Challenge Rules re Collaboration

Canon EF-S 17-55mm f/2.8 IS USM

05/19/2006 11:41:33 AM · #1

Hi. Question. I was voting and came across an image that (to me) clearly looks like it took more than one person to capture the image. I was considering requesting validation and read the following text that comes up with the validation request form.

Underlining of text added for emphasis.
We ask that you please be very descriptive. If you are unsure what is or is not allowed, please read through the Advanced Editing rules or you can ask in our forums. Your suggestion will be reviewed by the Site Council, and if necessary, appropriate action will be taken.

This is what is posted in the challenge rules.

Ownership: The photograph you enter must be taken and post-processed by you. You may let someone else press the shutter if you are unable to, but you must be the one who set up the shot and configured the camera. If you wish to collaborate with others when creating your submission, you will need express permission from the administrators beforehand.

In your opinion, what is collaboration? Is it ok for someone else to press the shutter, and if so, under what conditions?

idnic

Canon EOS-60D

05/19/2006 11:45:10 AM · #2

With self timers and locking remotes, not to mention tripods, etc... I can't imagine a situation that would require another person. Not saying their isn't one, but I can't think of any....

Canon 12x IS USM (S3 IS built-in Lens) -- 36-432mm (35mm EQ)

05/19/2006 11:45:14 AM · #3

I don't like the part about discussing it in the forums. Rather than doing that here, I strongly suggest you do what is suggested in every other case of suspected rules violation, that is Request Validation of the photo and vote as if it is legal.

We allow certain types of collaboration, but the forums are not the place to discuss the merits of any particular case, particularly during the voting period.

fotomann_forever

05/19/2006 11:47:20 AM · #4

There was a second shooter on the grassy knoll.

05/19/2006 11:49:41 AM · #5

I'm following the suggestion as written on the validation request form. It states exactly as follows (bold added to isolate text):

We ask that you please be very descriptive. If you are unsure what is or is not allowed, please read through the Advanced Editing rules or you can ask in our forums. Your suggestion will be reviewed by the Site Council, and if necessary, appropriate action will be taken.

I'm asking in the forums.

I've not identified the image, nor have I even identified which of the 4 challenges I was looking at at the time.

05/19/2006 11:52:22 AM · #6

Originally posted by idnic:

With self timers and locking remotes, not to mention tripods, etc... I can't imagine a situation that would require another person. Not saying their isn't one, but I can't think of any....

I agree, and that's why I'm asking because based on the situation I noticed it's time to imagine. ;^)

Canon 12x IS USM (S3 IS built-in Lens) -- 36-432mm (35mm EQ)

05/19/2006 11:55:06 AM · #7

Originally posted by glad2badad:

I'm asking in the forums.

Why?

I think that's a bad instruction you got. I still suggest that you ask that the photo be validated via the usual means.

There's no way to discuss it in the forums without identifying the photo, now is there?

Elaine

Canon EOS R5

Canon EF 24-105mm f/4.0L IS II USM Lens

05/19/2006 11:55:13 AM · #8

How about just a discussion on what constitutes collaboration, when is it legal and when has it gone too far.

Canon 12x IS USM (S3 IS built-in Lens) -- 36-432mm (35mm EQ)

05/19/2006 11:59:24 AM · #9

Originally posted by chaimelle:

How about just a discussion on what constitutes collaboration, when is it legal and when has it gone too far.

Because right now it's come up in the context of a particular challenge entry.

I think the generalized discussion can wait until the challenge is over ...

Besides, I'm not sure it's a subject which needs discussion by the general membership, since you're not involved in deciding any of the particular instances.

If you have a personal interest in whether something you propose to do is legal/ethical, then you can inquire of the SC or maybe post that in the forums.

Message edited by author 2006-05-19 11:59:40.

Beetle

Canon EOS-5D Mark II

Canon EF 24-105mm f/4.0L IS

05/19/2006 12:01:18 PM · #10

Here is my two cents worth:
Actually pressing the shutter button is child's play, there are so many decisions that happen BEFORE that point, and those are the ones that count, those are the ones that make or break a photo.

