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04/13/2006 12:13:27 PM · #1 |
Hey....is there any way to search to see how many and who the members are that have at least one "7" score for a final score in a challenge?
...For that matter it could be any score I guess...8, 9, 10...
Thanks, |
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04/13/2006 12:22:59 PM · #2 |
As far as i'm aware theres not a list of photogs, but there's always highest rated images. They're all above 7.0
edit: and theres 1000 of them!
Message edited by author 2006-04-13 12:23:31.
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04/13/2006 12:34:15 PM · #3 |
Originally posted by kirsty_mcn:
As far as i'm aware theres not a list of photogs, but there's always highest rated images. They're all above 7.0
edit: and theres 1000 of them! |
Though it usually says 1,000 it actually displays about 1,400. Though that is most of the 7s it is not all of them and they are listed from highest to lowest score in order.
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04/13/2006 12:48:44 PM · #4 |
As of right now there have been 95,681 images submitted to challenges.
The very first three DPC challenges totaled only 74 images. In those early challenges four pictures scored over 8, including the highest and third highest rated images ever at DPC. That group also includes the only image to score over 8 and not win the blue.
You think they understood how to score better than we do now?
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04/13/2006 01:41:09 PM · #5 |
Originally posted by stdavidson:
As of right now there have been 95,681 images submitted to challenges.
The very first three DPC challenges totaled only 74 images. In those early challenges four pictures scored over 8, including the highest and third highest rated images ever at DPC. That group also includes the only image to score over 8 and not win the blue.
You think they understood how to score better than we do now? |
I think they were much more generous with their scoring when they were a small "band of brothers", is what I think. :-)
R.
Edit to add; as a case in point, here's the red ribbon in "Table Shot", the second-ever challenge at DPC. Average score 7.1+... It's a cute shot, but I shudder to think what sort of score it would receive now... 5.1 maybe? If that?
R.
Message edited by author 2006-04-13 13:46:11.
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04/13/2006 01:55:30 PM · #6 |
I think you're right as a whole Robert. More entries will mean more low votes and they were a tighter community back then. Something does make me wonder why, since the overall quality of images are much better now, that the winners scores are substantially lower than they were then. Of course you'll see one every now and again that is up there but not too often.
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04/13/2006 02:01:02 PM · #7 |
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
I think they were much more generous with their scoring when they were a small "band of brothers", is what I think. :-)
Edit to add; as a case in point, here's the red ribbon in "Table Shot", the second-ever challenge at DPC. Average score 7.1+... It's a cute shot, but I shudder to think what sort of score it would receive now... 5.1 maybe? If that?
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Scoring guidlines define 10 as "good". Are the images at DPC that have scored 7s and 8s "good"? According to site guidlines they apear to fall short of that. How is that explained?
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04/13/2006 02:09:29 PM · #8 |
Originally posted by dudephil:
Something does make me wonder why, since the overall quality of images are much better now, that the winners scores are substantially lower than they were then. |
We've become jaded. The images are better, so the expectations are higher. As the voters become more accustomed to seeing "good" images, it becomes harder and harder to stand out from photos we've already seen. Setzler's Liberty and Justice was groundbreaking for this site at the time, but it's been done to death by now and it would be nearly impossible to score 8+ with that technique in a current challenge. |
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04/13/2006 02:24:56 PM · #9 |
Originally posted by scalvert:
We've become jaded. The images are better, so the expectations are higher. As the voters become more accustomed to seeing "good" images, it becomes harder and harder to stand out from photos we've already seen. Setzler's Liberty and Justice was groundbreaking for this site at the time, but it's been done to death by now and it would be nearly impossible to score 8+ with that technique in a current challenge. |
Tell me about it. I have a 7+ scoring photo that didn't even get into the top ten. My 'water drop' attempt scored a whopping 5.582.
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04/13/2006 02:30:54 PM · #10 |
Originally posted by scalvert:
Originally posted by dudephil:
Something does make me wonder why, since the overall quality of images are much better now, that the winners scores are substantially lower than they were then. |
We've become jaded. The images are better, so the expectations are higher. |
Personally I like to make full use of the 10-point voting scale, so I reserve 1 and 2 for really terrible images, and use 9 and 10 for only the very VERY best images. I usually only end up giving out 5-10 nines and 0-2 tens each challenge, but I feel this better expresses my feelings about the entries in the challenge.
