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06/30/2006 11:27:55 AM · #26 |
Originally posted by _eug:
Originally posted by nards656:
Europe has no tolerance for doping in cycling. They tried and tried and tried to bust Lance Armstrong and have never done it. Yet. He's retired and he's still constantly harassed by it. |
I'd hardly consider it harassed. He was on the Daily Show on Tuesday and he said that the allegations in his opinion were a fact of the sport and his winning. He knows that people will continue to ask for years to come if he used enhancers.
It was a great interview. |
I do consider it harassed. When you have a publication that hates you hiring labs to go back seven years (eight, now) and test every sample of blood you submitted with every modern test used, even though the victories were ruled legal by the Tour at that time, someone has an axe to grind. The French are SPENDING THEIR OWN MONEY to try to prove that Lance cheated, and if you don't consider libelous claims that are continually proven untrue to be harassment, that's your choice. I'm not talking about people asking LANCE, I'm talking about the press who claim he DID.
He's had a lot of time to consider his answers. His responses when the most recent "charges" came out were much less composed and tactful. |
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06/30/2006 11:31:51 AM · #27 |
Originally posted by Melethia:
Maybe it was just the two former Posties - and Qiki, I have a friend who rides competitively and he feels very much the same way you do. I realize there's intense pressure to perform, but these guys have to know what it's doing to their bodies to dope, don't they??
Oh, and Rikki, you oughta post a picture of your poster. :-) |
The half hearted EPO testing came about after the deaths of several rider in their sleep due to heart failure. In simple terms, their blood was so thick from EPO use that their hearts couldn't pump it around. They knew the risks I'm sure (as did the team Drs who more than likely were overseeing the doping), but they did it anyhow. Sad eh?
Friend of mine rode for small teams in Italy for a while. He'd walk into a pharmacy to by vitamins and the pharmacists would try to sell him drugs. True story. That's how common doping is. |
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06/30/2006 11:33:53 AM · #28 |
Lance is dirty. Come on, wake up. Now we are contending that he is not only good enough to recover from cancer and win multiple tours in a row, but now he won them all against dope fiends who were cheating while he was honest?
Forget it. That just seems a little too superhuman to me. I'm afraid I'm one guy who feels Lance is guilty.
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06/30/2006 11:41:09 AM · #29 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Lance is dirty. Come on, wake up. Now we are contending that he is not only good enough to recover from cancer and win multiple tours in a row, but now he won them all against dope fiends who were cheating while he was honest?
Forget it. That just seems a little too superhuman to me. I'm afraid I'm one guy who feels Lance is guilty. |
I REALLY want to believe Lance did it clean Doc, but I gotta say the same thoughts have crossed my mind. :( |
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06/30/2006 12:04:28 PM · #30 |
Originally posted by Qiki:
I REALLY want to believe Lance did it clean Doc, but I gotta say the same thoughts have crossed my mind. :( |
I agree with you Qiki. He seems like the nicest guy and someone you could really look up to. I WANT him to be clean as well, but if you look analytically and play the odds, I just think it is much more likely he doped than was able to pull all that off. One day I'll ask God which way it really went down and maybe I'll be pleasantly surprised. If I'm wrong, I apologize to Lance...but I don't think I am.
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06/30/2006 12:30:50 PM · #31 |
| I don't know that I'd say Lance is the "nicest guy", but I'm of the camp that he didn't dope for his seven tour wins. I suspect he may have prior to having cancer - but I think that after cancer, he was just too stubborn and too proud to dope. I think he does have unique physiology and that was aided by his battle with cancer. But his personality is such that I don't think he'd "settle" for cheating. He was also a very smart rider. Then again, no way would I have thought Tyler Hamilton would dope, either.... |
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06/30/2006 04:59:10 PM · #32 |
| OK, here's the part that really bothers me, besides the cyclists being just plain dumb - why do the doctors do all the extensive research and testing it must take to be able to enable these guys to do this in the first place? |
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06/30/2006 05:19:49 PM · #33 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Originally posted by Qiki:
I REALLY want to believe Lance did it clean Doc, but I gotta say the same thoughts have crossed my mind. :( |
I agree with you Qiki. He seems like the nicest guy and someone you could really look up to. I WANT him to be clean as well, but if you look analytically and play the odds, I just think it is much more likely he doped than was able to pull all that off. One day I'll ask God which way it really went down and maybe I'll be pleasantly surprised. If I'm wrong, I apologize to Lance...but I don't think I am. |
But you can say that about every multi-tour winner. Heck, just about everyone that has won a tour has gone on to win multiple times usually in succession.
