Mumps - DPChallenge Forums

04/15/2006 08:46:38 PM · #1

OK, just getting this off my chest. If there weren't so many kooks out there blaming things like autism on vaccinations we wouldn't be seeing outbreaks of such diesease. For the love of Mike! Everybody with three weeks of medical education considers themselves an expert and anecdotal stories are taken as gospel truth.

Whew. I feel better.

pidge

Canon EOS-7D Mark II

04/15/2006 09:50:00 PM · #2

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Kooks and bad stories are why things like polio (I think) have yet to be eradicated in third world countries :(

I didn't realize mumps was making a comeback

CNN on Mumps epidemic in Midwest

04/15/2006 10:26:43 PM · #3

missinseattle

Nikon D200

Nikon AF-S DX NIKKOR 18-200mm f/3.5-5.6G ED VR II

04/26/2006 07:14:44 AM · #4

I'm in a mothers group and there are 3 of them that don't get vaccinations for their kids
Who has kids that are sick ALL The time? yep you got it. They are very open about their decision to no vaccinate and very opinionated about it too.
I for one have kept up to date with all of that since our daughter was born. Just seems like the common sense thing to do!

CEJ

Canon EOS-40D

Canon EF-S 18-200mm f/3.5-5.6 IS

04/26/2006 07:24:13 AM · #5

Well...vaccinations are all well and good but...I was vaccinated as a child for all diseases and I still got the mumps (one side only), chicken pox, measles and German measles. A lot of good the vaccinations did. I got this neat scar for nothing.

I did have both my kids vaccinated though and neither of them had any of these diseases.

Message edited by author 2006-04-26 07:25:22.

04/26/2006 07:42:13 AM · #6

My son was vaccinated with the MMR vaccine (Mumps Measles and Rubella) Within 24 hours he developed rheumatoid arthritis and peculiar rash. His hands were swollen like someone inflated them, his hands and feet went into contortions. He couldn't walk..he was virtually crippled. On my third visit to the doctor I broke down in tears - I was so scared as I had no idea what was happening. The Doctor did something that took my breath away: He started to cry and said that it was the vaccination he had given my son that caused the R.Arthritis and rash. He said he was sorry, really sorry. That the government paid them for each vaccination. The more vaccines they gave the more money they received. I cried and he cried!!! The next day he quit.
At a parents evening a year later, I told a parent what had happened to my son. She said the same had happened to her daughter and that if I went round all the mothers I would be shocked at how many had similar stories.

Tamron AF 28-80mm f/3.5-5.6 Aspherical for Nikon

04/26/2006 07:47:24 AM · #7

Plus, before you pin the blame on others

"Once a common childhood illness, mumps was virtually eradicated with widespread use of the measles, mumps and rubella (MMR) vaccine.

But the vaccine is effective in only about 90 percent of people, which could partly explain the recent outbreak, CDC Director Julie Gerberding said.

"Although this is a very good vaccine, it's not perfect," Gerberding said at a news conference. "

Something Unnatural
About Worsening
Mumps Epidemic?
From Patricia Doyle, PhD
dr_p_doyle@hotmail.com
4-21-6

Hello, Jeff - There is something unnatural about this outbreak. I am going to be looking even closer at it and will keep you updated.

Those becoming infected appear to be, well...most of them, vaccinated individuals - many of whom have even had booster shots. The virus (as I mentioned briefly last night,) has mutated away from that which the vaccines cover. Just how did this mutation take place and why is it not being discussed?

Evidently this so-called 'slight' mutation is rendering vaccine useless.

Message edited by author 2006-04-26 07:51:30.

vtruan

Nikon D5100

04/26/2006 09:23:39 AM · #8

I liked having the mumps, I got a week out of school when I was a kid, same with measles (all kinds) and chicken pox. What a bunch of wimpy kids we are bringing up. :) My kids were given shots....

cpanaioti

Canon EOS-40D

Canon EF 70-300mm f/4.5-5.6 DO IS USM

04/26/2006 10:42:20 AM · #9

Mumps boosters were included in school vaccinations until somewhere in the 1990's leaving a lot of people only receiving one mumps vaccination.
(at least this is how I understand it. I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong)

In Canada, there is discussion about bringing mumps booster vaccinations to University campuses.

Canon EF-S 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6 USM

04/26/2006 11:33:40 AM · #10

Originally posted by amber:

Naturally not having been there I don't know what happened to your son, but a few thoughts.