When I give out a 10, I am saying "Wow, this HAS to be a winner." |
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04/13/2006 02:34:21 PM · #11 |
Originally posted by micknewton:
My 'water drop' attempt scored a whopping 5.582. |
Incidentally, I am very surprised at that. I think it is very nicely done and deserves a higher score. |
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04/13/2006 02:41:55 PM · #12 |
The difference between "early" DPC and its present scoring shows that voters subconsciously tend to vote "on a curve".
Message edited by author 2006-04-13 14:43:31.
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04/13/2006 03:16:59 PM · #13 |
Originally posted by scalvert:
Originally posted by dudephil:
Something does make me wonder why, since the overall quality of images are much better now, that the winners scores are substantially lower than they were then. |
We've become jaded. The images are better, so the expectations are higher. ... |
Though we have become jaded and have higher expectations, particularly for certain techniques, the site guideline remains the same. A 10 is "good".
Mick (Micknewton) points out that he had an image score 7.154 that did not even make the top 10. It "only" finished 12th out of 310 entries. It is rare for a 7.154 rated image to finish out of the ribbons, let alone out of the top 10.
2.846 points below Mick's score is 4.308. At DPC 4.3 is a below average score by site guidlines and there are few voters that would argue differently.
Yet Mick's image is a full 2.846 points below what the site guidline defines as "good". Given that, shouldn't we be surprised it placed so high with a score so low?
Just what does it take to be "good"?
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04/13/2006 03:19:23 PM · #14 |
Originally posted by stdavidson:
... Mick's image is a full 2.846 points below what the site guidline defines as "good". Given that, shouldn't we be surprised it placed so high with a score so low?
Just what does it take to be "good"? |
The "good" and "bad" aren't definitions, they are directions. They are just there to show which way the scale points. "Better" and "worse" would do just as well.
Robt.
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04/13/2006 03:24:54 PM · #15 |
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
The "good" and "bad" aren't definitions, they are directions. They are just there to show which way the scale points. "Better" and "worse" would do just as well. |
They are just guidelines, but that still does not answer the question. ;)
Are you suggesting that "good" should be re-interpreted to be "perfection" to the degree that not one image out of 95,000 submitted by over 57,000 photographers can come within even 1.3 points of it?
Message edited by author 2006-04-13 15:27:03.
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04/13/2006 03:32:14 PM · #16 |
Originally posted by stdavidson:
Are you suggesting that "good" should be re-interpreted to be "perfection" to the degree that not one image out of 95,000 submitted by over 57,000 photographers can come within even 1.3 points of it? |
Nope, but I would offer the thought that since "judging" artistic work is entirely a subjective undertaking, it's not even remotely possible that an image could garner straight 10's. It just can't happen. And the bigger the voter-base, the harder it is to rise above the 5.5 "median" score. It's just the way things work.
Robt.
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04/13/2006 03:44:43 PM · #17 |
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
Originally posted by stdavidson:
Are you suggesting that "good" should be re-interpreted to be "perfection" to the degree that not one image out of 95,000 submitted by over 57,000 photographers can come within even 1.3 points of it? |
Nope, but I would offer the thought that since "judging" artistic work is entirely a subjective undertaking, it's not even remotely possible that an image could garner straight 10's. It just can't happen. And the bigger the voter-base, the harder it is to rise above the 5.5 "median" score. It's just the way things work. |
No doubt judging artistic work is highly subjective and you will get varying fringe opinions from a diverse group.
Asssume for a moment, as you suggest, that regardless of the entries in any challenge that scores generally will cluster around the mathematical median between 1 and 10. If so, then why does a 4.3 score appear to match site guidlines by just about anyone's definition, yet a 7.1 score does not? Doesn't that seem paradoxical?
Message edited by author 2006-04-13 15:45:09.
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04/13/2006 03:56:49 PM · #18 |
Originally posted by stdavidson:
Just what does it take to be "good"? |
neat image. ;) |
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04/13/2006 03:58:12 PM · #19 |
Originally posted by Alecia:
Originally posted by stdavidson:
Just what does it take to be "good"? |
neat image. ;) |
Now that is logic hard to dispute. LOL! LOL!
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04/13/2006 07:17:22 PM · #20 |
Originally posted by skylen:
Originally posted by micknewton:
My 'water drop' attempt scored a whopping 5.582. |
Incidentally, I am very surprised at that. I think it is very nicely done and deserves a higher score. |
Thanks Colin! Your comment is much appreciated.
