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03/29/2006 12:13:55 PM · #1 |
What are your thoughts on the issue of illegals in your country? Should they receive emergency health care at local hospitals? Should their children be educated for free in the public school system? Should they be expected to speak the language of the country where they have gained access? Should they have the right to protest en masse and carry the flags of their original country while demanding acceptance into their new homeland? Should they be given preferential treatment on admission/citizenship and cut in front of others waiting in line?
I have purposely not made this a US thread and am interested in your thoughts for your country.
Lastly, if illegals do the work that citizens won't, then does that mean that once they become citizens, then they won't do that work either? And if there is work to be done, then why don't those receiveing free government assistence, be assigned those tasks as a precursor to their reciept of a check...given they have the mental and physical ability to do so?
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03/29/2006 12:38:34 PM · #2 |
Emergency health care - yes. Then send them home, and bill their country for the care.
Free education - no. My children don't get a free education, i pay considerable taxes for it. And no special classes in languages other than the native tongue, unless the classes will be taught equally to all children, giving native speakers the benefit of a bilingual education.
Language - only matters for work or education, or when attempting to obtain services. Education has been covered. If they are working, they need to speak the native language. However, if they're illegal, they shouldn't be working. When obtaining services, it certainly would be in the best interest of the consumer to speak the native language. If a business provides multi-lingual support, it should be left up to the discretion of the owner whether or not to do so. In their free time, folks can speak whatever they want - english, french, pig latin, feringi. Whatever
I think it's kind of silly to carry a homeland flag while demanding the rights of another country. Wanting to have your cake and eat it, too.
I'm not a fan of quotas based on gender, sexual orientation, skin color, native language, or anything else. In a perfect world, opportunities are given to the most deserving, best prepared, most qualified. However, in a perfect world, you don't have individual biases against all these things, which bring the need for protecting the rights. In a perfect world, you also don't have poverty, hunger, class differences, illiteracy...
Message edited by author 2006-03-29 12:41:09. |
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03/29/2006 12:51:11 PM · #3 |
I have my own thoughts on this issue.
But, what I find interesting is that people that bang the drum for illegals are those that always say "But the illegal residence take the jobs that the Americans don't want."
I give you this thought, why does it have to be only illegal aliens that have to have these jobs. Why can't there be a program for the homeless, and jobless to do the tasks that illegal aliens are doing?
It's one thing for being an American, but it is another to be a survivor.
I am no expert, but I would have to think that there are some people, of legal residence, in America that would kill to have a job, no matter what, just to put food in their belly.
Just a thought.
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03/29/2006 01:21:48 PM · #4 |
I don't even know where to start on this. I was born in Houston,Texas, and lived there until 1992 when we moved to Pasadena (borders Houston). It got to the point where, no matter where I went, all I heard was Spanish. Occasionally there would be other English speaking families, but many times in restaurants and retail stores I would not hear English anywhere. It was like I woke up one morning and someone had moved my house to Mexico. Bank forms, PTA meetings, church services were bilingual. In the elementary school my son attended the Kindergarten work displayed in the halls was in Spanish. The work was to identify shapes--circle, triangle, etc. It was not even bilingual. Police were instructed to not worry about legal status in traffic stops. Culturally, the Texas I was born in is gone.
I do not mind immigration--done legally. I do expect immigrants to respect our culture and learn our language. Illegals should not have free services (emergency care for life and death might be an exception, but I like the idea of billing the home country), education, welfare or any other tax supported program. Children born in the US to illegals should not automatically be citizens. We (the US) should not be President Fox's solution.
My grandparents came here from Austria in the early 1900's. They learned English and adopted our customs as much as they could. They "melted", which unfortunately does not happen so much anymore.
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03/31/2006 09:13:08 AM · #5 |
The US economy would be in a lot worse shape than it is now if all those illegal immigrants weren't working at low-paying jobs that most "legal" americans wouldn't touch with a ten foot pole.
Like it or not, they fuel many of the basics things that people take for granted: they help build your homes, they pick your fruit and vegetables, they sell you burgers and coffee, etc. |
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03/31/2006 10:11:56 AM · #6 |
Originally posted by Beagleboy:
The US economy would be in a lot worse shape than it is now if all those illegal immigrants weren't working at low-paying jobs that most "legal" americans wouldn't touch with a ten foot pole.