1) After searching the medical literature, I found one case report of RA possibly being linked after immunisation. I found nothing else.
2) With what your doctor said, it sounded like he was involved in a clinical trial which means it was either an experimental vaccine or a new company wanted to manufacture the vaccine others had already manufactured.
3) The human brain is great at putting together cause and effect. Too good, in fact. It is also possible that the situation was a true-true-unrelated phenomenon. a) He got the MMR - True b) He got RA - True c) the two were not related to each other.

Either your son was among a handful of people in the whole world who got RA from his MMR; or he received an experimental MMR vaccine which didn't make it to market; or two things happened closely together which were not related.

Did he make a good recovery? (Hopefully)

RayEthier

Canon EOS-5D Mark II

04/26/2006 11:39:46 AM · #11

Originally posted by vtruan:

I liked having the mumps, I got a week out of school when I was a kid, same with measles (all kinds) and chicken pox. What a bunch of wimpy kids we are bringing up. :) My kids were given shots....

I am quite happy for you that you got the mumps as a child and got the benefit of having a week off school... it must have been a blast. :0)

I on the other hand never got the mumps as a child (or any ot the other childhood diseases)... never got to enjoy the pleasures of staying home and enjoying some leisure time, and can assure you that I certainly would not want to get any of these wonderful diseases at this stage of my life.

Ray

Lord... we must have been poorer than I thought... couldn't even get the mumps and all......and they were free.....Sheeesh.

Message edited by author 2006-04-26 11:44:42.

Riponlady

Panasonic Lumix DMC-FZ35

Tamron AF 28-300mm f/3.5-6.3 XR Di LD Aspherical IF for Canon

04/26/2006 12:28:33 PM · #12

In find this a really difficult subject! My head says that the chance of a child suffering ill effects from jabs is very small ( although I do believe that some children to suffer from autism and other major complaints directly from having the vaccinations) but my heart knows that even the smallest chance of a perfectly healthy child being hurt by these jabs would stop me having my child vaccinated.

I chose not to have my children vaccinated against whooping cough, which was the only vaccination in addition to the polio/diptheria jabs available, when they were small. My daughter caught whooping cough quite badly but I was happy to nurse her through this and she did not suffer any long term problems from the disease. Both my children had chicken pox, mumps, german measles and measles.

There is now discussion about children as young as a few months having one major vaccine to cover a huge number of diseases in the near future. I cannot help but worry about the effects of putting this amount of vaccine into a small body at one go. Is the body able to cope with this? Are we giving our children so much protection against diseases that their immune system will not be developed sufficiently to be able to cope with other diseases and minor illnesses? Is this why asthma and allergies are on the increase? Why do we need to vaccinate against what used to be the common illnesses of childhood which millions of children managed to get and gain natural immunity against? When does it become OK to allow some children to suffer effects for the benefit of the many?

I don't know the answers - I only know the questions that make me so concerned that if my grandchildren ever come along ( please soon!!!!) and my children ask what should they do about vaccination, I would know how to answer.

Pauline

04/26/2006 01:04:01 PM · #13

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Originally posted by amber:
My son was vaccinated with the MMR vaccine (Mumps Measles and Rubella) Within 24 hours he developed rheumatoid arthritis and peculiar rash. His hands were swollen like someone inflated them, his hands and feet went into contortions. He couldn't walk..he was virtually crippled. On my third visit to the doctor I broke down in tears - I was so scared as I had no idea what was happening. The Doctor did something that took my breath away: He started to cry and said that it was the vaccination he had given my son that caused the R.Arthritis and rash. He said he was sorry, really sorry. That the government paid them for each vaccination. The more vaccines they gave the more money they received. I cried and he cried!!! The next day he quit.
At a parents evening a year later, I told a parent what had happened to my son. She said the same had happened to her daughter and that if I went round all the mothers I would be shocked at how many had similar stories.

Naturally not having been there I don't know what happened to your son, but a few thoughts.

1) After searching the medical literature, I found one case report of RA possibly being linked after immunisation. I found nothing else.
2) With what your doctor said, it sounded like he was involved in a clinical trial which means it was either an experimental vaccine or a new company wanted to manufacture the vaccine others had already manufactured.
3) The human brain is great at putting together cause and effect. Too good, in fact. It is also possible that the situation was a true-true-unrelated phenomenon. a) He got the MMR - True b) He got RA - True c) the two were not related to each other.

Either your son was among a handful of people in the whole world who got RA from his MMR; or he received an experimental MMR vaccine which didn't make it to market; or two things happened closely together which were not related.