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04/13/2006 08:18:30 PM · #21 |
Originally posted by stdavidson:
As of right now there have been 95,681 images submitted to challenges.
The very first three DPC challenges totaled only 74 images. In those early challenges four pictures scored over 8, including the highest and third highest rated images ever at DPC. That group also includes the only image to score over 8 and not win the blue.
You think they understood how to score better than we do now? |
I may be wrong about this because my knowledge is not from personal experience but rather from hearsay picked up in these forums, but I believe that the challenge voting in the beginning was not anonymous. My very rough guess is that non-anonymous votes average about two points higher than annymous votes. I think that accounts for a great part of difference between the scores then and now. Perhaps someone who was here at the beginning can fill us in on this point.
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04/13/2006 09:10:44 PM · #22 |
Originally posted by coolhar:
Originally posted by stdavidson:
As of right now there have been 95,681 images submitted to challenges.
The very first three DPC challenges totaled only 74 images. In those early challenges four pictures scored over 8, including the highest and third highest rated images ever at DPC. That group also includes the only image to score over 8 and not win the blue.
You think they understood how to score better than we do now? |
I may be wrong about this because my knowledge is not from personal experience but rather from hearsay picked up in these forums, but I believe that the challenge voting in the beginning was not anonymous. My very rough guess is that non-anonymous votes average about two points higher than annymous votes. I think that accounts for a great part of difference between the scores then and now. Perhaps someone who was here at the beginning can fill us in on this point. |
I wasn't here at the very beginning (but I got here as soon as I could with Challenge #8, curves) and at that point voting was anon. To the best of my understanding, it was always like that.
In the beginning comments weren't anonymous at all. |
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04/13/2006 10:07:35 PM · #23 |
Originally posted by stdavidson:
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
The "good" and "bad" aren't definitions, they are directions. They are just there to show which way the scale points. "Better" and "worse" would do just as well. |
They are just guidelines, but that still does not answer the question. ;)
Are you suggesting that "good" should be re-interpreted to be "perfection" to the degree that not one image out of 95,000 submitted by over 57,000 photographers can come within even 1.3 points of it? |
Steve,
I teach courses in research methods. DPC uses what is called a "ten-point Likert scale" for voting. There are two approaches among researchers in using Likert scales. One approach is to standardize what each step on the scale means. To do this, researchers define each of the scale values and then train the raters on a sample set of stimuli. Raters who don't rate the samples correctly are rejected and don't get to rate the real stimuli. This is a lot of work but it does make it possible to compare the ratings given this year with those given in previous years because the raters have all been standardized with the same sample of stimuli.
The other approach among researchers is to give the scale to the raters with no instructions other than to indicate what is the top and bottom on the scale. This is what DPC does: we are given a ten-point scale and are told that 1 is the lowest or worst rating we can give and that 10 is the highest or best rating we can give.
When researchers do this, they find that there is a lot of variation among the raters. Some will figure that with ten categories, they ought to put ten percent of the pictures in each category. If there are 250 pictures in a challenge, they will give 25 ones, 25 twos, . . . and 25 tens. Others will figure that a five means an OK image and since all of the images are at least OK, they won't give any ratings below five.
The amazing thing is that this kind of variation among the voters doesn't really matter when you take the mean. EVERY voter is giving higher votes to the images they think are better. It is their relative vote that influences the rank order of the photos--and that is what matters on DPC.
A common mistake among DPC members is to adopt a set of standards for their own votes and then to think that others ought to vote the same way. This really cannot happen in an organization like DPC.
--DanW
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04/13/2006 10:10:11 PM · #24 |
Originally posted by stdavidson:
Asssume for a moment, as you suggest, that regardless of the entries in any challenge that scores generally will cluster around the mathematical median between 1 and 10. If so, then why does a 4.3 score appear to match site guidlines by just about anyone's definition, yet a 7.1 score does not? Doesn't that seem paradoxical? |
I'm not sure I understand what you're asking; please clarify or rephrase?
Robt.
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04/13/2006 10:30:57 PM · #25 |
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
Originally posted by stdavidson:
Asssume for a moment, as you suggest, that regardless of the entries in any challenge that scores generally will cluster around the mathematical median between 1 and 10. If so, then why does a 4.3 score appear to match site guidlines by just about anyone's definition, yet a 7.1 score does not? Doesn't that seem paradoxical? |
I'm not sure I understand what you're asking; please clarify or rephrase?
Robt. |
Steve's really deep, aint he?  |
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