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09/02/2002 11:28:01 AM · #26 |
Originally posted by aelith:
Well my livelihood does not depend on this site. You are taking away some of the fun when you decide your way is the only way and bash people for thinking different.
Sorry... the fun of this site is working to meet the challenge. |
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09/02/2002 11:36:34 AM · #27 |
| No alansfreed... we have this argument over and over again. To some people, the challenge topic is something to give them limits to work strictly within. To others it's a launching pad to inspire them and give them ideas, and they might actually push the boundaries a bit and experiment. The first group penalise the second group. The second group are the ones who get cranky about their score and have all the arguments. As to which group has the most fun... well... it's all a rich tapestry :) |
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09/02/2002 11:47:49 AM · #28 |
| I just voted and I had a very hard time because I have a certain conception of candid that I was trying to base my score on. However, obviously, there is artistic impression and interpretation that adds in to what 'candid' is. Overall, I was pretty hard on certain photos that in my mind clearly weren't 'candid'. For some reason I believe candid shots must have people in them and they must be interacting in a non-rehearsed manner. in my mind the whole point of the voting/this site/etc is the limits of the challenge which then gives me a guideline to voting. If it were not for the challenge guidelines then I could just vote using any criteria I wished. But here, the voting and the subject matter are both limited purposefully to a tailored topic. This gives the photographer a basis to build on in a challenging way and it gives the voters a ruler by which to judge. Anyway, I am sure this conversation has been had a million times over on this site, but I needed to get it out for myself. Also, I feel like I need to explain why I gave low scores at certain points since I could not possibily comment on all these pictures. |
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09/02/2002 11:55:29 AM · #29 |
Fair enough. Everyone have their own perspective, and that is what makes this site what it is.
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09/02/2002 12:12:03 PM · #30 |
To anyone I offended:
I'm only wishing people would concentrate more on the photo than whether or not it meets their idea of the challenge. I love this forum, I love the idea of this "contest", and I love giving and getting feedback on photos.
Lionel:
My feedback has been short at times, but I've only been here for a few days so I didn't exactly know what to write at all times. As for the photos you quoted me on, I think I should not have had to write too much to explain my score. You selected quotes very carefully to get those that you posted. Look at the photos and see if the feedback isn't pretty much self-explanatory...this time around I have taken my time and thouroughly explained my scores.
You are not always too helpful yourslelf, but because you rate a picture high I guess it's okay...
"I do not know what this is but I like the shot. 7 "
Again, I just want honest, helpful feedback on my photos. I do not care to know how your definition of candid differs from mine. I will not tell you I think your idea of "childhood" is wrong. What I will tell you is that in my opinion there is far too much wasted space on the right hand side of your photo, and that maybe you should try zooming in on the subject to avoid what the NPPA refers to as a "donut shot". I only want honest feedback, not quibbling over semantics. Meeting the challenge is one part of the contest. Judge as such.
Back to everyone:
Another way to look this is:
Is this a photo contest, or an integrity contest? There is a certain amount of artistic integrity that should go into the photo you submit. If it wasn't candid, then you shouldn't submit it. To question a photo's integrity is to question a photographer's integrity as well. I do not come here to prove I can follow directions without cheating. I come here for feedback ON MY PHOTOS!
Enough said. This is supposed to be fun, you guys!
Keep shooting.
Respectfully,
11n |
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09/02/2002 12:24:26 PM · #31 |
I quoted those one of yours just because in your entry in this forum you were so 'strong' about that person. That's why.
And yes I choose those one specifically because you were talking about vocabulary and meanings and comments. I did not look to see wich pictures they were related to.
What I should not do is 'react' when people are very upset here .. because I tend to try to tell them they should not be that upset ; or I tend to try to find in their 'behavior' what they say is not good in others behavior.
I have been very happy with the comments I got this week. They were interesting because it helps you to relate things and put them in perspective. For example I am french and our school buses are not yellow like the americans one, but because I live in US right now I think that was obvious ( we french people like the yellow cabs and the yellow buses ;-) ). So for example I was not offended or upset when people said they would not see the challenge in it. I was surprised but not upset.
