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04/20/2006 04:37:23 AM · #51 |
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
It bears mentioning that even IF we started enforcing such a mandatory % of comments made, there's no guarantee the comments would spread where they are most needed. I'd expect, actually, that this would probably result in even MORE comments made on the top entries. |
Unless the thumbnail page for casting votes are removed. |
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04/20/2006 05:30:23 AM · #52 |
Originally posted by Guyver:
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
It bears mentioning that even IF we started enforcing such a mandatory % of comments made, there's no guarantee the comments would spread where they are most needed. I'd expect, actually, that this would probably result in even MORE comments made on the top entries. |
Unless the thumbnail page for casting votes are removed. |
... and what of those who don't or can't vote?
Voting and commenting are two very different things -- and, IMO, should not be tied to each other. A vote is a ranking of the image against whatever it is one ranks it against. A comment is something else entirely -- it is a response to the communication the image contains. The images that receive the most comments are the images that communicate the best. Granted there are the images, such as the brown Robert mentioned, that get a lot of comments similar to what someone might say to someone that said something unintelligable. The images that don't have anything to say, will continue to not be responded to.
What the OP seems to be wanting (based on how I understood his post) is more critiques. These are not comments, as I view them, as they are not directed at the image but the photographer. As such, I feel they are best left until after the challenge is over -- when the photographer is known and the critique can be properly directed at the individual.
David
Message edited by author 2006-04-20 05:39:33.
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04/20/2006 07:11:39 AM · #53 |
Originally posted by idnic:
Sorry - but that's BS! The general population here are here to have fun. Ribbon winners get more comments because their shots are better. Period! |
I don't know about that. The ones I like best rarely wind up in the top three. I think Candid was the first one where one of my favorites was in the top three. I know this one has been thrown around and denied, but I think there is something to the "popularity contest" accusation. Not because of my scores, but because of other excellent photographs that don't score much higher (or at all) than mine. After awhile you start to recognize other people's work, and can consciously or unconsciously vote according to how much you like that person. |
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04/20/2006 07:43:53 AM · #54 |
Originally posted by ragamuffingirl:
Originally posted by idnic:
Sorry - but that's BS! The general population here are here to have fun. Ribbon winners get more comments because their shots are better. Period! |
I don't know about that. The ones I like best rarely wind up in the top three. I think Candid was the first one where one of my favorites was in the top three. I know this one has been thrown around and denied, but I think there is something to the "popularity contest" accusation. Not because of my scores, but because of other excellent photographs that don't score much higher (or at all) than mine. After awhile you start to recognize other people's work, and can consciously or unconsciously vote according to how much you like that person. |
But you can also argue that each most shooters are seeking the "path" to the voters' hearts, and that these "recognizable" photographers became so BECAUSE their images were/are well-received, so they continue to work in that vein or genre for the most part. In other words, it's not that they score well because they are "popular" in the sense of "known by the voters", but rather that their popularity is a result of touching a chord the voters respond to, if you catch my drift?
I donno about this whole "popularity" thing and its purported skewing of the voting results. I think I'm a pretty popular guy in DPC all-in-all, and 187 or so comments on my recent ribbon image seem to bear that out, but Lord knows it hasn't "bought" me a hell of a lot of prizes. I've entered over 144 challenges, my average score is in the 5.4 range, I have a grand total of 7 top-10's including 2 ribbons... Surely, if popularity were being rewarded I'd be doing better than that?
So I don't pay it much heed. These multiple-ribbon-winners, these people that rake 'em in, are just very, very good at shooting for challenges, is how I look at it. And more power to 'em!
R.
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04/20/2006 07:56:35 AM · #55 |
Wow. I can't believe this thread is still moving along - well actually, yes I can.
So much emotion in this debate. Why is this such a big deal? Yes, it's fun to read some comments and if you strike a chord with the viewers/voters you most likely will get at least a few. I would much rather have only a few comments given freely than to receive many that are being forced on me because the viewer/voter has it mandated to do so.
If you want to make a comment - great, do so. If not, well that's ok too. Free will to make a choice is the best option of all.
