Discover Freedom - DPChallenge Forums

03/25/2003 03:55:29 PM · #526

Originally posted by dwoolridge:

Originally posted by achiral:
i totally agree with you. what do you think about a position like france's where they basically say they will veto any resolution that has triggers to military action in them. this is hardly being helpful towards the resolution you have in mind.

I've stated my opinion on France before, but to reiterate, I believe it was a bluff to bring the US back to the diplomacy table, probably in recognizing that the US was mostly decided in the matter themselves. It's difficult, if not impossible, for any democratic-capitalist society that sells weapons to non-such countries to maintain the moral high ground and not seem duplicitous. China and Russia would probably have vetoed in the same cases as France, but they were less confrontational and outspoken about it. All speculation of course.

France is not exactly a prize-winning diplomatic state, but I firmly believe they would simply like to see all diplomatic channels explored exhaustively.

Originally posted by achiral:
what do you think of the idea that has been brought up before about the UN basically putting intense unanimous pressure on Iraq with the threat of force, knowing that chances are that war could be averted if saddam thinks the whole world is against him. i just think the UN missed an oppurtunity to end it earlier by focusing on the US rush to war. if multilateral pressure was put on saddam, i don't think we would be at war today

Well, this viewpoint certainly presupposes a realistic outlook on Hussein's part. Hussein does not see what we see: a weakened & unsupportive people; an impotent & dismantled military; instability within Iraq; an infrastructure destroyed & decaying. The tyrant does not want to be told these things and wants to be told what they they tell others. There is no reality in Iraq, only the Koran, written in Hussein's blood, and a tyrant, so gripped by his own ego, he only sees himself.

If Iraq were to be on the UN agenda in this way, I do think that military force would have been inevitable. I'm not talking about the dismantling/destruction of weapons; Hussein would have eventually complied as fully as required by the resolutions. However, in the case of overthrowing Hussein, for humanitarian reasons, supposing the UN would even get near such an issue, intervention and co-operation would likely only be achieved through the use of force.

Again, we should certainly and by no means be singling out Iraq in this respect and one must be careful of hypocrisy. The US has its own history with snubbing its nose at the UN/UNSC and other countries have brutal dictators installed.

One task at a time.

what will happen if/when the US finds what it is looking for? What will happen if it doesn't?

03/25/2003 04:03:16 PM · #527

i know the soviets and americans had trained dolphins during the cold war to seek out and shoot divers with guns attached to their noses. this is amazing to see how one of the smartest animals in the world can be used

bamaster

Canon EOS-D30

03/25/2003 04:03:23 PM · #528

dwoolridge

03/25/2003 04:06:22 PM · #529

Originally posted by achiral:

what will happen if/when the US finds what it is looking for? What will happen if it doesn't?

Then they'll use the evidence to justify the means with which they achieved their ends, not stopping to note that the ends might have been achieved through other means. It's circular and self-fulfilling.

On a sarcastic, cynical note, the US is looking for oil, not bio/chem weapons and I think they'll be really unhappy if they don't find any.

Personally, I think the oil issue is merely supportive motivation, not reason. Having control over oil reserves in Iraq would certainly give the US a wonderful way to combat OPEC, a body which has plagued the US for decades.

If you remove the need for oil (through alternative energy sources), the US interest in the middle east will wane like the moon, never to wax again.

03/25/2003 04:20:41 PM · #530

Originally posted by dwoolridge:

Originally posted by achiral:
what will happen if/when the US finds what it is looking for? What will happen if it doesn't?

Then they'll use the evidence to justify the means with which they achieved their ends, not stopping to note that the ends might have been achieved through other means. It's circular and self-fulfilling.

On a sarcastic, cynical note, the US is looking for oil, not bio/chem weapons and I think they'll be really unhappy if they don't find any.

Personally, I think the oil issue is merely supportive motivation, not reason. Having control over oil reserves in Iraq would certainly give the US a wonderful way to combat OPEC, a body which has plagued the US for decades.

If you remove the need for oil (through alternative energy sources), the US interest in the middle east will wane like the moon, never to wax again.

exactly, couldn't agree more

03/25/2003 04:23:00 PM · #531

I got this in an e-mail:

You know the world is going crazy when.....

the best rapper is a white guy,

the best golfer is a black guy,

the tallest NBA player is Chinese,

and Germany doesn't want to go to war.

