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04/09/2003 07:20:00 PM · #626 |
Originally posted by achiral:
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I saw this on the news, question, was it taken in the US or in Iraq? I recall it was Iraq. |
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04/10/2003 10:35:29 AM · #627 |
Did they ever find any solid WMD?
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04/10/2003 10:53:58 AM · #628 |
The news here reported that the man in the photo was one of the Kurds in northern Iraq. Nearby, other people were waving images of the Kurdish leader. He is no doubt overjoyed that he's going to finally have his own country and independence from Iraq. If that doesn't happen, I believe his attitude to Bush will change.
Message edited by author 2003-04-10 10:54:39. |
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04/10/2003 01:02:24 PM · #629 |
Originally posted by lisae:
The news here reported that the man in the photo was one of the Kurds in northern Iraq. Nearby, other people were waving images of the Kurdish leader. He is no doubt overjoyed that he's going to finally have his own country and independence from Iraq. If that doesn't happen, I believe his attitude to Bush will change. |
I'm also intrested to see what iraq is like after the honneymoon is over.
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04/10/2003 03:10:52 PM · #630 |
Thought I would put this one on this rant...sent from my brother in the US Navy.
Martin Savidge of CNN, embedded with the 1st Marines near Baghdad, was talking with 4 young marines near his foxhole live on CNN. He had been telling the story of how well the marines had been looking out for and taking care of him since the war started. He went on to tell about the many hardships the marines had endured since the war began and how they all look after one another.
He turned to the four and said he had cleared it with their commanders and they could use his video phone to call home. The 19-year-old marine next to him asked Martin if he would allow his platoon sergeant to use his call to call his pregnant wife back home whom he had not been able to talk to in three months. A stunned Savidge, who was visibly moved by the request, nodded his head and the young marine ran off to get the sergeant.
Savidge recovered after a few seconds and turned back to the three young marines still sitting with him and asked which one of them would like to call home first. The marine closest to him responded without a moment's hesitation. "Sir, if it is all the same to you, we would like to call the parents of a buddy of ours, Lance Cpl. Brian Buesing of Cedar Key, Florida who was killed on 3-23-03 near Nasiriya to see how they are doing."
At that, Martin Savidge totally broke down and was unable to speak. All he could get out before signing off was, "Where do they get young men like this?"
The answer, Mr. Savidge, is: the same place we got them for WWI, WWII, the Korean War, the Viet Nam War, and Gulf War I. They come from the heart of America.
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04/10/2003 03:23:52 PM · #631 |
| "Everyone" should be please to know that US planes are now broadcasting over Iraqi TV channels, so that the Iraqi people will no longer be getting that nasty State-mandated propaganda, and instead will be getting their news directly from the combined US/UK military production offices... |
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04/10/2003 04:31:39 PM · #632 |
Too bad. I will miss the Iraqi Minister of Information. Perhaps he will land a gig on SNL?
Originally posted by GeneralE:
"Everyone" should be please to know that US planes are now broadcasting over Iraqi TV channels, so that the Iraqi people will no longer be getting that nasty State-mandated propaganda, and instead will be getting their news directly from the combined US/UK military production offices... |
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04/10/2003 04:33:53 PM · #633 |
Agree completely. Something tells me it's going to be a very short honeymoon.
Originally posted by Geocide:
Originally posted by lisae:
The news here reported that the man in the photo was one of the Kurds in northern Iraq. Nearby, other people were waving images of the Kurdish leader. He is no doubt overjoyed that he's going to finally have his own country and independence from Iraq. If that doesn't happen, I believe his attitude to Bush will change. |
I'm also intrested to see what iraq is like after the honneymoon is over. |
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04/11/2003 04:50:16 AM · #634 |
Originally posted by Geocide:
Did they ever find any solid WMD? |
Who knows?
But here is something to think about. I give you a bunch (oh lets say 50 semi trucks, 100 or so 20 foot long pipes, and 50 drums of water). Now I give you 12 years to hide them anywhere in the state of California. How good of a job could you do to hide them from people that have never been in CA? And how long do you think it would take? I think it could take a little more than 3 weeks.
Now lets do it with people shooting at you. The time to do a thorough search of this WHOLE country has not arrived yet. a little more order needs to be attained first. then when all the soldiers can focus on searching instead of not getting shot or blown up, I think that there will be some things that will come to light. A new outcome recently...Can you say mobile labs?
Message edited by author 2003-04-11 04:50:54.
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04/11/2003 06:22:33 AM · #635 |
Snopes says this story is a hoax.
Originally posted by dacrazyrn:
Thought I would put this one on this rant...sent from my brother in the US Navy.