I find it funny on this very liberal site that there are some actually considering mandating something on other members.
If you really want good feedback on one of your images, post it in a forum thread and ask for it. You'll most likely get it, although it may not be always what you want to hear. ;^) |
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04/20/2006 02:13:46 PM · #56 |
The thread has kindly been unlocked by SC lets keep a civil debate on this subject and see if we can come to a common ground. I think there is a comment problem but like the most of you I at a lost for a solution. That's what we need to be dwelling on, a solution, not why something will not work.
-SDW
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04/20/2006 02:32:51 PM · #57 |
I don't think it's because people don't want to comment. I think it's a time issue and number of entries. My personal take on it is the increase in the number of entries every week for the challenges. There is just more and more people entering these challenges and if 50% or more of 300+ entries are mediocre or worse, I'm not going to spend time I don't have commenting on 150-175+ images per challenge per week. I try to vote only on the challenges I enter. Usually the member challenge and an open. I just don't have time to sit and type my thoughts on 200+ photos. I barely have the extra time to vote.
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04/20/2006 02:36:35 PM · #58 |
NO! In a world where choices are increasingly vanishing, must we do so here as well?
Post a pic in the forums if you want more comments. Let's not drag all of us into being forced to comment when voting just because we want more comments.
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04/20/2006 02:43:16 PM · #59 |
Southern,
I see where your going with the comment requirement however I think it would lead to much fewer comments as people would rather not waste their time if there's a possibility of not making the 20%.
Also, by removing all comments if someone doesn't make the 20% is actually punishing those who did recieve comments and not the commenter.
Just some things to think about. |
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04/20/2006 03:11:16 PM · #60 |
| well, personally, for a current challenge I'm voting on, I voted on all the pictures and left a lot of comments that I thought would be helpful, but then my bf who's been on this site forever cautioned me that some people get really upset over comments even when you put them as positively as you can... so I went through and deleted almost all of them. also, I think that people would see me as a hipocrit because I am not some super awesome photographer, even though I still have an artist's eye and could point out where I feel improvement could be done from an observer's standpoint. |
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04/20/2006 04:33:57 PM · #61 |
One problem I find with commenting on the low scoring pictures is the fear of "insulting" someone.
Take any of the typical "snapshots" that invariably get entered into a challenge and I could quite easily put "focus is off" or "rule of thirds would make it better" or "subject is uninteresting" and these would all be my opinion and therefore valid and they would also be offering constructive criticism; but I think it's rude to be that blunt and curt.
I like to try and expand on the negative and give the photo some praise and the photographer some encouragement
i.e "this is a good effort, you managed to capture the mood well, but next time try using natural light instead of using the flash".
And there is the problem: TIME.
Now, if someone really wanted some idea of why their picture wasnât scoring well and didnât mind me saying âthis has been done a thousand times beforeâ or whatever, then I could probably comment on a hundred pictures a week.
But I fear the PMâs coming back to abuse me.
I know they can now be reported, but itâs still not worth the hassle.
Or is it?
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04/20/2006 04:38:07 PM · #62 |
Originally posted by dsmeth:
My personal take on it is the increase in the number of entries every week for the challenges. There is just more and more people entering these challenges and if 50% or more of 300+ entries are mediocre or worse, I'm not going to spend time I don't have commenting on 150-175+ images per challenge per week. I try to vote only on the challenges I enter. Usually the member challenge and an open. I just don't have time to sit and type my thoughts on 200+ photos. I barely have the extra time to vote. |
This is brought up a lot and I agree that is probably at the heart of the problem however that raises other issues like voting. If you don't have time to post a few words on at least the ones you rank poorly then chances you're not spending any time truly evaluating each photo and if that's the case I'm so disappointed by that. When I first registered I thought this being a photography community it was one where the challenges would be taken a bit more seriously when one votes but apparently that's not the case at all.
If you're truly voting based on a set critera you should be able to leave plenty of comments. If however you are just summarily voting on each one just to get "throught it" then why are you voting in the first place?