Like it or not, they fuel many of the basics things that people take for granted: they help build your homes, they pick your fruit and vegetables, they sell you burgers and coffee, etc. |
So you support illegal immigration into Canada due to the labor provided by them?
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03/31/2006 10:25:10 AM · #7 |
Originally posted by Beagleboy:
The US economy would be in a lot worse shape than it is now if all those illegal immigrants weren't working at low-paying jobs that most "legal" americans wouldn't touch with a ten foot pole.
Like it or not, they fuel many of the basics things that people take for granted: they help build your homes, they pick your fruit and vegetables, they sell you burgers and coffee, etc. |
Actually, if all those employers followed the law, hired US citizens at legal wages, followed government regulations and paid taxes, I think things would improve in our economy. Yeah, prices might go up slightly on some things but more people would have jobs and more tax revenue would be raised.
I don't blame the immigrants for coming here. I blame the people that hire them. Plain and simple, there is no excuse for breaking the law. The companys and people that hire illegals at low wages, without paying taxes, and ignore federal labor standards (such as safety standards and workman's comp) need to be punished harshly. They are the problem. If no one hired them, they would not cross the border looking for work.
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03/31/2006 10:50:32 AM · #8 |
Originally posted by Flash:
Originally posted by Beagleboy:
The US economy would be in a lot worse shape than it is now if all those illegal immigrants weren't working at low-paying jobs that most "legal" Americans wouldn't touch with a ten foot pole.
Like it or not, they fuel many of the basics things that people take for granted: they help build your homes, they pick your fruit and vegetables, they sell you burgers and coffee, etc. |
So you support illegal immigration into Canada due to the labor provided by them? |
Where did I say that I supportanything in my previous statement? I was just stating that mass employment of illegal migrants is part of your society and to a lesser extent, the same can be said about Canada. Other countries have the same issues. I imagine that some countries in Europe and other parts of the world have an even tougher time with this issue than the US or Canada.
I do understand that it's a hell of a problem. Can't deport them all: costs too much money to enforce and could adversely affect the economy. Can't grant them amnesty: the US (and Canada) would be flooded with even more illegal immigrants. Not an easy challenge to tackle, for sure.
Message edited by author 2006-03-31 11:15:42. |
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03/31/2006 10:51:25 AM · #9 |
Originally posted by LoudDog:
Originally posted by Beagleboy:
The US economy would be in a lot worse shape than it is now if all those illegal immigrants weren't working at low-paying jobs that most "legal" americans wouldn't touch with a ten foot pole.
Like it or not, they fuel many of the basics things that people take for granted: they help build your homes, they pick your fruit and vegetables, they sell you burgers and coffee, etc. |
Actually, if all those employers followed the law, hired US citizens at legal wages, followed government regulations and paid taxes, I think things would improve in our economy. Yeah, prices might go up slightly on some things but more people would have jobs and more tax revenue would be raised.
I don't blame the immigrants for coming here. I blame the people that hire them. Plain and simple, there is no excuse for breaking the law. The companys and people that hire illegals at low wages, without paying taxes, and ignore federal labor standards (such as safety standards and workman's comp) need to be punished harshly. They are the problem. If no one hired them, they would not cross the border looking for work. |
Excellent point. Thanks for sharing this. |
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03/31/2006 11:07:51 AM · #10 |
Originally posted by Beagleboy:
Originally posted by Flash:
Originally posted by Beagleboy:
The US economy would be in a lot worse shape than it is now if all those illegal immigrants weren't working at low-paying jobs that most "legal" Americans wouldn't touch with a ten foot pole.
Like it or not, they fuel many of the basics things that people take for granted: they help build your homes, they pick your fruit and vegetables, they sell you burgers and coffee, etc. |
So you support illegal immigration into Canada due to the labor provided by them? |
Where did I say that I supportanything in my previous statement? I was just stating that mass employment of illegal migrants is part of your society and to a lesser extent, the same can be said about Canada. |
You did not state it specifically. That is why I asked the question for clarification. Your original post The US economy would be in a lot worse shape than it is now if all those illegal immigrants weren't working at low-paying jobs that most "legal" americans wouldn't touch with a ten foot pole.
Like it or not, they fuel many of the basics things that people take for granted: they help build your homes, they pick your fruit and vegetables, they sell you burgers and coffee, etc. read to me like a point in favor of the illegals. Similar to other arguments presented on their behalf. The US needs them, therefore...