Martin Savidge of CNN, embedded with the 1st Marines near Baghdad, was talking with 4 young marines near his foxhole live on CNN. He had been telling the story of how well the marines had been looking out for and taking care of him since the war started. He went on to tell about the many hardships the marines had endured since the war began and how they all look after one another.
He turned to the four and said he had cleared it with their commanders and they could use his video phone to call home. The 19-year-old marine next to him asked Martin if he would allow his platoon sergeant to use his call to call his pregnant wife back home whom he had not been able to talk to in three months. A stunned Savidge, who was visibly moved by the request, nodded his head and the young marine ran off to get the sergeant.
Savidge recovered after a few seconds and turned back to the three young marines still sitting with him and asked which one of them would like to call home first. The marine closest to him responded without a moment's hesitation. "Sir, if it is all the same to you, we would like to call the parents of a buddy of ours, Lance Cpl. Brian Buesing of Cedar Key, Florida who was killed on 3-23-03 near Nasiriya to see how they are doing."
At that, Martin Savidge totally broke down and was unable to speak. All he could get out before signing off was, "Where do they get young men like this?"
The answer, Mr. Savidge, is: the same place we got them for WWI, WWII, the Korean War, the Viet Nam War, and Gulf War I. They come from the heart of America. |
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04/11/2003 09:04:56 AM · #636 |
Originally posted by Geocide:
Originally posted by lisae:
The news here reported that the man in the photo was one of the Kurds in northern Iraq. Nearby, other people were waving images of the Kurdish leader. He is no doubt overjoyed that he's going to finally have his own country and independence from Iraq. If that doesn't happen, I believe his attitude to Bush will change. |
I'm also intrested to see what iraq is like after the honneymoon is over. |
this is a typical tactic of the left leaning side of the aisle in the US. once they get proven wrong about one aspect about a debate, they quickly shift their focus to other things, in order to keep the resistance alive. people in america are becoming more aware of this lately, however, and the last elections show that the left needs to become more realistic and learn to admit when it is wrong, otherwise they will continue to isolate themselves away from the relevant topics and paint themselves into a corner that isn't easy to escape
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04/11/2003 09:39:05 AM · #637 |
Originally posted by achiral:
this is a typical tactic of the left leaning side of the aisle in the US. once they get proven wrong about one aspect about a debate, they quickly shift their focus to other things, in order to keep the resistance alive... |
Hate to break the news to you, but this is a popular tactic of the "right" as well...or do you have later news than I of prosecutions in the Enron situation?
Personally, I think the rampant corruption within the US corporate/government community is a much greater threat to the well-being of the vast majority of us than Saddam ever was...
In the councils of government, we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military-industrial complex. The potential for the disastrous rise of misplaced power exists and will persist.
We must never let the weight of this combination endanger our liberties or democratic processes. We should take nothing for granted. Only an alert and knowledgeable citizenry can compel the proper meshing of the huge industrial and military machinery of defense with our peaceful methods and goals, so that security and liberty may prosper together.
--Dwight D. Eisenhower, 1961
The complete text of the speech is here. It is NOT about disarming America, and it in fact proposes a strong role for the US in opposing "enemy" influences -- although at the time it was atheist communists and not religious fundamentalists who were the perceived danger. But it acknowledges the risks of proceeding unchecked down that path...
This is the closing paragraph:
We pray that peoples of all faiths, all races, all nations, may have their great human needs satisfied; that those now denied opportunity shall come to enjoy it to the full; that all who yearn for freedom may experience its spiritual blessings; that those who have freedom will understand, also, its heavy responsibilities; that all who are insensitive to the needs of others will learn charity; that the scourges of poverty, disease and ignorance will be made to disappear from the earth, and that, in the goodness of time, all peoples will come to live together in a peace guaranteed by the binding force of mutual respect and love. |
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04/11/2003 09:43:50 AM · #638 |
actually you are wrong about rampant corporate corruption. sure there were some huge problems in several large companies, but the vast majority of corporations aren't out there to primarily take advantage of people. the fact that you bring this up just proves my point.
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04/11/2003 09:57:08 AM · #639 |
I think there are fundamental problems with the entire corporate/government ethos as currently practiced in the US, and I bring it up merely as an example to counter your point about this smokescreening technique being a tactic solely of the left...that the right has all too recently been guilty of raising a more popular, but less serious and imminent threat, to distract the populace for its own political survival and further aggrandizement of power, at the expense of our personal liberty and economic security.
I thought Mr. Eisenhower's speech related the topics quite nicely though... |
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04/11/2003 10:03:02 AM · #640 |
arther anderson doesn't exist anymore because they were responsible for shady accounting. a whole company went down as a result! but you are worried about a few executives...the system worked and as a result stricter regulations are going into place.