For example, if you weigh 3 things in your voting (say creativity, technicals & wow factor) how hard is it to leave a post saying "nice photo but the creativy was lacking, IMO" and move on? If you scored "creativity" low then it's not time consuming at all to say that. It's only time consuming if you aren't looking at the photo for more than 1 second. Granted if you're new to photography then you might not know what to look for and just vote based on what you like which is fine but there is NO excuse for the mass of photographers here that DO KNOW what they are looking for yet don't communicate that to the newbies and that's a shame. I say lets include a checkbox that states I want "constructive criticism" when submitting for an entry. Sure most will probably check that but at least it gives DPC the opportunity to say you asked for it so don't complain if people are harsh about your photo. Those that are sensitive or have had bad experiences in the past with comments can choose to not check that box.
Anyway, just my thoughts. There are just too many excuses I hear about why people don't leave comments which just don't fly, IMO.
Btw dsmeth, none of this is directed at you.
Message edited by author 2006-04-20 16:47:38. |
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04/20/2006 04:44:21 PM · #63 |
Oh God, not another one.
If comments are required when voting, it has to be only nice comments. No RUDE comments please. LOL..
Message edited by author 2006-04-20 16:44:44. |
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04/20/2006 04:44:22 PM · #64 |
Originally posted by UNCLEBRO:
One problem I find with commenting on the low scoring pictures is the fear of "insulting" someone.
Take any of the typical "snapshots" that invariably get entered into a challenge and I could quite easily put "focus is off" or "rule of thirds would make it better" or "subject is uninteresting" and these would all be my opinion and therefore valid and they would also be offering constructive criticism; but I think it's rude to be that blunt and curt.
I like to try and expand on the negative and give the photo some praise and the photographer some encouragement
i.e "this is a good effort, you managed to capture the mood well, but next time try using natural light instead of using the flash".
And there is the problem: TIME.
Now, if someone really wanted some idea of why their picture wasnât scoring well and didnât mind me saying âthis has been done a thousand times beforeâ or whatever, then I could probably comment on a hundred pictures a week.
But I fear the PMâs coming back to abuse me.
I know they can now be reported, but itâs still not worth the hassle.
Or is it? |
Have you actually had anybody harrass you over a comment? Of course there have been cases of this but it seems like if we hear about one suddenly people think it's an actual problem and not just some isolated case.
As for time being a problem how much time does it take to say, "I liked the photo however a, b and c just didn't work for me." It will at least convey to the photographer what areas "didn't work". If they want to know more maybe they'll PM you for clarification, which you can either ignore or not. I just don't see how this is a time consuming problem at all. Nobody is asking you to comment on 100% of the photos but rather just the ones that you score poorly which is required by the rules. I guess it would be time consuming if you are dishing out tons of 1s, 2s and 3s.
Message edited by author 2006-04-20 16:44:55. |
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04/20/2006 04:51:59 PM · #65 |
Originally posted by shaileshivyas:
Oh God, not another one.
If comments are required when voting, it has to be only nice comments. No RUDE comments please. LOL.. |
Are you directing that at me? I'm not in favor of requiring comments to vote beyond what is already stated in the rules (i.e. low scoring images). It would be nice to have an option that tells people that you want constructive criticism. For me that would be a godsent since I'd immediately know what works and what doesn't in these challenges. Instead I have to enter challenge after challenge trying to figure out what little thing did I do wrong this time that the masses just didn't like. It's very frustrating. |
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04/20/2006 04:57:50 PM · #66 |
Originally posted by yanko:
Originally posted by shaileshivyas:
Oh God, not another one.
If comments are required when voting, it has to be only nice comments. No RUDE comments please. LOL.. |
Are you directing that at me? |
No, I am not. Just trying to make some fun. My comment was with the reference to this thread --> Why some people are Rude? |
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04/21/2006 02:56:15 AM · #67 |
Originally posted by yanko:
I say lets include a checkbox that states I want "constructive criticism" when submitting for an entry.
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There is such a box in existence already. It's right before a person hits the submit button for a challenge.
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04/21/2006 03:07:04 AM · #68 |
Originally posted by dsmeth:
Originally posted by yanko:
I say lets include a checkbox that states I want "constructive criticism" when submitting for an entry.