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06/30/2006 05:22:42 PM · #34 |
Originally posted by Melethia:
OK, here's the part that really bothers me, besides the cyclists being just plain dumb - why do the doctors do all the extensive research and testing it must take to be able to enable these guys to do this in the first place? |
It really is sad that a "cottage" industry has grown up around steroids and other PE's. When you look at the history of 'perfomance enhancing' drugs alot of the original use came as methods of speeding injury recover, then a few people decided- hmmm, if it helps me recover faster maybe it will help in other areas. I think some of the blame needs to be placed firmly on trainers- a very competitive market. Let's face it if you take over training a guy that hit 5 homeruns one year and you start training him and he hits 55 the next, your price and your client list are going to skyrocket. I'm not saying all trainers resort to questionable or down right illegal means, but some clearly do. I don't buy these pro athletes that say, 'How was I supposed to know what he was giving me, I thought it was vitamins'. If your being paid 10 million a year you should be more concerned about what's going into your body.
Okay rant over.....
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06/30/2006 05:38:52 PM · #35 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Originally posted by Qiki:
I REALLY want to believe Lance did it clean Doc, but I gotta say the same thoughts have crossed my mind. :( |
I agree with you Qiki. He seems like the nicest guy and someone you could really look up to. I WANT him to be clean as well, but if you look analytically and play the odds, I just think it is much more likely he doped than was able to pull all that off. One day I'll ask God which way it really went down and maybe I'll be pleasantly surprised. If I'm wrong, I apologize to Lance...but I don't think I am. |
Lance doping? I think I'll disagree here.
The thing that most people don't seem to understand is that cycling is not an individual sport. Lance would not have been able to do the amazing things he did without a great team behind him. He also has a smart manager in Johan Bruyneel and an even smarter coach in Chris Carmichael. Prior to his testicular cancer, Lance used brute strength to pedal his way up the mountains and in time trials. It won him the World Championships in '93 but his style wasn't as good before. After he battled cancer, he got smart mostly in part to his coach. His cadence got better averging 100 rpms. Pedal a lower gear and save your energy ;) His conditioning was improved by his coach. SO what you end up with is a rider that is better conditioned, smarter with his cadence and lighter due to his weightloss battling cancer.
Lance's team is an exceptional group. They all have one thing in mind. Get Lance to the Champs Elysee in Yellow. Other teams have other agendas but Lance' team is dedicated. Seldom will you find stage winners from the team. Every now and then, Lance allows them to be parts of break aways but it's more of a tactical move than anything else.
He's been accused more than once but what does he do? Win more races :) I have to admit that in the '99 Tour, traces of EPO were found in his body. At that time, EPO was not considered a banned substance by the UCI. EPO was present in his body due to the medication he received from cancer. EPO is a blood booster. Basically, the blood receives more oxygen thus producing more power. More power is more wattage. More wattage is stamina and strength.
I know. I know. I'm a cycling dork. What are ya gonna do ya know? BTW, Lance and I share the same birthday too - Sept. 18 :) Go figure! |
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06/30/2006 05:39:44 PM · #36 |
Originally posted by Melethia:
OK, here's the part that really bothers me, besides the cyclists being just plain dumb - why do the doctors do all the extensive research and testing it must take to be able to enable these guys to do this in the first place? |
Honestly? A lot of it comes from legit medical research. EPO was originally used to treat cancer patients and others with low hemocrit counts. HGH has legitimate applications in treating growth related disorders.
Steroids same way- there are LEGITIMATE MEDICAL reasons for most of these treatments. Now the key is, when you take a legitimate medical procedure and then apply that treatment to a healthy athlete. There's where the line starts to blur.
There's not an easy answer. And the thing to remember is that a lot of these guys who dope aren't the Jan Ulrichs, or Ivan Bassos. It's the domestiques who get ground into a pulp on a daily basis. These guys work their tush off for the Boss, and struggle in to the end of the stage. They don't finish, they don't do that job they don't eat. These guys don't have endorsement deals. The have to get the job done.
Now I am in NO WAY saying doping is good or ethical. But I understand where the desire to get an edge comes from.
Cycling catches more dopers than most sports. That's not cause more folks dope in cycling. I'm willing to bet that the percentage of doping baseball stars in the US is comperable to the percentage of cyclists.
Baseball just has a better union. :/ |
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06/30/2006 05:56:49 PM · #37 |
Originally posted by blemt:
Cycling catches more dopers than most sports. That's not cause more folks dope in cycling. I'm willing to bet that the percentage of doping baseball stars in the US is comperable to the percentage of cyclists.
Baseball just has a better union. :/ |
There's little doubt in my mind that there are still a large number of baseball players using PE's. I think that number has dropped dramatically over the past couple of years- look at chest sizes compared to 5 years ago. One of the great sins of baseball is that they knew that McGwire, Sosa and who knows how many others were using performance enhancers. Baseball looked the other way, because it was good for baseball. Now they're paying the price. I love baseball and always will. But, I want it to be clean. I can live without somebody hitting 75 homeruns a year.