03/25/2003 09:42:41 PM · #532

Originally posted by dwoolridge:

There is no reality in Iraq, only the Koran, written in Hussein's blood, and a tyrant, so gripped by his own ego, he only sees himself.

As much as I respect everything you've posted, this statement isn't correct. People keep getting Saddam mixed up in their fear of Islamic fundamentalism, but he is barely religious at all. He's like Stalin, Mussolini or Hitler - all of them virtually atheistic dictators. It actually makes sense not to push religion when you're a fascist, because you get to set yourself up in the position of "god" to your people... and that's the kind of thing Saddam has done.

It's not true either that he only sees himself. He killed a lot of people to get where he is, and he has lived each day expecting to be killed in turn. That's why he has body doubles and never goes out in public. His mentality is to fight to the death because I don't think he has ever expected to die of old age. You can't threaten him with death when he probably sees himself as a martyr already.

03/25/2003 09:47:54 PM · #533

Originally posted by achiral:

They're being used to detect mines, actually. I can't help wondering if the dolphins would actually do this if anyone explained what it was for :P. I think they'd say "Bah, you monkeys can do your own dirty work, we'll just go over here and play in the water".

03/25/2003 09:53:16 PM · #534

To anyone who wants to know what the future is for the Middle East if this war is successful, just rock on over to that site I posted before: Project for the New American Century. There you will find memos, papers, etc. written by the Bush administration's closest advisors. These 3 paragraphs from one of the articles there, by William Kristol, outlines exactly what the point of this war is:

So in addition to hoping for and encouraging change from within Saudi Arabia, we should develop strategic alternatives to reliance on Riyadh. In the military sphere, we have already begun to hedge, with agreements and deployments to other Gulf emirates. Although still the strongest influence on oil prices, other source -- in Russia, the Caspian Basin, Mexico and elsewhere -- can be developed and brought to market at a reasonable cost. The attacks of September 11 remind us that it is not just what we pay at the pump but what we pay in lives, security and international political stability that comprise the true price of Saudi oil.

In particular, removing the regime of Saddam Hussein and helping construct a decent Iraqi society and economy would be a tremendous step toward reducing Saudi leverage. Bringing Iraqi oil fully into world markets would improve energy economics. From a military and strategic perspective, Iraq is more important than Saudi Arabia. And building a representative government in Baghdad would demonstrate that democracy can work in the Arab world. This, too, would be a useful challenge to the current Saudi regime.

In sum, we should not be attempting to preserve our past relationship with Saudi Arabia but rather forging a new approach to the greater Middle East. We have learned at great cost that Persian Gulf dictators, be they in Tehran, Baghdad or Riyadh, are shaky partners at best and cause major problems at worst. In the future we must find an alternative, either through reform in Saudi Arabia and/or the fostering of other relationships with truer allies, to a Saudi regime that funds and foments terror.

Read the rest. I think we can expect "regime change" to hit Saudi in the next couple of years.... and yes, it IS about oil.

03/25/2003 10:56:24 PM · #535

Originally posted by lisae:

Originally posted by achiral:

i know the soviets and americans had trained dolphins during the cold war to seek out and shoot divers with guns attached to their noses. this is amazing to see how one of the smartest animals in the world can be used

They're being used to detect mines, actually. I can't help wondering if the dolphins would actually do this if anyone explained what it was for :P. I think they'd say "Bah, you monkeys can do your own dirty work, we'll just go over here and play in the water".

you don't read or understand english do you. the word soviet would put the reference back 15 years...i was referring to a story i saw where 300 or so dolphins had been trained to roam the black sea in search of navy seal divers that might be trying to infiltrate the ussr. the dolphins had 9mm pistols attached to their nose cones and were trained to identify and fire on humans in the water

your policy of contradicting everyone about anything, however small, just keeps isolating you further and further into oblivion

Message edited by author 2003-03-25 23:00:18.

03/25/2003 11:06:32 PM · #536

Originally posted by achiral:

you don't read or understand english do you. the word soviet would put the reference back 15 years...

The photo, however, is recent. You didn't make any distinction between how they were used before and how they are being used now. I just described how they're being used now, in case anyone else (like me) would be horrified at the idea that dolphins would be used to kill people. The fact that they're being used to save lives (ostensibly... although the mines are put there by the enemy to protect themselves) is a lot easier to handle.