If that was your position, then I was curious on how you felt about those same illegals in your country and If we need them, then why don't you? If all countries need them, then why not just allow them to be legal, but just as a sub class which gets to be abused and taken advantage of by employers? If the lower prices are what allows the other citizens to justify the abuse of "those" people, then as long as the "normal" citizens get lower prices, what does it matter who is labeled as the abused class? If it does matter that a "class" is being abused, then why use the argument for illegals based on wages/jobs?
However since you have clarified that you do not support illegals in any country, then you have answered my question.
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03/31/2006 11:18:34 AM · #11 |
Thanks for elaborating.
Excellent point on the illegal immigrants forming a class or cast that get exploited by the rest of society. This issue seems to be skirted when the issue is discussed. Most views are centred on the middle- or upper-class who get to benefit from their presence (lower cost services and products). |
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03/31/2006 11:19:55 AM · #12 |
Mark my words, it's an issue at the fore front now so they can pass legislation to do LESS ABOUT IT, and get MORE MONEY.
It's always been a crime to enter the country illegally. So do they really expect us to beleive that the situation warrants something more? Heck they aren't doing anything about it now, which by it's own nature is less than what is/will be proposes - and therefore easier to do. But they aren't doing anything about it now.
There are an estimated 11+million illegals in the US right now. In California they passed legislation to make it impossible for law enforcement (local, state, or otherwise) to ask a person for their visas - even if arrested / question for an offense!
They say, 'we can round up the 11 million and send them back, it would create havok on the economy, they represent about 5% of the work force - companies would go out of business.' I say screw the businesses anyway - it's been FEDERAL LABOR LAW to require proof of citizen ship or permit to work in this country for DECADES! They wanted to break the law to begin with; if you or I break the law we go to jail - the businesses should count themselves lucky.
Playing havok on the economy
A) It's going to anyway - because if we allow the immigrants a pass now (worker permit) they will now be above the radar, paying taxes, and now will be subjected, wholeheartedly to labor laws - including.... minimum wage which is more than they are making now.
B) If we deport them it shouldn't be too bad. These businesses will need to adjust to the changes if they want to stay in the black. Sending them back would remove them totally from the economy include the expenses side, not just the income side. And I for one would rather go through a recession that on the otherside is better off for the average american, not because stocks crashed due to hyper-valuation (which is why we ALWAYS go through a recession / depression)
Before we make new laws we enforce the existing laws. The ONLY reason governments make new laws is to make it easier on themselves - to do less. (If it's a law, then thought doesn't have to be put into an event/situation and therefore less time involved and less money-means more money in fewer pockets - example: at one time guns were totally legal 100% anyone could own a gun - murder however has been a crime on the books since the beginning of time. The only reason gun legislation appeared is to reduce the investment in 'real' crimes (robbery, murder, etc) but crimes will still happen, and laws against crimes will still need to be enforced. it's just to try to make it easier on the the enforcement process. And think about this, if it works, since it's easier, does law enforcement budget/taxes become less and therefore a savings to you and I? Nope... it won't.)
Edit: BTW Those of you who think the migrant workers are doing jobs that americans wouldn't do - you'd better ask the 5% unemployed in this country if that's a job they wouldn't do, period. That's just rouse to cover the issues. Actually it's more accurate to say americans won't do that job for peanuts. Why? because the COST OF LIVING is more than that job provides STANDARD OF LIVING. If that job now becomes a higher paying job, which it will regardless of what the legislators do - because now it's in the forefront - you will find many americans wanting that job - because now they can LIVE as america politicians promise us!