I did not submit for the 'candid', I started to try to vote but ... did not know how to do for the appreciation of the picture. so .. I delay that process for me .
Good luck to everybody and .. yes .. have fun !
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09/02/2002 12:30:36 PM · #32 |
| Actually, I think you have a point with the statement concerning artist's integrity. However, remember that you can request a photo be disqualified, which I am assuming means that it can be taken down for not meeting the challenge criteria/topic. In this vein I still voted for and did not request disqualification for photos this week that in my mind did not come close to any feasible conception of the word 'candid'. IN this way, I am respected the artist's integrity in submitting the particular photo for this challenge topic. And in some ways, perhaps I am not being true to my judging duties by not calling out certain photos for not, in my mind, meeting the criteria set forth in the topic. My question is, in the past, how many photos have been disqualified for not meeting the challenge topic? Also, what criteria is used to make this decision? is it a liberal standard? |
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09/02/2002 12:31:14 PM · #33 |
Originally posted by lionelm:
I quoted those one of yours just because in your entry in this forum you were so 'strong' about that person. That's why.
And yes I choose those one specifically because you were talking about vocabulary and meanings and comments. I did not look to see wich pictures they were related to.
What I should not do is 'react' when people are very upset here .. because I tend to try to tell them they should not be that upset ; or I tend to try to find in their 'behavior' what they say is not good in others behavior.
I have been very happy with the comments I got this week. They were interesting because it helps you to relate things and put them in perspective. For example I am french and our school buses are not yellow like the americans one, but because I live in US right now I think that was obvious ( we french people like the yellow cabs and the yellow buses ;-) ). So for example I was not offended or upset when people said they would not see the challenge in it. I was surprised but not upset.
I did not submit for the 'candid', I started to try to vote but ... did not know how to do for the appreciation of the picture. so .. I delay that process for me .
Good luck to everybody and .. yes .. have fun !
Well I saw the challenge in your photo. I see what YOU thought the challenge meant and I respect that fully. Frankly, I understood your photo in relation to the challenge more than many others.
I am trying to help people improve their photos through honest and informed feedback. I'm not trying to improve anyone's understanding of the directions as only I see them, and that is my only point.
Respectfully,
11n |
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09/02/2002 12:35:41 PM · #34 |
I don't see folks disqualify for not meeting the challenge.
When I think of Disqualify I think of cheating or photos that can get Drew and Langdon (the site owners) in trouble. Even then..personally..I have never even thought about disqualifying somebody.
I think of this site as a gallery with a weekly theme. to ask a fellow gallery exhibit to be removed..as an artist is abhorrent to my way of thinking..I cannot do so in good conscience and still consider myself an artist instead of a policeman..
Thats up to the site admins and others with the temperment for it.
But thats me :-D
* This message has been edited by the author on 9/2/2002 12:35:19 PM. |
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09/02/2002 12:39:44 PM · #35 |
Originally posted by cmcvety:
My question is, in the past, how many photos have been disqualified for not meeting the challenge topic? Also, what criteria is used to make this decision? is it a liberal standard?
Because of controversy over disqualifications in the past based on not meeting the challenge topic, there was a formal announcement a while ago that this would no longer be done. However, this change hasn't been made to the official rules. |
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09/02/2002 12:46:23 PM · #36 |
hokie-
I totally hear you. I guess my question for you would be this, if the challenge topic is cars one week and someone submits a photo that you think is truly amazing but it is a photo of a river what do you do? Suspend reality for a second here and assume for me that there is absolutely no feasible symbolic or other type of connection that the river has to cars. Purely in a vaccuum of the question posed, how would you judge that photo? |
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09/02/2002 12:51:51 PM · #37 |
Originally posted by cmcvety:
hokie-
I totally hear you. I guess my question for you would be this, if the challenge topic is cars one week and someone submits a photo that you think is truly amazing but it is a photo of a river what do you do? Suspend reality for a second here and assume for me that there is absolutely no feasible symbolic or other type of connection that the river has to cars. Purely in a vaccuum of the question posed, how would you judge that photo?
