.

Hmmmm. So if I have a career that affords me a salary of $125k/year and I like to buy equipment and I photograph 10 weddings on the side to the tune of $30k/year I still am not a "professional" 'cause I'd have to charge quadruple what I'm charging now (ie - another $120k/year) to qualify for this designation even though people in my area are willing to pay me well for my work. Don't you think that those clients consider their expenditure as an investment in a professional?

Break down groups by some distinction or another and you're still going to have people who don't fit easily. If you consider why you're wanting these distinctions then I think you may find something useful (David's age-based labels seems to have some good reasons to me). For me I find that some people just want more affirmation so they want to label themselves and have other agree or they want to label someone else and find others in the community to agree with that. Because we're such a diverse community on DPC what is saleable in my area may not be in yours and then again perhaps one thing that this site doesn't take into account is the "salesmanship" of the individual. Maybe elsapo or ursula or someone else takes a more imaginative, creative or technically better photo than someone else but because of school or because family or because of just general not caring about business they don't choose to pursue marketing and so they don't fit the category of "professional". Does this make their work any less inspiring? Then again, what about the people who make almost 100% of their income from photography but you might find that they're satisfied with less income; does that automatically make their work better? I just question the intent of the labeling here. Maybe if the distinctions were "I am satisfied with how I shoot; don't give me any suggestions" or "I'm pretty busy right now so feel free to give me some suggestions in your comments but I might not be able to employ them for some time" or "I'm trying to learn and promise to take all constructive criticism for the merit that is within it" or "I've shot enough that I realize you might not like this so fire away and I'll be a big girl/boy about how I read your comments and not get my feelings hurt" or something along those lines. Then again, perhaps I don't understand the need for more labels to help "divide" the people here at DPC.

I think that you'll find that people who enjoy photographing anything and desire to stretch themselves by trying different things (making them what? an amatuer at one style) may fit into different categories. Bear_Music was a professional photographer but how does having a label help? If you like his work and find it inspiring I don't understand how having a label will help you any during the challenges. His comments are no less helpful without such a label.

The age-appropriate breakdown makes sense to me but if someone wants to get better I don't really get the idea of not putting their work alongside the work that scores the best in this community and letting them see their work in an honest light so that they can see what they can do to better fit the mold of DPC voters. If they find that the type of shots that work on DPC aren't what they wanna shoot after all then its not like there aren't photography forums elsewhere that they can join to get feedback and hone other styles and skills.
09/11/2006 07:06:12 AM · #31
Originally posted by yanko:
Interesting suggestions but I don't like the idea. Maybe I'm missing the benefits of separating people?

it's because people like to:

"belong" to a group or
feel superiour or
pay difference to those whom are supposed to be 'better'

people have this tendancy to only want to talk to 'their kind'. if you want an example - look at dpreview 'Pro Forum' they pooh-pooh anyone who isn't a 'pro' (though their are a few good reads in there occasionally)

i do not want people here to be catagorized that way, in any case, we seem to split people into groups naturally why put on labels ?
09/11/2006 07:13:12 AM · #32
<---Hack.
 09/11/2006 07:35:57 AM · #33
Please don't use this as a way of breaking the competitions into 'categorised' challenges. If you do then you introduce the devil of misrepresentation in order to become the best in a 'lower division'. Been there and seen that before.

If you want to use it to describe people then thats fine, but load it with another use and you will run into terrible trouble.

09/11/2006 07:37:18 AM · #34
how about

1. sexy
2. more sexy
3. amateurs

? :-)
 09/11/2006 07:43:44 AM · #35
Originally posted by mist:
Originally posted by dwterry:
Hmmm... Took one look at the Single Tree challenge and suddenly realized one more reason why there should be a separate youth division. The nudity in challenges could be avoided in the youth division.


To be honest, if someone is old enough to be browsing the internet and submitting photos to a fairly organised photo site, then they're able to find a lot more, more explicit, images of people elsewhere on the net.


But... for someone who purposely avoids seeking out such images, DPC's policy of showing them anyway, just because they are in a challenge, kind of defeats the wishes of that person.

If a youth division, which avoids nudity, doesn' seem logical enough for you, then how about simply having the challenges themselves honor the "Hide Nude Photos" option in your preferences? Especially if the member's age is under 18?

Message edited by author 2006-09-11 07:47:45.
 09/11/2006 07:47:15 AM · #36
What I find rather amusing by all of the "negative reaction" to the idea of a division based challenge is that ... at the state fair, that's just the way it was. And I bet not a single person disagreed with the idea.

So what makes DPC so different?

(I'm just asking)

09/11/2006 07:59:14 AM · #37
Originally posted by dwterry:
What I find rather amusing by all of the "negative reaction" to the idea of a division based challenge is that ... at the state fair, that's just the way it was. And I bet not a single person disagreed with the idea.

So what makes DPC so different?

(I'm just asking)

the rides don't cost as much ...
--

the 50% rule is a way to keep people out / prevent people from joining the "club" --
we should try to be inclusive & uplift the novices/noobies
much of what i've read on the net restates - what seperates a Pro from others is the amount $ spent on Marketing & time on Sales, not the quaility of the product ...

09/11/2006 08:01:42 AM · #38
what if photography is an element of your ft job, even if not a major one? it's still in the job description =P
where does that fall in?
09/11/2006 08:02:44 AM · #39
If you want to divide the challenges, then base it on something verifiable within DPC.

The obvious choice would be ribbon count. Once you have a ribbon its can't be changed. Average score can be maniplulated by entering 'browns' once in a while so that can't be used.