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04/11/2003 10:23:28 AM · #641 |
Originally posted by achiral:
Originally posted by Geocide:
Originally posted by lisae:
The news here reported that the man in the photo was one of the Kurds in northern Iraq. Nearby, other people were waving images of the Kurdish leader. He is no doubt overjoyed that he's going to finally have his own country and independence from Iraq. If that doesn't happen, I believe his attitude to Bush will change. |
I'm also intrested to see what iraq is like after the honneymoon is over. |
this is a typical tactic of the left leaning side of the aisle in the US. once they get proven wrong about one aspect about a debate, they quickly shift their focus to other things, in order to keep the resistance alive. people in america are becoming more aware of this lately, however, and the last elections show that the left needs to become more realistic and learn to admit when it is wrong, otherwise they will continue to isolate themselves away from the relevant topics and paint themselves into a corner that isn't easy to escape |
Here we go... the chiwawwa has returned from his sleep;)
I must ask you archial what have i backstepped on? I said that i believe that this war was not justified and i still bele this point. I also said that i believe that bush is unnecessarily severing several diplomatic relationships, i still believe this. I said that the I don't support the war without the backing of the UN. Again, i still believe this. Instead of saying that i do not support the war i am now saying that i did not support the war. This is a simple shift in grammatical structure.
American intelligence said they knew all along not only what WMD's saddam had but also where they were but couldn't tell the UN inspectors. So how come nothing solid has shown up?
If i were saddam (maybe i am;)) i would have actually destroyed all of them just before the war, because he knows that if the us goes in and doesnât find a thing, then the whole justification will be moot, and then when that political sh*t hits the fan then i would rerise from the depths and reclaim control of my country and would be able to with the protection of the UN. And if i didn't get the protection of the UN i'd send Islamic martyrs to do harm to us interests. Will this happen? I doubt it. But we must not forget Saddam is a very smart man and this is a huge chess game. And if you think theyâll find him, donât forget that osama bin ladden
Now, it does make me happy to see people dancing in the streets and shouting for victory but i'm curious of the spin. I have heard reports (outside of main stream US media) that the scene isnât quite has heroic as it appears. hum⦠I don't know what to believe.
If i may, i'm going to say a quick thing about the media. One of the media's jobs is to be a watchdog of the government. The media is also suppose to be objective. There is a fundamental flaw in idea of the embedded journalist. If you life it literally in the hands of the people you're reporting on, that's going to affect your "objective" judgment. Also it's not objective, there only one side of the issue being looked into and then, as a result, more touching emotional stories about the troops get told rather and factual events. I just wish there was a way to see all sides of an issue without having to sort through 5-10 media sources.
And the best we to look into the future is to look at the past. Have a good look at Afghanistan? I think there much more work to be done there.
Anyway, archial, i laugh it your attempts to discredit my opinion.
Message edited by author 2003-04-11 10:27:04.
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04/11/2003 10:45:42 AM · #642 |
oh i forgot another thing general, just a question...why is it that you want to polarize an issue like what happened with enron and politicize it? i mean their problems aren't a result of republican or democratic viewpoints...i think both sides of the aisle realized that there needs to be more regulation and governance over company accounting practices, that's all. i think enron is just a casualty of the internet euphoria, even though they themselves weren't a dot com, the whole business of shady accounting was very rampant then and no one cared because everyone was making money. this is just what happens when reasoning stops and speculation takes over
Message edited by author 2003-04-11 10:48:09.
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04/11/2003 12:17:48 PM · #643 |
geocide i wasn't talking directly about you but just in general. and i don't care if you want to insult me, but at least use a word you can spell correctly
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04/11/2003 02:11:19 PM · #644 |
Originally posted by achiral:
geocide i wasn't talking directly about you but just in general. and i don't care if you want to insult me, but at least use a word you can spell correctly |
I wasn't insulting you... You made a big stink and starting pouting about not posting and i just joshing(kidding) about the "Chiwawa"
And yes, you got me, i misspelled Chiwawa. That one extra w really reflects badly on my character.
Goodness, these debates are in jest (when i say things, it's as humorous quips. I've explained this to you personally archial and done so several times on the boards).
Message edited by author 2003-04-11 15:13:42.
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04/11/2003 02:27:29 PM · #645 |
ok i won't take you seriously anymore
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04/11/2003 03:16:21 PM · #646 |
Originally posted by achiral:
ok i am done. no more war posts. it appears that the thinly veiled censorship will work. i'm sorry if i offended anyone by insults, there is no bad blood between any of us in my opinion outside of the rant forums. it's a touchy subject, and barbs fly both ways. i have made very valid points i think, but i have been written off because of a difference of opinion. it sure wouldn't have been this way if the bunch of people who email me all the time saying how much they agree with me would have posted in the defense of the position. however this is not the case, so instead of burning all my bridges here i will quit. again i have no qualms with anyone oustide of the rant forum at all. i could talk to ben or mag or generale or zadore about photography without ever talking about the war. that's why the rant forum is cool, it's like an isolated area where people get get what's on their minds out. it's your website though, and i'm not to push the limit anymore
edit:i should have added lisae to the group that i could talk to with no problems outside of the rant forums |
A true man of his words...
