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03/01/2003 01:41:51 PM · #26 |
| i agree with you sonja, there is help, but how does that explain the sheer number of homeless in america? and i really don't know how much there is out there for the millions of people in our country right now. especially during bad economic times. even in good times it's hard to get people off the streets. |
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03/02/2003 12:39:58 AM · #27 |
Originally posted by karmat:
That said, if you are ever travelling I-40 through Western NC, adn you take exit 37, just between Canton and Candler, you will most likely see some "homeless" people. Having seen them many times, over a period of YEARS, you start to figure out they are running a racket. Sometimes they can bring in 2 or 3 hundred dollars A DAY during tourist season. These are substantiated facts.
karmat |
Hi karmat,
I agree that is a pretty sorry exploitation of the sympathy of others. I disagree that this is a representation of the nature of homelessness in America or in the world. I think there are plenty of genuinely hopeless (despairing?) people out there that aren't in the homeless "gig" to get money. This isn't to say they're without hope; some, most, never stop trying their damndest to get back on their feet. But for many it will take years, and some, a lifetime.
And, sonifo, just because people get out and make livable lives for themselves in our society doesn't mean everyone can. It's like saying that anyone can make as much money in our society as Bill Gates: well, sure...but we ain't, and we're not going to.
I know that it can really be troubling to see these "homeless" actors abusing human sympathy. But, as someone said earlier in this post, that's not most of them, or even a substantial group of them. Extend your generosity past that false front and you'll find it's much better received.
Martin
Message edited by author 2003-03-02 00:58:08. |
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03/02/2003 01:02:48 AM · #28 |
Originally posted by lisae:
The largest portion of the homeless population at any particular time are completely invisible to us. They're not out on the streets begging. They're in shelters, doing their best to survive, feed their families, and get work. |
I think this is the very essence of what is being discussed. The folks you see panhandling are not a true representation of the homeless. The true homeless are hidden -- either by shame or by choice. There is help for them, and sadly, some just cannot or will not break the cycle.
Will not, I say??? Before you jump on me and say that no one chooses to live in that situation, I will say you are only partially right. I am thinking right now of a student I had one time who was extremely bright, and wanted to go to law school. This would have been a wonderful path for her, as she could argue the bark off the tree -- she was that strong and tenacious. Her family consisted of druggies, drug dealers, alchoholics and prostitutes, and she used to rail daily about how she wouldn't be like that, she was getting out, etc. etc. etc. As her teacher, we tried to give her every tool available to break that cycle. And she tried, I think, to the best of her ability at the time. She spent her senior year living out of her car, but still graduated.
She graduated 3 or 4 years ago. Where is she now?? I have no idea. After graduation, she picked her drug habit back up and the last I heard was living somewhere in Florida. She had the help, and she did not use it. I think this is the situation Sonifo is referring to. She had a path to choose, an easy familiar one, or one that was more difficult. Instead of taking the road less travelled, she choose the path of least resistance. It was her choice. She may have been born in a bad situation, and that may have been what was taught to her, but she had been given the tools and some of the resources she needed to break out. It would have been tough, but it was possible. Reminds me of a butterfly getting out of a cocoon. If we cut it for them, their wings don't strengthen, and they die. They have to struggle to face the world. We can't solve everyone's problem by giving them a subsidy check, or handing a fiver to the bum on our way to work. They really do have to want it and decide that it is worth fighting for.
Archiral, lhall was not initially bashing your youth. I am only 32, and I can promise you at 23 my outlooks about the world were a lot different than now. At that age, I was ready to take hell on with a water pistol, come what may, I was going to do it, by gosh. As I got older, that attitude was tempered some, and though I still have the same desires, ideals, and dreams, I know now that there are different ways to go about it. I guess you could say instead of a water pistol, I am going to use a super soaker! And for what it is worth, when I was your age, I thought 32 was way old, and I reacted exactly like you in similar conversations, so though I may be old and decrepit (sp?), and you think I am the epitome of pessimism, please know that I do remember what it was like to be in my early 20's.
I guess you could say I went from being an optimist to a optipessimest -- I would really like things to change, and I will do what I can, but in the big picture, I am only one, and a fairly insignificant one outside of my sphere.
War veterans -- a bit of an aside here. I do blame a lot of the distress of Viet vets on the sentiment that was rampant here in this country at the time of the war. (Ok, I didn't experience it first hand, but I have talked with those who have). Please remember, whether or not you support the possibly (very possibly) impending war, or not, please do not take it out on the young soldiers (or even the old ones). Let's not have a second generation of beat up veterans.
Malokata, There are those that are truly homeless and aren't in it to get money, I agree. But, increasingly, people are figuring out that it is an easy way to get money. I also think if you read the first part of my post again (I assume you did, but the last part of yours makes it sound like I don't help), I do help those in dire straits frequently, both personally and corporately (I support our shelter). Like I said, I help them all and let God sort them out. Panhandling has never stopped me from helping, and it won't, but to paint the picture that panhandlers are the minority is wrong, I think.
I really must go to bed now.
Message edited by author 2003-03-02 01:14:31.
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03/02/2003 01:15:55 AM · #29 |
karmat,
Didn't mean to imply that you weren't helping, I did read your entire post. I was actually just trying to say "Don't get discouraged."
Points taken. I was mostly just disagreeing generally with the implications (though, mostly, not yours) that homelessness is the result of people being apathetic, deciding to live that way, and not working hard enough to get out.