If the photographer has decided the location, arranged the lighting (or decided on the time of day etc), managed the props, decided on and set the camera settings, etc etc etc, then it is still his/her photo, even if someone else ends up pushing the button.

Nikon AF Nikkor 85mm f/1.4D IF

05/19/2006 12:03:32 PM · #11

Originally posted by chaimelle:

How about just a discussion on what constitutes collaboration, when is it legal and when has it gone too far.

Yes. That is part of the OP.

If you are unsure what is or is not allowed, please read through the Advanced Editing rules or you can ask in our forums.

I am unsure of what is or is not allowed regarding this subject and I've read the Advanced Editing rules.

No specific entry, nor specific challenge has been mentioned.

So, to paraphrase chaimelle - "what constitutes collaboration, when is it legal and when has it gone too far?"

Thoughts? Comments?

Majanka

Nikon D300

05/19/2006 12:17:07 PM · #12

I guess that was my picture, and I can asure you It took only me to make the picture! LoL Maybe you have ever heard of a tripod and a selftimer on your cam? ;)

Canon EF 24-105mm f/4.0L IS II USM Lens

05/19/2006 12:21:17 PM · #13

Originally posted by Majanka:

I guess that was my picture, and I can asure you It took only me to make the picture! LoL Maybe you have ever heard of a tripod and a selftimer on your cam? ;)

Of course. I have a tripod, remote control, and use the self-timer. Those all work great to take an image by yourself.

BTW - based on what you describe, it wasn't yours. ;^)

When is it going over the line when it takes more than one person to capture an image, pertaining to collaboration rules?

Elaine

Canon EOS R5

05/19/2006 12:21:47 PM · #14

I have gotten general ideas from others, but have always used those ideas to create my own shot. I have never asked anyone for help with lighting, camera settings, composition etc. I have asked my family if they like a certain shot, but none know enough about photography to say more than yes or no. I don't always use their opinions anyway.

Collaboration, to me, would be 2 or more people deciding what to shoot or how to shoot it. I am not sure where the line is drawn between legal and not legal as far as this site is concerned, and have never really worried about it personally as I just do my own thing.

I am not sure why saying "a, b and c are OK, but x, y and z are not" is a problem. We don't know what the OP saw that he is questioning, or what challenge he saw it in. Yes, he can just request a DQ, but is this really so different from discussing what makes a still life?

05/19/2006 12:38:49 PM · #15

This isn't going to work. For those that have mentioned it, the only way to really discuss this subject is to have an example at hand. Since it's an active challenge entry I obviously can't do that.

The wording that comes up when you request a challenge entry validation really needs to be reworked because trying to raise a question in the forums on an active challenge entry isn't really practical.

This is the text that comes up when you select ('Click here if you suspect a rules violation.'):

We ask that you please be very descriptive. If you are unsure what is or is not allowed, please read through the Advanced Editing rules or you can ask in our forums. Your suggestion will be reviewed by the Site Council, and if necessary, appropriate action will be taken.

FWIW - I'm not requesting validation on the image. It's too vaque, this whole collaboration and shutter release question. Perhaps after the challenge has ended it can be revisited?

sabphoto

Samsung Galaxy S8/S8+

05/19/2006 12:41:40 PM · #16

I agree with most that collaboration with others in one way or another almost always happens whether on purpose or not (and personally I don't know how this would ever be proven without actual witnesses or a confession).

Giving someone the ability (permission) to press your shutter when you set up the shot and all is meaningless. Even if you use auto settings and they are determined when that person presses the shutter they still didn't make any technical decisions on it.

Unless the subject is extremely far away from camera (not sure what the range is on remote triggers or how fast the member can move before the self-timer goes off) then I don't see how you could even consider that they didn't take the image.

Originally posted by glad2badad:

...
No specific entry, nor specific challenge has been mentioned....

btw...you are technically implying a certain challenge by bringing this up with the current challenges going on. Otherwise why would it even make a difference.