I applaud cycling for having the guts to go after some of their highest profile athletes. If only a few more sports would do it, they might start making some progress.
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06/30/2006 06:01:49 PM · #38 |
Originally posted by Rikki:
Lance doping? I think I'll disagree here.
The thing that most people don't seem to understand is that cycling is not an individual sport. Lance would not have been able to do the amazing things he did without a great team behind him. He also has a smart manager in Johan Bruyneel and an even smarter coach in Chris Carmichael. Prior to his testicular cancer, Lance used brute strength to pedal his way up the mountains and in time trials. It won him the World Championships in '93 but his style wasn't as good before. After he battled cancer, he got smart mostly in part to his coach. His cadence got better averging 100 rpms. |
and all the more remarkable that everyone that ever even came close to challenging him seems to have been doping in one way or another. Every single person that even got close. Remarkable.
Millar
Ullrich
Basso
Heras
Panatini
Hamilton
Beloki
Just amazing that he managed to stand head and shoulders above that field, for the longest run in the history of the race, when every one of them was on something.
Message edited by author 2006-06-30 18:03:15. |
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06/30/2006 06:02:13 PM · #39 |
Originally posted by vxpra:
I don't buy these pro athletes that say, 'How was I supposed to know what he was giving me, I thought it was vitamins'. If your being paid 10 million a year you should be more concerned about what's going into your body.
Okay rant over..... |
I couldn't agree more! When my daughter was in Athletics we had to check everything she took to see it wasn't on the banned list. She was aware that she could be tested from the age of 13 or so and if a child can question what they are taking, adult sportspeople can certainly do so. My own concession on this is that the trust between coach and sportsperson is very special - my daughter would have done anything for her coach - so coaches must be whiter than white too. BTW Europe is VERY hot on drug testing.
Poor Italy isn't having a happy time at present with this scandal and the football league scandal as well!!!
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06/30/2006 06:58:05 PM · #40 |
Originally posted by hyperfocal:
It is a shame to see the classiest sport on earth go the way of baseball or football. Still I̢۪ll be glued to OLN from the start to the finish, no matter who gets the yellows. |
Let's keep things in perspective here. Talk is cheap and rumours abound. Baseball has only had a handful of players proven to use performance enhanceing substances while cycling has had many of the top riders found gulity. Cycling has had agressive testing in place for much longer, but it doesn't seem to be working. Sure it's a problem in major league baseball and the NFL, but not on any where the scale as in cycling where it appears that nearly everyone is doing it, and maybe it's been like that for a long time. And what makes cycling the "classiest sport on earth" anyway? That's the first time I've heard that line.
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06/30/2006 07:42:23 PM · #41 |
Originally posted by coolhar:
And what makes cycling the "classiest sport on earth" anyway? That's the first time I've heard that line. |
If you don't ride, you won't understand. |
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06/30/2006 08:10:10 PM · #42 |
Originally posted by Rikki:
Originally posted by coolhar:
And what makes cycling the "classiest sport on earth" anyway? That's the first time I've heard that line. |
If you don't ride, you won't understand. |
Yep. There's something absolutely magical about riding a bike. Really. I don't race and never will (too old, slow, and uncoordinated) but I marvel at what those guys that do race can accomplish.
Is Vino out, too? They pulled the team, so I guess he is, which is too bad since it appears he wasn't one of the riders implicated. |
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06/30/2006 08:14:48 PM · #43 |
| Vino is out since Wurth cannot field the mnimum 7 riders :( |
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06/30/2006 08:20:24 PM · #44 |
Hey Deb. Here is the poster sans the signatures ;) I have to figure out how to scan a 20"x30" poster in color ;)
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06/30/2006 09:23:18 PM · #45 |
| Left a comment, and thanks!! |
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06/30/2006 09:49:46 PM · #46 |
Originally posted by coolhar:
Sure it's a problem in major league baseball and the NFL, but not on any where the scale as in cycling where it appears that nearly everyone is doing it, and maybe it's been like that for a long time. |
Cycling has manditory in season testing at EVERY event. Every race. MANDITORY multiple off season random testing. They show up, you don't piss in the cup- you are done.
In the tour, the stage winner is tested at the end of the stage. The tour leader is tested end of stage. Riders are randomly selected every stage for testing. You get off the bike, after riding up and down 100 miles. You hurt, you stink, you get off the bike you go to doping control and you get tested.
No non-Olympic sport in the US has even close to the same testing standard. I can promise you that if they did you would have a TON of players hitting those lists.