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04/11/2003 08:33:45 PM · #647 |
please don't make me make you look sillier than you already do...you called me a chiwawa, i think you meant chihuahua. anyway my point is if i called you a monkey i would be banned from the site. anyone can post insults on forums and call them jokes later to cover their butt. you just want to pick fights, i left before primarily because i knew i would lash out at your ignorant comments and saying something that i would regret. you call everyone that is prowar rednecks, you call me a chiwawa, and you don't ever actually debate anything, then you openly admit that you say everything in jest. what is your deal? if i want to post i will, i could pull up a bunch of your posts that would make you look like a very mean and ignorant person, but since i don't have the want to do something like that i won't. if you want to carry on a debate fine, just stop the insults and the 1st grade bs, because i'm done dealing with you in that aspect
oh and another thing, my new post doesn't have anything to do with the war, i'm just pointing out a pattern that i think i see, obviously both sides will debate that, but this isn't about the war, and this thread has become increasingly less about the war and more about other issues, which i would like to discuss without being called a chiwawa
Message edited by author 2003-04-11 20:46:58. |
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04/12/2003 03:19:49 AM · #648 |
Originally posted by Geocide:
If i were saddam (maybe i am;)) ...we must not forget Saddam is a very smart man ....
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I think you ARE Saddam. Or you're the only other person who thinks this.
The ability to rule by fear does not take brains. If he ever did anything that suggested intelligence, I think it was luck; and all the incredibly stupid things he's done far outweigh them.
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04/12/2003 06:49:01 AM · #649 |
achiral - there has been no shift in my position. You can see from my earlier posts in this very thread that I've always been concerned about the situation of the Kurds and how this war would fallout for them. This was never going to be an issue until after the regime fell.
The only "in bello" issues raised by me and the anti-war movement have really been the civilian casualties and the undermining of the UN. Now that the war is over, the rest of the issues we have raised will come to the fore in the "post bellum" phase. The issue of an independant Kurdistan is very important. How their future pans out and how Turkey and Iran will react remain to be seen. |
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04/12/2003 11:52:43 AM · #650 |
"U.S. Govt Accused of War Crimes against Journalists" -- Article...
Exerpt:
In a letter to U.S. defence secretary Donald Rumsfeld, CPJ director Joel Simon wrote on Tuesday: "The Committee is gravely concerned by a series of U.S. military strikes against known media locations in Baghdad today that have left three journalists dead and several wounded."
"We believe these attacks violate the Geneva Conventions," Simon pointed out.
On Tuesday, U.S. troops attacked the Baghdad bureau of the Qatar-based Al Jazeera, killing one war correspondent, and wounding another. In another attack, a U.S. tank fired a shell at the Palestine Hotel in Baghdad, killing two other reporters and wounding three.
The hotel is well known as the unofficial Baghdadi centre of international press. A large number of foreign correspondents covering the war stay there.
Ménard, RSF's secretary-general, said that all independent evidence on the U.S. attacks against the hotel shows that the firing was deliberate.
"Film shot by the French television station France 3, and descriptions by journalists, prove that the neighbourhood around the hotel was very quiet at the hour of the attack, and that the U.S. tank crew took their time, waiting for a couple of minutes and adjusting its gun before opening fire," Ménard said.
"This evidence does not match the U.S. version of an attack in self-defence and we can only conclude that the U.S Army deliberately and without warning targeted journalists," Ménard added.
Caroline Sines, a French television correspondent covering the war in Baghdad, confirmed Ménard's accusations against the U.S. troops.
"I was at the Palestine Hotel at the moment of the attack, around one pm, Baghdad time, and my crew filmed everything," Sines said. âOur films shows that the U.S. tank took its time at targeting the 14th floor of the hotel, where many journalists are hosted, at a moment of complete calm," Sines said.
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Aidan White, General Secretary of the International Federation of Journalists, said, "There is no doubt at all that these attacks could be targeting journalists. If so, they are grave and serious violations of international law."
"The bombing of hotels where journalists are staying and targeting of Arab media is particularly shocking events in a war which is being fought in the name of democracy," White said. "Those who are responsible must be brought to justice".
"The United Nations system and the international media community must be fully engaged in finding out what happened in these cases and action must be taken to ensure it never happens again," White said. "We can expect denials of intent from the military, but what we really want is the truth." |
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