I think there is a fundamental difference here. It's easy to tell that a river is not a car. There's no way to really know if a shot was candid or not. In that type of situation I think it's best to give the artist the benefit of the doubt.
-Terry
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09/02/2002 12:52:02 PM · #38 |
| If I think a pic does not meet the challenge (in any way that I can conceive, being as open-minded as possible,) I score either a 1, 2 or 3 depending on pic quality. I also leave a comment about why I scored it so low. I also leave my name so people can email me a correction if useful. |
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09/02/2002 01:00:33 PM · #39 |
I totally hear you. I guess my question for you would be this, if the challenge topic is cars one week and
someone submits a photo that you think is truly amazing but it is a photo of a river what do you do? Suspend
reality for a second here and assume for me that there is absolutely no feasible symbolic or other type of
connection that the river has to cars. Purely in a vaccuum of the question posed, how would you judge that
photo?
Let's assume that you had a real nice Corvette and someone stole it and dumped it in a river. I guess that each time you crossed a river it would then make you think of a car, so their picture of the river might be justified. Lets just have fun!
Keep Shoot'n
Autool |
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09/02/2002 01:09:52 PM · #40 |
Originally posted by cmcvety:
hokie-
I totally hear you. I guess my question for you would be this, if the challenge topic is cars one week and someone submits a photo that you think is truly amazing but it is a photo of a river what do you do? Suspend reality for a second here and assume for me that there is absolutely no feasible symbolic or other type of connection that the river has to cars. Purely in a vaccuum of the question posed, how would you judge that photo?
I still do not disqualify.
Why? Because he failed to meet the challenge? Giving somebody a 4 (which is probably what I would do in this hypothetical perfect river shot for a car challenge) is a far cry from requesting him to be removed from competition. I vote about 50/50 as far as challenge topic and photo quality but I don't have hard lines drawn to judge by...Art doesn't work that way for me.
Somebody want to spot edit? Sure ..DQ them. That's a RULE violation.
Somebody want to show some sexually explicit shots? I guess you need to dump them to avoid the server owners from dropping this site.
But blatantly ignoring a challenge topic (and I have only seen a handful in my 2,650 photos I have viewed and scored) is not serious enough to Disqualify in my opinion.
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09/02/2002 01:23:33 PM · #41 |
Originally posted by lisae:
No alansfreed... we have this argument over and over again. To some people, the challenge topic is something to give them limits to work strictly within. To others it's a launching pad to inspire them and give them ideas, and they might actually push the boundaries a bit and experiment.
This may be the case, but if I were "inspired" to take shots of something that didn't meet the challenge, I'd expect that I'll be docked for it.
For example, I went to Niagara Falls in Canada this weekend, and I took a shot of the "Maid of the Mist" with a rainbow that happened to reflect in the mist of the falls: Maid of the Mist.
Aside from the fact that this wasn't taken during the appropriate time frame, let's say I really wanted to squeeze this into this week's challenge because I think it's cool. So I give it a name like "A Bunch of Fruity People on a Boat," and submit it. Even though I think it's a pretty cool shot, and I'm planning to blow it up & frame it, I would expect it to be voted extremely poorly.
To post an otherwise nice shot and try to weasel it into the challenge... then get poor votes... then whine about it, seems ridiculous to me. And it seems unfair to the people who have put forth a lot of thought into how to take a shot to meet the challenge.
The thought process here should be:
1. Learn topic of new challenge.
2. Think of possible images.
3. Shoot.
4. Submit.
Not:
1. Learn topic of new challenge.
2. Happen to take a good shot of something else.
3. Try to rationalize how it can meet challenge.
4. Submit.
* This message has been edited by the author on 9/2/2002 1:25:55 PM. |
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09/02/2002 01:24:27 PM · #42 |
| I agree. I think disqualifying is too harsh for a photo that just doesn't seem to meet the challenge topic. This topic (candid shots) is particularly difficult because it is so open for interpretation. I guess it just got me wondering what the point of the challenge topic is at all... |
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09/02/2002 01:38:59 PM · #43 |
alansfreed, that Niagra photo rules!