To give you an idea...say that the Giants go to the World Series. Barry Bonds is tested, blood and urine before the series starts. Game 1, Barry hits a home run. He's tested end of game. The winning pitcher is tested end of game. Next game, someone else hits a home run, he's tested, winning pitcher is tested. Randomly Barry is selected and tested. Next game, winning pitcher is tested...and so on. Last game of the series, Barry wins MVP, he's tested, winning pitcher is tested, guy who saves the game is tested, randomly another player is tested...
2 weeks later, knock at Barry's door. Doping control. Here for one of your random off season tests.
THIS is doping control testing in pro cycling.
You are also not understanding WHAT these guys get tested for. They get tested for stuff that has not been tested for in the US until recently. Their blood and urine are tested. Their blood is stored and subjected to tests as new procedures are developed... I am a long time, die hard baseball fan. Drug testing in baseball is a complete and utter joke. This isn't being mean, this isn't American bashing. It's just how it is.
NOTHING like this in US pro sports. |
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06/30/2006 10:10:20 PM · #47 |
Can they test for HGH? I have heard that there is no way to test for that yet. And if the are only testing urine (just what blemt said) they are missing drugs that could be found in a blood sample.
Its a mess, and the dopers will always be one step ahead of the people that investigate the dopers.
Sad deal, for all sports.
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06/30/2006 10:14:00 PM · #48 |
| There is no reliable urine test for it. There is a very accurate blood test. :) Particularly if you are doing it by getting a blood sample pre season, then testing randomly along the way. |
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07/02/2006 11:47:10 AM · #49 |
Originally posted by blemt:
Originally posted by coolhar:
Sure it's a problem in major league baseball and the NFL, but not on any where the scale as in cycling where it appears that nearly everyone is doing it, and maybe it's been like that for a long time. |
Cycling has manditory in season testing at EVERY event. Every race. MANDITORY multiple off season random testing. They show up, you don't piss in the cup- you are done.
In the tour, the stage winner is tested at the end of the stage. The tour leader is tested end of stage. Riders are randomly selected every stage for testing. You get off the bike, after riding up and down 100 miles. You hurt, you stink, you get off the bike you go to doping control and you get tested.
No non-Olympic sport in the US has even close to the same testing standard. I can promise you that if they did you would have a TON of players hitting those lists.
To give you an idea...say that the Giants go to the World Series. Barry Bonds is tested, blood and urine before the series starts. Game 1, Barry hits a home run. He's tested end of game. The winning pitcher is tested end of game. Next game, someone else hits a home run, he's tested, winning pitcher is tested. Randomly Barry is selected and tested. Next game, winning pitcher is tested...and so on. Last game of the series, Barry wins MVP, he's tested, winning pitcher is tested, guy who saves the game is tested, randomly another player is tested...
2 weeks later, knock at Barry's door. Doping control. Here for one of your random off season tests.
THIS is doping control testing in pro cycling.
You are also not understanding WHAT these guys get tested for. They get tested for stuff that has not been tested for in the US until recently. Their blood and urine are tested. Their blood is stored and subjected to tests as new procedures are developed... I am a long time, die hard baseball fan. Drug testing in baseball is a complete and utter joke. This isn't being mean, this isn't American bashing. It's just how it is.
NOTHING like this in US pro sports. |
I don't deny that cycling has a much more advanced testing structure than baseball. That's not what I said. The point I was trying to make is that the practice of taking performance enhancing substances is more widespread, indeed prevalent, in cycling than it is in the major leagues. Baseball, in both the taking and in the testing, is a johnny-come-lately to this problem. And it is moving too slowly for many fans, including me. But there is no reason to believe that MLB will not eventually be as drug free as any program can make it, and that will likely come before it gets to the point where nearly everyone is taking dope as appears be the case in cycling currently. Baseball also has a track record showing success in changing player's behavior when you look at the BAT program that is approaching the end of it's mission to eliminate chewing tobacco from the sport.
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07/02/2006 12:27:49 PM · #50 |
A few things:
As other people have mentioned, all these drugs have legitimate medical uses. That's where the research comes from. Epo treats anemia, HGH treats short stature, anabolic steroids treats hereditary angioedema. (just for examples)
To Rikki, having found EPO in Lance's system in '98 is incriminating to me. EPO is not found in other chemotherapy agents. EPO is used to combat the anemia that can result from the chemotherapy. (So my point is that you don't give Drug X, which happens to have EPO in it.) HOWEVER, EPO has a half life of 8.5 hours. Pharmicokinetics tells us that 5 half-lives are all that's required to remove a drug from a system. So unless Lance was getting chemo while he was tested (and the concede that I don't know if this positive test was during the off season or what), it's unlikely the EPO was there for a legitimate reason. |
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