It wasn't meant as a contradiction, just a further explanation.

03/25/2003 11:24:07 PM · #537

have it YOUR way

03/25/2003 11:28:44 PM · #538

Originally posted by achiral:

have it YOUR way

*Sigh*. You've got your war, and you still don't want people voicing their opposition. Why do you even care? You have it your way. Are we all supposed to applaud and suddenly agree with you?

dwoolridge

03/25/2003 11:32:53 PM · #539

Originally posted by lisae:

Originally posted by dwoolridge:
There is no reality in Iraq, only the Koran, written in Hussein's blood, and a tyrant, so gripped by his own ego, he only sees himself.

As much as I respect everything you've posted, this statement isn't correct. People keep getting Saddam mixed up in their fear of Islamic fundamentalism, but he is barely religious at all.

Actually, the statement was meant completely figuratively (obvious to the keen observer), albeit with a fact or two thrown in for good measure. You've just tried to interpret where it was not required; what I said about the Koran was quite literal. There is such a one, written in his blood and I'm completely aware of the (somewhat) secular nature of the ruling body in Iraq right now. Keep in mind that Hussein still maintains an outward impression of following the faith; why else would he commission genealogists to demonstrate his direct descendency from Muhammad? It's a hard sell either way. Who knows what lurks in the shadowy mind of the great uncle.

Originally posted by lisae:

It actually makes sense not to push religion when you're a fascist, because you get to set yourself up in the position of "god" to your people... and that's the kind of thing Saddam has done.

And he's done that by using religion, not by denouncing it. By placing himself as the direct descendant of Muhammad, he is automatically awarded great honour and reverence. Authoritarianism is not mutually exclusive of religion, despite your limited historical examples.

Originally posted by lisae:

It's not true either that he only sees himself. He killed a lot of people to get where he is, and he has lived each day expecting to be killed in turn. That's why he has body doubles and never goes out in public. His mentality is to fight to the death because I don't think he has ever expected to die of old age. You can't threaten him with death when he probably sees himself as a martyr already.

I'm sure we don't really know what he expects, but reports from exiled/escaped advisors does indicate he is only interested in hearing the viewpoints he projects. Those who try to give him a dose of reality are dismissed or worse. This is consistent with my figure of speech. I'm really not sure why you would take what I wrote so literally.

There are other speculative interpretations of the (very few) facts you state. The picture you paint is just one such example. I won't give others, because there are so many and have been written about elsewhere.

Canon 12x IS USM (S3 IS built-in Lens) -- 36-432mm (35mm EQ)

03/25/2003 11:49:54 PM · #540

dwoolridge - I didn't mean to start an argument about Hussein, I just find that people online and in the media have all kinds of bizarre stereotypes and get "Arab" confused with "Muslim" all the time. Living next door to Indonesia, I am well aware that not all Muslims are Arabs, and Saddam is proof that not all Arabs are Muslims.

I am not accusing you personally of this, but the way you said "There is no reality in Iraq, only the Koran, written in Hussein's blood" makes it sound like a theocratic rule, that's all. As much as he has used Islam lately in order to appeal to the Shia in Iraq and the fundamentalist regimes all around him, that's not the way his regime appears to work, from everything I've read.

The tone of your post is quite antagonistic. I really don't want to get into an argument about this kind of thing, but a respectful discussion with someone like you who has a good understanding of these issues would be great.

GeneralE

Canon PowerShot S3 IS

03/26/2003 12:38:59 AM · #541

Originally posted by Geocide:

And don't forget that the two most dominant tennis players are a pair of black sisters...

dwoolridge

03/26/2003 01:42:23 AM · #542

Originally posted by lisae:

Yes, you're right and in my zeal for ... hmm ... artistic brevity, I have perhaps equated the two somewhat.
Your point is taken and not ill-received.

Originally posted by lisae:

I am not accusing you personally of this, but the way you said "There is no reality in Iraq, only the Koran, written in Hussein's blood" makes it sound like a theocratic rule, that's all. As much as he has used Islam lately in order to appeal to the Shia in Iraq and the fundamentalist regimes all around him, that's not the way his regime appears to work, from everything I've read.