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09/02/2002 02:04:34 PM · #44 |
There can be no doubt that there are many valid points in this thread.
However...
Maybe, just maybe, we're forgetting why we take pictures, and that probably for most of us on this site,we do it because it is an outlet, a relaxation, a learning experience, a sharing and FUN??!! |
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09/02/2002 02:08:42 PM · #45 |
PLEASE DO NOT HIT THE DISQUALIFY LINK FOR PHOTOS YOU DO NOT FEEL MEET THE CHALLENGE! It was announced a while back that photos would no longer be disqualified for not meeting the challenge. There's simply too much grey area, and this challenge is a perfect example. Requests to disqualify a photo for not meeting the challenge will be ignored.
Whether a photo is appropriate for the challenge can and should be a factor in your voting, but it is not grounds for DQ. And yes, I'm aware the rules page needs to be updated with regard to this. It's in the works.
-Terry
* This message has been edited by the author on 9/2/2002 2:08:29 PM.
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09/02/2002 02:24:40 PM · #46 |
Love the photo, alansfreed. I think you are correct, you made a good point. As a matter of fact, I submitted a photo in pencils that did meet the challenge but I knew wouldn't score very high. But since I wanted to be a part of the challenge I submitted anyway. Now with a low score I wish i wouldn't have. And I probably won't do that again. My score now isn't doing to hot and I thought it was at least a 5, but you never know.
My son submitted a photo in pencils, Find The Pencil
If you read the comments
He got
7 useless comments
7 positive critiques
5 positive comments
Hopefully by the end of the week all of you will at least have some good comments on your photo.
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09/02/2002 03:31:07 PM · #47 |
Originally posted by conceptgraphics:
Candid: n., An unposed informal photograph.
Just stick to the challenge.
Unposed? My photo is unposed yet my current score is below a 3.
* This message has been edited by the author on 9/2/2002 3:30:02 PM. |
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09/02/2002 04:05:15 PM · #48 |
Unposed? My photo is unposed yet my current score is below a 3.
By the same token, purely meeting the challenge doesn't guarantee a high score, either. There's still the whole issue of technical merit.
That brings to mind the voting system of autool. I must say that I appreciate his efforts to not only vote and comment for every photo (at least I believe he does), but I like his system of breaking down how he comes to his conclusions based on several criteria. His opinions and hard work are to be commended!
On one hand I wish the system allowed everyone to vote this way, but on my other, more rational hand, I'm very glad it is the way it is. It already takes a couple hours to vote for all of the images, and I can only imagine how much time someone like autool and others must put into their voting.
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09/02/2002 05:25:13 PM · #49 |
Originally posted by lisae:
No alansfreed... we have this argument over and over again. To some people, the challenge topic is something to give them limits to work strictly within. To others it's a launching pad to inspire them and give them ideas, and they might actually push the boundaries a bit and experiment. The first group penalise the second group. The second group are the ones who get cranky about their score and have all the arguments. As to which group has the most fun... well... it's all a rich tapestry :)
Well said.
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09/02/2002 09:39:28 PM · #50 |
I haven't voted yet, but from a few quick looks I haven't found a single photo that didn't meet the challenge. But after reading this and a few other Forum threads, I'm seeing a very disturbing trend. When I first found this site (a short 6 weeks or so ago) my greatest impression was that the forums seemed to be friendly, good natured discussions that would some times become heated, but never mean spirited...
I'm afraid this has changed... I suggested near the top of this thread that I might need a break. After reading the rest of it, I'm definitely taking one. I'll stop by from time to time to see if things lighten up...
Till then, keep shooting and have fun :) |
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