Did he make a good recovery? (Hopefully)

I'm glad you questioned me as it is an important subject.
1) Mumps, as a child is not fatal.
2) Most Pharmaceutical companies sponser research and are hardly likely to allow negative results to be published that prejuidice their product.
3)One case of RA being reported? I did not report it to anyone but my doctor. I am an everyday person. Who else would I report it to? My Doctor will not report it, because the government PAYS him for each vaccination. He reports it and his funding gets cut.
4) My doctor was giving out the normal MMR - not experimental. The one with Formaldehyde. He knew the dangers - hence the crying and resignation when I confronted him.
5) The two- RA and Vaccination were related. I knew it and HE knew it HENCE the resignation.
And many others experienced the same thing, but did not report it to whom would they report it...WHO?? Because deference makes us think the experts know best. But ecconomic pressures mean they often forget who they swore to protect.
A little research will open eyes and scare the bejeepers out of you.

Message edited by author 2006-04-26 13:07:40.

04/26/2006 01:09:30 PM · #14

I'll give it a go at least giving my answers to your questions.

I cannot help but worry about the effects of putting this amount of vaccine into a small body at one go. Is the body able to cope with this?

Good question. Right now, I believe the most diseases one vaccine is designed to treat is 3. They are working on a 5 disease vaccine. The amount of protein these vaccines actually have is quite small and it appears that the body is quite able to sort them out. Look at it this way. The young child sees dozens if not hundreds of proteins come through the gut every day. It is amazingly able to sort through them, decide which is beneficial (food) and which is harmful (bacteria and viruses). With that view, an injection of 3 or 5 purified proteins seems like child's play.

Are we giving our children so much protection against diseases that their immune system will not be developed sufficiently to be able to cope with other diseases and minor illnesses?

This I can tell you with great certainty is nothing to worry about. (As an allergist, I am also a board certified immunologist) The immune system sees the protein as just another infection and treats it as such. There is no reason presenting such a protein will "weaken" the rest of the immune system. It just doesn't work like that.

Is this why asthma and allergies are on the increase?

This is a good question and the answer is "maybe". The hygiene hypothesis has been used to try to explain the rise of allergy and asthma. In brief, the idea is that we do not face as many infections as we did in the past and our immune systems sorta look for something else to do and come up with allergy and asthma. However, the majority of the hypothesis right now looks more at our cleaner environment and does not blame vaccination in large part. Kids who live in rural environements who are vaccinated at the same rates as kids who live in cities develop less allergy and asthma despite their vaccination.

Why do we need to vaccinate against what used to be the common illnesses of childhood which millions of children managed to get and gain natural immunity against?

For the very reason you worried about giving your kids vaccine. Many of these diseases carry rare, but very severe consequences. Mumps, for example, can come with encephalitis which can lead to brain damage and even death. It can also lead to pancreatitis, orchiditis (inflammation of the testes) which rarely leads to sterility, and hearing loss. Most kids get it and get over it, but if there was a chance of preventing the possibility (like you said) of serious or fatal complications, wouldn't it be worth it?

When does it become OK to allow some children to suffer effects for the benefit of the many?

Another great question. One way this came up was with the two forms of polio vaccine. The oral vaccine was a live virus (in a weakened form). It turns out that about one in three million times the virus mutates back to the regular form and the child comes down with polio. (It does appear that in the majority of these cases the child has an undiagnosed immunodeficiency). Once the chances of getting polio from the vaccine were higher than the chances of getting polio naturally, the oral vaccine was stopped and an injected protein vaccine replaced it. There is no chance of this vaccine causing polio. The original was used because a) it wasn't a shot and b) it led to herd immunity (ie. the weakened virus was shed in the stool and the kids naturally passed it around to nonvaccinated kids and protected them as well).

Hope that helps some.

04/26/2006 01:18:00 PM · #15

Originally posted by amber:

I'm glad you questioned me as it is an important subject.
1) Mumps, as a child is not fatal.

Mumps can be quite fatal. See my post to riponlady. It can also cause other complications like deafness, sterility, brain damage.

Originally posted by amber:

2) Most Pharmaceutical companies sponser research and are hardly likely to allow negative results to be published that prejuidice their product.

good point. Now if a pharma company wants to publish in a major journal, they have to register the study BEFORE it starts. That way the journal knows if the company is sweeping negative results under the carpet. But I agree, pharma has a conflicted interest in keeping negative results quiet.

Originally posted by amber:

3)One case of RA being reported? I did not report it to anyone but my doctor. I am an everyday person. Who else would I report it to? My Doctor will not report it, because the government PAYS him for each vaccination. He reports it and his funding gets cut.

Case reports come from doctors who want to share rare complications or unusual conditions with the rest of the medical community. I'm not saying your doctor provided a case report (he likely didn't), but if RA did have an association with MMR others would have noticed it and more would have reported it. I could only find one report of a possible connection.