My intention was to portray Hussein as projecting himself on all things, even the Koran, in which he has questionable belief. To me, it matters little whether we look upon the Hussein regime as theocracy or autocracy; as you allude, the line is blurred. On the other hand, the distinction may be important for other reasons, most of which you have noted in previous posts.

Originally posted by lisae:

The tone of your post is quite antagonistic. I really don't want to get into an argument about this kind of thing, but a respectful discussion with someone like you who has a good understanding of these issues would be great.

No antagonism intended, though you may infer a defensive tone. The juxtaposition of (reasonable) criticism and apropos generalization perhaps led to this. My parenthetical remarks were gratuitous personal barbs and I apologize for them.

--
You must be the change you wish to see in the world. -Ghandi
The greatest menace to the world today is the growing, exploiting, irresponsible imperialism. -Ghandi

Canon EF 17-40mm f/4.0L USM

03/26/2003 01:46:48 AM · #543

Originally posted by dwoolridge:

Originally posted by lisae:
dwoolridge - I didn't mean to start an argument about Hussein, I just find that people online and in the media have all kinds of bizarre stereotypes and get "Arab" confused with "Muslim" all the time. Living next door to Indonesia, I am well aware that not all Muslims are Arabs, and Saddam is proof that not all Arabs are Muslims.

Yes, you're right and in my zeal for ... hmm ... artistic brevity, I have perhaps equated the two somewhat.
Your point is taken and not ill-received.

Originally posted by lisae:

I am not accusing you personally of this, but the way you said "There is no reality in Iraq, only the Koran, written in Hussein's blood" makes it sound like a theocratic rule, that's all. As much as he has used Islam lately in order to appeal to the Shia in Iraq and the fundamentalist regimes all around him, that's not the way his regime appears to work, from everything I've read.

My intention was to portray Hussein as projecting himself on all things, even the Koran, in which he has questionable belief. To me, it matters little whether we look upon the Hussein regime as theocracy or autocracy; as you allude, the line is blurred. On the other hand, the distinction may be important for other reasons, most of which you have noted in previous posts.

Originally posted by lisae:
The tone of your post is quite antagonistic. I really don't want to get into an argument about this kind of thing, but a respectful discussion with someone like you who has a good understanding of these issues would be great.

No antagonism intended, though you may infer a defensive tone. The juxtaposition of (reasonable) criticism and apropos generalization perhaps led to this. My parenthetical remarks were gratuitous personal barbs and I apologize for them.

--
You must be the change you wish to see in the world. -Ghandi
The greatest menace to the world today is the growing, exploiting, irresponsible imperialism. -Ghandi

finally a canadian that makes sense

jimmythefish

Canon EOS-10D

03/26/2003 02:47:15 AM · #544

Originally posted by achiral:

Originally posted by dwoolridge:
Originally posted by lisae:
dwoolridge - I didn't mean to start an argument about Hussein, I just find that people online and in the media have all kinds of bizarre stereotypes and get "Arab" confused with "Muslim" all the time. Living next door to Indonesia, I am well aware that not all Muslims are Arabs, and Saddam is proof that not all Arabs are Muslims.

Yes, you're right and in my zeal for ... hmm ... artistic brevity, I have perhaps equated the two somewhat.
Your point is taken and not ill-received.

Originally posted by lisae:

I am not accusing you personally of this, but the way you said "There is no reality in Iraq, only the Koran, written in Hussein's blood" makes it sound like a theocratic rule, that's all. As much as he has used Islam lately in order to appeal to the Shia in Iraq and the fundamentalist regimes all around him, that's not the way his regime appears to work, from everything I've read.

My intention was to portray Hussein as projecting himself on all things, even the Koran, in which he has questionable belief. To me, it matters little whether we look upon the Hussein regime as theocracy or autocracy; as you allude, the line is blurred. On the other hand, the distinction may be important for other reasons, most of which you have noted in previous posts.

Originally posted by lisae:
The tone of your post is quite antagonistic. I really don't want to get into an argument about this kind of thing, but a respectful discussion with someone like you who has a good understanding of these issues would be great.

No antagonism intended, though you may infer a defensive tone. The juxtaposition of (reasonable) criticism and apropos generalization perhaps led to this. My parenthetical remarks were gratuitous personal barbs and I apologize for them.