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There is such a box in existence already. It's right before a person hits the submit button for a challenge. |
If you are referring to the box "I would like an indepth critique on my submission" that's just to tell people in the critique club that you want a critique. Oh and good luck getting one btw. I have yet to get one with any of my entries. What I was talking about was adding a check box to inform all voters on the voting page that you want constructive criticism as in "I have thick skin, fire away at my image". That would at least solicit comments from those that feel you don't want to hear what they have to say because they think you can't handle brut honesty. That's a feature we don't have currently.
Message edited by author 2006-04-21 03:12:36. |
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04/21/2006 04:31:24 AM · #69 |
Originally posted by yanko:
Originally posted by dsmeth:
Originally posted by yanko:
I say lets include a checkbox that states I want "constructive criticism" when submitting for an entry.
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There is such a box in existence already. It's right before a person hits the submit button for a challenge. |
If you are referring to the box "I would like an indepth critique on my submission" that's just to tell people in the critique club that you want a critique. Oh and good luck getting one btw. I have yet to get one with any of my entries. What I was talking about was adding a check box to inform all voters on the voting page that you want constructive criticism as in "I have thick skin, fire away at my image". That would at least solicit comments from those that feel you don't want to hear what they have to say because they think you can't handle brut honesty. That's a feature we don't have currently. |
I'd go with thart option I think tje more mediocre the entry the more the comment is needed
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04/21/2006 04:43:10 AM · #70 |
I was going to say no one who votes under 4 should be able to do so without leaving a valid comment...but then I realised a) I'm not thick skinned enough and b) my comment tally received would treble.
Message edited by author 2006-04-21 04:43:37. |
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04/21/2006 07:13:55 AM · #71 |
What a great discussion, with many good points made by lots of people.
Just a thought, I participate at another photography site where you are required to maintain a 1:10 vote/comment ratio for every contest that you enter, along with a preset number of votes no matter how many entries there are (not a % like here). At first, this seemed to be working well...then an actual comment requirement was introduced so that if you voted 5 or less you had to leave a comment. Then people started voting 6 or higher to make the minimum voting requirement and avoid leaving comments. Another side effect was that people were leaving comments like "nice shot" on images that they voted a 2 or 3.
To make a long story short, eventually, PM wars broke out over comments and whether or not they were rude and then lots of people just stopped voting the minimum to avoid the comment requirement and nasty PM's over any comment that wasn't praise. Most recently, there was a campaign to require comments on votes of 7 or less, and vote inflation is a real problem. Yes, this really happened.
The whole point of the above is this: it's my belief, given my experience elsewhere, that requiring comments in any form or fashion will lead to vote inflation and/or less voting. I'd be against any mandatory commenting requirement.
With that said, GeneralE made an excellent point about taking the time to thank those commenters that took the time to leave one. This kind of positive reinforcement is surely better than a "rule" to motivate behavior. In that same vein, let's stop attacking comments in the forums, or joining the OP with choruses of "Oh, yes, that is so rude - who did it - let's pick apart their average vote and other comments, too...and they obviously had no idea what they were talking about because they haven't entered any challenges/entered only one challenge/stink as a photographer blah blah blah..." I, for one, have drastically reduced commenting because of this. It just takes the fun out of commenting when you see other people getting attacked for it. |
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04/21/2006 10:37:00 AM · #72 |
Ok ,i have tryed hard in the last few days to vote in the current Something old II challenge ! for now i have just managed this for now:
You have rated 214 of 400 images (54%) in this challenge.
You have commented on 52 of 400 images (13%) in this challenge.
phew its hard work ,but all keep going and see on how many i can manage to comment ,i must say it gets to ya after while so i try and do it in parts :)
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04/22/2006 10:10:36 PM · #73 |
I am new to the site and have yet to enter a chanllenge. As many have said, some of the comments are very helpful, but many are of the type "good shot" "wow" love it.
As a sugestion, instead of just rating the photo 1-9, have 3/4/5 rating boxes, eg Impact, Composition, Technical, Editing.
Your overall rating would be the average of these or some weighted average.
In this way you could see which 'section' of your photo requires work. |
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