Originally posted by amber:

4) My doctor was giving out the normal MMR - not experimental. The one with Formaldehyde. He knew the dangers - hence the crying and resignation when I confronted him.

So here, there may be a difference in countries. I don't get any more money to give vaccines than if I didn't other than just the compensation for the vaccine (which is small). I doubt he KNEW the relation of MMR to RA since nobody else seemed to know it going back to 1966. You aren't going to find this in any textbook or journal, so how could he know?

Originally posted by amber:

5) The two- RA and Vaccination were related. I knew it and HE knew it HENCE the resignation.

I did a dance yesterday and it rained today. I'm afraid I can't accept a certainty of feeling as proof.

Message edited by author 2006-04-26 13:19:38.

04/26/2006 01:18:51 PM · #16

Originally posted by Riponlady:

I don't know the answers - I only know the questions that make me so concerned that if my grandchildren ever come along ( please soon!!!!) and my children ask what should they do about vaccination, I would know how to answer.

Pauline

Exactly right...NO mother would deny her child a vaccine because she was a 'KOOK'. A mother, or grandmother wants the best for the child...some people make it sound like it is fashionable not to vaccinate. Like buying a Gucchi bag. For parents it's often a life and death situation. I went against ALL my beliefs and instincts and had my child vaccinated. When the school called me and told me he could not walk or hold a pencil within 24 hours...how guilty do you think I felt. Especially when the doctor TOLD me the vaccination had caused it..I was so mad at myself for giving in. As Riponlady says: I don't know the answers - I only know the questions. Such is the dilemma of most parents.

04/26/2006 01:23:27 PM · #17

I'm usually quite sedate on this site, but I will announce that I will reply to each and every post encouraging kids not to be vaccinated. It is an emotional topic, but it is luancy not to get your children vaccinated.

04/26/2006 01:31:11 PM · #18

1)can you tell us what ingrdients/chemicals go into the vaccine?

2)"The two- RA and Vaccination were related. I knew it and HE knew it HENCE the resignation.

I did a dance yesterday and it rained today. I'm afraid I can't accept a certainty of feeling as proof."

He TOLD me. He RESIGNED as a result. He told me my son's condition was caused BY the vaccination. He CRIED for godsake, he Knew. Was he delerious? Mad? It's hardly on a parr with you dancing and it raining. And quite frankly (and no offence) I don't reallly care whether you accept ' a certainty of feeling as proof'. I KNOW, the Doctor KNOWS, and resingned as a result...in the real world, not in cyberspace. Why is it so hard to accept? I make no money from what I experienced. The Pharma companies on the other hand......

04/26/2006 01:32:37 PM · #19

You know amber, possibly you are throwing me off with the term "rheumatoid" arthritis. I did find some literature talking about a temporary arthritis associated with MMR (the rubella component to be exact). Rheumatoid arthritis is a quite different disease which can be lifelong and involves autoantibodies which attack the lining of the joints.

Temporary arthritis seems to occur in 7 out of 10 adult women who are vaccinated, although it seems to be much lower in children.

Maybe tell me more about your sons symptoms. We could be talking about completely different things.

Message edited by author 2006-04-26 13:33:42.

04/26/2006 01:41:00 PM · #20

Not trying to throw you off - that's what the doctor told me RA. And if you had seen my healthy child, unable to walk; with knee joints the size of a large baseball; with hands swollen and contorted like the elephant man. I had to carry him like a baby. He had a purple leopard pattern rash all over his body. And NOBODY would tell me what it was, until I marched past the receptionist demanding answers. And then to find out later that may others had experienced the same pain ad trauma immediately after vaccination...you don't have to be a genius.

04/26/2006 01:44:02 PM · #21

But did it resolve? Did he get better? The doctor could have very well used the term incorrectly.

I'm sure either way it was quite an experience and I don't want to discount it at all. But assuming he made a recovery, it seems the story is a bit different as a testamonial to not getting vaccines.

As mentioned above, all these diseases we prevent with vaccines can have serious side effects including death or permanent disability.

04/26/2006 01:44:05 PM · #22

'Temporary' or not...you don't know at the time whether it is temporary.

04/26/2006 01:46:22 PM · #23

The doctor used the term incorrectly? Then what the hell was he doing giving vaccinations? Or diagnoses?
And to be honest he was the best doctor we ever had, he had time for you, listened, really cared.

Message edited by author 2006-04-26 13:48:01.

04/26/2006 01:47:03 PM · #24

Originally posted by amber:

'Temporary' or not...you don't know at the time whether it is temporary.

I 100% agree. It was probably a very tough week for everybody.