So how about zero ribbons, 1 to 5 and over 5, or whatever lines people would like to draw.
 09/11/2006 08:05:05 AM · #40
i haven't read much of this thread, and although it's not a bad suggestion, seems it would cause a divide in the membership.. and we're supposed to be a community... all working toward same goal ect. ect.
09/11/2006 08:06:12 AM · #41
Originally posted by dwterry:


If a youth division, which avoids nudity, doesn' seem logical enough for you, then how about simply having the challenges themselves honor the "Hide Nude Photos" option in your preferences? Especially if the member's age is under 18?


It wouldn't really affect me either way, so I have no issue with having an option to hide nude photos all the time. What I would question, though, is basing that decision on age. Firstly, because someone's age has relatively little to do with whether or not they should or should not see naked people (oh the horror) and secondly because age is not necessarily disclosed here and, if it is, could be fake.
 09/11/2006 08:12:19 AM · #42
Originally posted by mist:
Originally posted by dwterry:


If a youth division, which avoids nudity, doesn\' seem logical enough for you, then how about simply having the challenges themselves honor the \"Hide Nude Photos\" option in your preferences? Especially if the member\'s age is under 18?


It wouldn\'t really affect me either way, so I have no issue with having an option to hide nude photos all the time. What I would question, though, is basing that decision on age. Firstly, because someone\'s age has relatively little to do with whether or not they should or should not see naked people (oh the horror) and secondly because age is not necessarily disclosed here and, if it is, could be fake.


Since it wouldn't affect you ... it probably doesn't matter.

So ... back to who it DOES affect:

Age is asked when you sign up to become a member. You must certify that you are 18 years old or else get permission to join. (I had to give specially permission for my son to join DPC) Honoring the flag because he is underage seems simple enough.

Why does everyone look for the negative?

If you can't stand the idea of checking age just because it's not verifiable then fine ... how about simply honoring the "Hide Nude Photos" option even in challenges? What makes this so difficult?


09/11/2006 08:32:12 AM · #43
To be fair, I said that I'd question it, not that I can't stand the idea.

I'm not likely to say "I'm all for it", because I'm not - I can't see the use. If enough people want the option to hide such images, then fine, that's a personal choice then. I wouldn't want to see it enforced across the board based on age, that's my point.
 09/11/2006 08:32:32 AM · #44
How about their artistic level?

Visual Artist
Photo Journalist
Gadgeteer
Technophile
Walmart Portrait studio
Passport photo Store vendor
Police mug shot camera tender

09/11/2006 08:42:31 AM · #45
When I started this thread, I wasn't suggesting that we have separate divisions or challenges, I just thought it would be helpful when looking at people's profiles or portfolios or "taking with a grain of salt" some comments to know more about the person's background.

Anybody here play golf? People sandbagging with their handicaps is enough of a problem that I wouldn't want to recreate that phenomena here.

09/11/2006 08:43:32 AM · #46
Originally posted by dwterry:
But... for someone who purposely avoids seeking out such images, DPC's policy of showing them anyway, just because they are in a challenge, kind of defeats the wishes of that person.

If a youth division, which avoids nudity, doesn' seem logical enough for you, then how about simply having the challenges themselves honor the "Hide Nude Photos" option in your preferences? Especially if the member's age is under 18?

David, as it is right now, nothing is hidden during the voting period regardless of the viewer's preference settings (just reiterating - you know this already). Even if the preference to hide nude images during voting was enabled it's still up to the submitter to select the proper category (nude) for it to be hidden anyway. The burden would then be placed on SC to check all entries for the proper categorization prior to voting? Their (SC) load is already pretty heavy I think.

Bringing this back to the thread subject...I'm not in favor of a categorization breakdown for challenges. A flag or identifier in the individual's profile? Sure, ok. If this idea (user categorization) was to advance I think a youth group would be fine (sub to under 14 and 14-18), but not for avoiding nude images.

The youth groups would just have to avoid voting to avoid nude images during the challenge voting period, as others do now.
 09/11/2006 09:05:54 AM · #47
Why do the youths need their own division? There are many that do great already. There are at least 2 on the front page now.

As to the op's original idea, I am not against it but I have the same. Complaint already mentioned about the pro title. Those that make a lot of money at anothe job could never be a pro by most opinions no matter how good they were. However a stay at home dad with a fisher price camera could sell 1 4x6 and be a pro.
 09/11/2006 07:43:17 PM · #48
Originally posted by Falc:
If you want to divide the challenges, then base it on something verifiable within DPC.

The obvious choice would be ribbon count. Once you have a ribbon its can't be changed. Average score can be maniplulated by entering 'browns' once in a while so that can't be used.

So how about zero ribbons, 1 to 5 and over 5, or whatever lines people would like to draw.


I don't like that idea either. I would be in the group with no ribbons and if I won my first under that format it wouldn't be the same. I like competition the more, the merrier.
 09/11/2006 08:06:57 PM · #49
Originally posted by yanko:
Originally posted by Falc:
If you want to divide the challenges, then base it on something verifiable within DPC.

The obvious choice would be ribbon count. Once you have a ribbon its can't be changed. Average score can be maniplulated by entering 'browns' once in a while so that can't be used.

So how about zero ribbons, 1 to 5 and over 5, or whatever lines people would like to draw.


I don't like that idea either. I would be in the group with no ribbons and if I won my first under that format it wouldn't be the same. I like competition the more, the merrier.


and then you wouldn't be the highest score without a ribbon:)
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