-Rick
Message edited by author 2006-03-31 11:24:15. |
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03/31/2006 11:32:11 AM · #13 |
| I found it interesting that a very recent Pew poll showed that the feeling about illegals and a worker program was directly inverse to the amount of illegals in the particular community of the person being asked. In other words, the more illegals a person lived around the less they felt they were a problem. |
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03/31/2006 11:37:08 AM · #14 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
I found it interesting that a very recent Pew poll showed that the feeling about illegals and a worker program was directly inverse to the amount of illegals in the particular community of the person being asked. In other words, the more illegals a person lived around the less they felt they were a problem. |
Got an online or publicized reference? I'd like to read that. |
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03/31/2006 11:41:44 AM · #15 |
Originally posted by CarpeNoctem:
Got an online or publicized reference? I'd like to read that. |
Pew Research Study
The bottom line is America's feelings are all over the map and not even consistent. 70% of respondents said that illegals should not use up government services, yet 70% also said their children should be able to attend school. Basically 1/3rd say we should ship them home, 1/3rd say we should give them amnesty and 1/3rd favor something inbetween like a worker program. |
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03/31/2006 11:59:19 AM · #16 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
I found it interesting that a very recent Pew poll showed that the feeling about illegals and a worker program was directly inverse to the amount of illegals in the particular community of the person being asked. In other words, the more illegals a person lived around the less they felt they were a problem. |
Given your reference it looks to me like it's not inverse to the illegal populations but directly related to it. Communities in the more illegal areas view it more so as a 'very big problem' than the communities that don't have a large per capital illegal population.
Maybe I'm looking it at it wrong.
-Rick
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03/31/2006 01:37:01 PM · #17 |
Solution:
$10,000 fine per count per day for hiring an illegal.
You pay 3 to landscape your yard, $30,000 fine. ABC construction hires 5 for 3 days to frame a house, $150,000 fine. You hire one to clean your house, $10,000. You pick up a bus load of 100 to pick oranges, $1 million fine.
Might make people/businesses think twice about hiring them, and the money could be put into the costs of sending them back.
Any legitimate arguments against this?
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03/31/2006 04:27:21 PM · #18 |
Originally posted by LoudDog:
Any legitimate arguments against this? |
How are you going to know who is illegal and who is not?
I agree a large part of the issue is employment in things where people/companies know exactly what is going on. |
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03/31/2006 04:52:18 PM · #19 |
When the economy is in cruise control, like it pretty much is right now, there are many jobs that U.S. citizens will not do. If it weren't for the illegals (or similar "caste") how are these jobs going to get done?
Some years back when many states were implimenting welfare reform a suggestion was made in one state (Wisconsin, I think) that able-bodied recipients could be doing community service jobs such as park maintenance etc. There was an uproar! The folks that would have to go out and work in exchange for the check argued that the work would be demeaning. Give me a break! So the lowest caste does this work (if the work gets done at all).
I'm not in favor of illegal aliens, nor am I willing to pay for their health care or education. The problem is more complex than rounding them up and shipping them back.
Bill
Message edited by author 2006-03-31 16:54:23. |
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03/31/2006 05:06:54 PM · #20 |
Illegals should be arrested and deported immediately, no matter what their age, gender, ethnicity, healthstatus or education.
how ever, immigrants, refugees and other people that enter the country legally and wants to stay should be sent to school to learn the local language, if they can't manage within 6 months then they should be deported. if they can't pass the SAT's or equivliant highschool graduation tests within 2 years they should be deported, and they should pass physicals on their entry in the country and every 6 months until they get citicenship.
no country should have to accept people that don't want to learn the language, can't pass highschool tests and isn't healthy enough to work for a living.
the health part is for the general public, there are always some charity cases were a seriously injured person is accepted as a civillian to be able to get the medical attention needed.
I am not a racist or anything like that.. I even think some Icelanders should be deported from Iceland due to bad misuse of the Icelandic language ;)
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03/31/2006 05:10:48 PM · #21 |
Originally posted by DanSig:
Illegals should be arrested and deported immediately, no matter what their age, gender, ethnicity, healthstatus or education.
how ever, immigrants, refugees and other people that enter the country legally and wants to stay should be sent to school to learn the local language, if they can't manage within 6 months then they should be deported. if they can't pass the SAT's or equivliant highschool graduation tests within 2 years they should be deported, and they should pass physicals on their entry in the country and every 6 months until they get citicenship.
no country should have to accept people that don't want to learn the language, can't pass highschool tests and isn't healthy enough to work for a living.
the health part is for the general public, there are always some charity cases were a seriously injured person is accepted as a civillian to be able to get the medical attention needed.
I am not a racist or anything like that.. I even think some Icelanders should be deported from Iceland due to bad misuse of the Icelandic language ;) |
So I'm guessing you view the old "give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses" poem on the Statue of Liberty as a steaming pile of crap? I'm asking as a general question, not that any poem on the Statue of Liberty pertains to Iceland...