--
You must be the change you wish to see in the world. -Ghandi
The greatest menace to the world today is the growing, exploiting, irresponsible imperialism. -Ghandi

finally a canadian that makes sense

all you can do is make personal barbs and shots...i stand by my statements that this is nothing but a war to serve the US economic interests in the region, and to stabilise oil reserves - sanctions still don't give the US control over them, just the ability to delay others' control. the political timing was perfect to use the fact (i am most certainly anti-hussein) that hussein is a dictator and a threat to his own people, and to operate under the guise of 'iraqi freedom', which we all know is horse manure and will only serve to exchange one regime for another. how can you have a democracy 'placed' in a country? that's completely against the fundamental principles of democracy...the shiites will simply persecute the sunnis next time around. if the abandonment and anarchy that is afghanistan is any indication, iraq will be in serious political and economic turmoil for years to come. i'm not posting anymore on this issue...you've got the war, your country and your poor soldiers will pay the price for its leaders' empirialism.

i would have supported action if the UN was involved...i wouldn't have agreed that war is the answer, but at least it would have been done in a manner which does not encourage dubious, future international policies. without the UN it's just a bunch of cowboys thwarting the international community and setting fire to the ability of future civilisations to work together to forge a common future. these are giant steps backwards in the formation of a global citizenry.

james.

Message edited by author 2003-03-26 13:49:28.

GeneralE

Canon PowerShot S3 IS

Canon 12x IS USM (S3 IS built-in Lens) -- 36-432mm (35mm EQ)

03/26/2003 02:54:07 AM · #545

I don't know, there's many times over the last 33 years when I felt that simply being a Canadian made sense...

rj324

Nikon D7000

Nikon AF-S DX NIKKOR 18-200mm f/3.5-5.6G ED VR II

03/26/2003 06:35:54 AM · #546

What is the Iraqi air force motto? I came, I saw, Iran.

Have you heard about the new Iraqi air force exercise program? Each
morning you raise your hands above your head, and leave them there.

What's the five-day forecast for Baghdad? Two days.

What do Miss Muffet and Saddam Hussein have in common? They both
have Kurds in their way.

What is the best Iraqi job? Foreign ambassador.

Did you hear that it is twice as easy to train Iraqi fighter
pilots? You only have to teach them to take off.

How do you play Iraqi bingo? B-52 ... F-16 ... B-52

What is Iraq's national bird? Duck.

What do Saddam Hussein and General Custer have in common? They both
want to know where the hell those Tomahawks are coming from!

Why does the Iraqi navy have glass bottom boats? So they can see
their air force.

03/26/2003 08:12:23 PM · #547

eh, nevermind...

Message edited by author 2003-03-26 20:56:33.

03/28/2003 02:49:53 AM · #548

I just posted this in the Freedom Fries Thread, but i thought is was also apporpiate here as well.

Well, It's always interesting to see everyone's true colors when conflicts. That's why i like fights, people don't lie, they say truly what they think. And frankly i'm shocked. As if there's no separation between a government and the people. Just because we didnâ��t get our way in the US do we really have to through a finical tamper tantrum? They have good reason for disagreeing along with 260 something other countries. The only reason the few countries that are with us are, is because of the money (via trade agreements etc...) we're sending them.

This conflict has caused the "rubber to meet the road" and with all the short sidedness and racism, Iâ��m feeling more like it's the 1960's rather than than present day.

This is a sad time to be an American, so much arrogance and so little humanity.

IF youâ��re a Christian person, there is no way to be Christian and support the killing of others, bottom line. And if some say that this necessary, why wasn't it necessary for the inspectors to finish there inspections. If you buy into that What would Jesus philosophy, do you think Jesus would have done what our president has commanded? Would have Jesus, send a missive military into Iraq to slaughter whoever has a weapon? That's what France was saying.

May every soldier (both Iraqi and American) return to their families. Both soldigers are just being loyal to their leader.

04/01/2003 10:22:05 AM · #549

I think this thread has some life in it yet...
Did you all hear about the 7 women and children that were killed by american soldigers? Apparently th estopy centeral command told was heavily spun, a washington post reported witnessed the slaughter and said it wasn't nearly as clear cut as they announced. (i heard this on NPR.org (morning eddition)). If you think this is the first govermental spin, you're living in a dream world.