Personally, I would recommend validation of the image (not like you'll get hurt or blamed if wrong) and leave it at that. Either vote it as legal or leave it alone till validation is received.

Message edited by author 2006-05-19 12:43:06.

hopper

Canon EOS-80D

Canon EF 35mm f/2 IS USM

05/19/2006 12:54:56 PM · #17

(General opinion only - not challenge specific)

If the 2nd person's role is ONLY to trigger the shutter, I can't think of a situation where it's NOT ok. So to answer your questions:

yes, it's ok

any and all conditions

ps ... that being said, I think you may be under estimating the creative thinking of a single person.

Originally posted by glad2badad:

In your opinion, what is collaboration? Is it ok for someone else to press the shutter, and if so, under what conditions?

Canon 12x IS USM (S3 IS built-in Lens) -- 36-432mm (35mm EQ)

05/19/2006 12:55:09 PM · #18

Originally posted by glad2badad:

This isn't going to work. ...

FWIW - I'm not requesting validation on the image. It's too vaque, this whole collaboration and shutter release question. Perhaps after the challenge has ended it can be revisited?

You're right, and I'm really getting more disturbed about this the longer it goes.

I think I've already explained that the language about "ask in the forums" really pertains to if you have a question about your own prospective technique, not to question the validity of someone else's.

Now you say you're suspicious of "some photo" in any of four challenges, but will not ask it be validated? By doing so, you are now casting susppicion on any photo which may have a hint of being shot by a collaborative technique -- I don't think that's right, I think it will affect how people vote.

For the third time, I suggest youfollow standard procedure when confronted with a possibly rules-violating photo: request validation, vote as if it's legal, and move on.

There is no standard definition for what constitutes a legal or illegal collaboration -- the SC/admins must consider each situation on its own merits (and the discussion is not public) -- so there's really no wayt o answer that part of the question.

fotomann_forever

05/19/2006 12:57:08 PM · #19

No second shooter on the grassy knoll?

WAIT! How about a greasy troll?

Canon 12x IS USM (S3 IS built-in Lens) -- 36-432mm (35mm EQ)

05/19/2006 12:57:29 PM · #20

BTW: Quite a few cameras come with a remote, and can be triggered from anywhere.

TrynityRose

Nikon D100

Nikon AF Nikkor 50mm f/1.8

05/19/2006 12:58:40 PM · #21

Originally posted by glad2badad:

You may let someone else press the shutter if you are unable to

Is it ok for someone else to press the shutter

I think you answered your own question in setting it up. The rules state someone else can press the shutter, so yes, it is ok.

Canon EOS-20D

Tamron SP AF 28-75mm f/2.8 XR Di for Canon

05/19/2006 01:03:31 PM · #22

Originally posted by GeneralE:

With all due respect, you're honestly going to shut down this completely unspecific discussion with claims of vote swaying while threads like this pop up every three minutes?

Canon 12x IS USM (S3 IS built-in Lens) -- 36-432mm (35mm EQ)

05/19/2006 01:06:38 PM · #23

No, I'm not shutting down the general discussion. I just don't think stating "well there's a photo I suspects breaks this rule, but I'm not going to submit it for validation" is poor etiquette -- I see no purpose to it other than to cast suspicion on a class of photos. I don't see what was wrong with my original advice, way back at the second post -- we'd be avoiding all this now.

05/19/2006 01:07:16 PM · #24

Originally posted by GeneralE:

... I think I've already explained that the language about "ask in the forums" really pertains to if you have a question about your own prospective technique, not to question the validity of someone else's. ...

To this I say "time out"! If I am going to request validation on a challenge entry it most likely isn't going to be mine, especially during voting. The verbiage certainly does apply to the validity of the technique someone else has used.

The text that is displayed to the user is quite misleading if I am to follow your line of reasoning. They shouldn't see anything about asking in the forums if they have questions about someone else's entry.