Message edited by author 2006-03-31 17:18:21. |
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03/31/2006 05:17:12 PM · #22 |
Originally posted by CarpeNoctem:
Given your reference it looks to me like it's not inverse to the illegal populations but directly related to it. Communities in the more illegal areas view it more so as a 'very big problem' than the communities that don't have a large per capital illegal population.
Maybe I'm looking it at it wrong.
-Rick |
Look at the box highlight labelled "More familiar, less troubling" For the statement "Immigrants today are a burden because they take jobs and housing" only 47% agreed in areas of high immigrant population and 65% agreed in a areas of low immigrant population. "Immigrants strengthen the US with their hard work and talents" had 47% agree in high immigrant areas and 27% agree in low immigrant areas. |
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03/31/2006 05:22:03 PM · #23 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
So I'm guessing you view the old "give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses" poem on the Statue of Liberty as a steaming pile of crap? |
in 1870 it might have ment something, but now when the USA is one of the poorest countries in the world you really cant afford to take them in anymore...
the latest news say there are more than 30.000.000 poor people in the USA, that is 30 millions..
in Ethiopia there are less than 10.000.000 poor people that do not have their own cattle or farm.
so YES it's a steaming pile of crap ;)
and the states isn't really a place poor people wants to go to... it's much easier to be poor in your own country where you can at least get social benefits ;)
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03/31/2006 05:32:31 PM · #24 |
It's interesting to me that different countries exist. How people have divided up the earth into all these countries of different sizes for whatever reasons. A statement of humanity, I guess. Without it, "Illegals" wouldn't exist.
The two tribes merged on Survivor-Panama, in last night's episode.
Something to ponder.
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03/31/2006 06:38:48 PM · #25 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
So I\'m guessing you view the old \"give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses\" poem on the Statue of Liberty as a steaming pile of crap? I\'m asking as a general question, not that any poem on the Statue of Liberty pertains to Iceland... |
Immigration was never open ended. America has always had stipulations to it. Our ancestor didn\'t want criminals, ever. They didn\'t want people unwilling to work, and They\'ve always had limits on the numbers each year, total numbers and numbers from indivual countries.
As a matter of fact, 4 years before the Statue of Liberty was errected in 1886, Congress enacted restrictions on immigration to exclude, \"paupers, ex-convicts, mental defectives and Chinese.\"
The immigration act of 1965 relaxed immigration for many reasons, most notably in this discussion, to favor immigrants with desired job skills and ending the longstanding preference for Western Europeans. It also, increased the total number of immigrants from 297,000 to 850,000. That\'s about 8.5 million legal in a decade.
This isn\'t about stopping immigration, its about the stopping the border jumpers. The ones that for one reason or another feel themselves more deserving of \'something\' than an immigrant going through the process. INS estimates the number of illegal immigrants entering the US at more than 275,000 per year.
During the economic boom of the 1990s the number of illegal immigrants doubled to hit ~8.7 million according to the census bureau. Add that to the 8.5 million legals during the same time and you have effectively increased the population by 6 percent, not counting births. Half of those, being illegal and should be under the social umbrella are, and it places a double strain on everything from welfare, medical, education, etc.
Like it or not, border jumpers put a serious burden on society. Giving them a pass on it will only promote more. One of the proposals is this Temporary Worker Permit - it\'s amnesty and such is asking for more border jumpers. We already allow citizens of other countries to work in the US. It\'s already in place. Heck, you are allowed to work here and send all you earnings back to your home country. But there is a channel you must go through.
Remember that prior to 9/11 Bush was commited to prividing amnesty to millions of Mexican workers in the U.S. illegally. It seems he is still commited to that.
Any immigration reformation will do nothing about the illegal border jumpers already here, and it will do nothing about preventing new border jumpers from entering in the future, unless they decide to enforce the current laws on the books.
I am ALL for immigration: I am less inclined to jump on board with allowing work permits and such. This idea of \'doing the job that Americans won\'t do\' is hog wash.
Sure we\'ll take your tired, your poor and huddle masses with the desire to be free. But if you have no intention on being free, and thus providing something to THIS society, or no intention of going through the checks and balances for what ever reason , or you are here because you want you \'land back for mother Mexico\' then it\'s back across the river for you. NO SOUP FOR YOU.
-Rick |
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