Thanks for being a teacher who cares about that sort of thing,
Martin |
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03/02/2003 01:59:06 AM · #30 |
Originally posted by karmat:
Will not, I say??? Before you jump on me and say that no one chooses to live in that situation, I will say you are only partially right. I am thinking right now of a student I had one time who was extremely bright, and wanted to go to law school. This would have been a wonderful path for her, as she could argue the bark off the tree -- she was that strong and tenacious. Her family consisted of druggies, drug dealers, alchoholics and prostitutes, and she used to rail daily about how she wouldn't be like that, she was getting out, etc. etc. etc. As her teacher, we tried to give her every tool available to break that cycle. And she tried, I think, to the best of her ability at the time. She spent her senior year living out of her car, but still graduated.
She graduated 3 or 4 years ago. Where is she now?? I have no idea. After graduation, she picked her drug habit back up and the last I heard was living somewhere in Florida. She had the help, and she did not use it. I think this is the situation Sonifo is referring to. She had a path to choose, an easy familiar one, or one that was more difficult. Instead of taking the road less travelled, she choose the path of least resistance. It was her choice. She may have been born in a bad situation, and that may have been what was taught to her, but she had been given the tools and some of the resources she needed to break out. It would have been tough, but it was possible. Reminds me of a butterfly getting out of a cocoon. If we cut it for them, their wings don't strengthen, and they die. They have to struggle to face the world. We can't solve everyone's problem by giving them a subsidy check, or handing a fiver to the bum on our way to work. They really do have to want it and decide that it is worth fighting for. |
I understand that this is a very common belief in western society. People think that everything is open to you if you're willing to work for it, or in other words that we live in a meritocracy. However, that assumes that a) everyone has the same mental/emotional/physical tools at their disposal, and b) there are no poverty traps built into the economy.
My first point is that your story only convinces me more that poverty is a cycle, and if you are born into it, your chances of dragging yourself out of it are slim. People manage to, but if they don't it shouldn't be held against them. Asking someone who is born into poverty or an abusive family, or who has had to deal with a childhood of drug addiction, to just "catch up" is like asking someone who had all the breaks to run a marathon, and then blaming them when they fail. People should never be given just one chance and then written off, they need to be given every possible chance until they make it.
Unfortunately though, someone like the girl you describe will often waste their first chance through a lack of belief in themselves, then be penalised and have an even harder battle to get to the second chance. She might have a criminal record now for possessing or dealing drugs. Imagine how hard it will be now for her to drag herself out of the mire. People get into a downward spiral and as time goes on it gets harder and harder to get off it. That doesn't mean they made a choice, it may be more accurate to say that at some point they made an error of judgement and couldn't reverse it.
I'm lucky. After I graduated from Uni I completely lost my way for a couple of years. I had no ambitions, and hardly even the motivation to drag myself out of bed every day. But I had a partner who was devoted to me and supported me financially until we sorted out that I had a medical problem that was affecting both my physical and mental health. Anyone who has never experienced clinical depression cannot identify with how harmful it is. You don't care enough about your own life to fight for anything.
My second point is that even for people who work and work and work, poverty traps exist. They need external help to get out of them. There are people out there in an economic hamster wheel, working 2 jobs and still not being able to afford a home for their family. They are called the "working poor", and they are very common in the US. More and more of them are appearing in my country too. These are people who can't get a better job without training, but can't take time off the work they have to go to school, and they can't take a cut in their pay because they have a family to support. Government assistance programs turn out to be just enough to keep them going, but not enough to help them improve their circumstances, so they get stuck. Then... all it takes is one hefty dose of bad luck and they can go off the rails.
These people exist, and more and more they are penalised because society perceives all of the poor and homeless as undeserving of help. It really doesn't matter to me if SOME people get a handout or manage to swindle money out of generous souls when they don't need it, as long as people who DO need that help are getting it. We can deal with the thieves and con artists in other ways. |
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03/02/2003 03:09:18 AM · #31 |
It's so hard to not be able to afford anything. My husband works and works and works. If my parents and his father didn't sometimes send us a bit of extra cash, I think we'd be homeless by now. Especially when the bank suddenly debited us 500 dollars for a check we deposited a month previously, and suddenly they sent it back to us claiming it was not a good check. It turned out that it was sent back just because the worker who was supposed to just look up the router number for the bank was too lazy to do it. Believe it or not, that nearly rendered us homeless. We were suddenly 350 dollars in debt, with rent coming up and nothing to pay it with.
It's crazy how it's so easy to suddenly be in debt, just when we thought we got our shit together. You know? I can imagine that this is how people become homeless, just cause of a lazy worker! I can imagine why a lot of people would be dissilussioned by things that happen to them. I mean, it's so easy to take things personally, and let's be honest; a lot of agencies these days are more interested in being able to screw you over/make as much money out of you as they can. |
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03/02/2003 12:54:35 PM · #32 |
In the US the minimum wage is $5.75. If you are a single person working full time you will make about $11,900/year. The Federal poverty guideline for a single person is around $9,900. So if you work full time and have a child you will still be officially living in poverty.
And there is no allowance for regional differences. It is estimated in the San Francisco area that the cost of living is such that it takes nearly $20,000/year for one person. So even a person without kids would have to work two full-time jobs just to not live in poverty.
It does not seem right to me that we can continue to exalt people who "earn" over a $billion/year, and exonerate those who steal billions more, and then blame people for failing to bootstrap themselves out of poverty. Especially when the billionaires are exporting even the minimum wage jobs to Maylasia and Mexico where they can have their goodies assembled for a couple of dollars/DAY.
I'm sorry, but these (US policies) seem like most un-christian attitudes, actions and policies. Until we stop glorifying the accumulation of wealth and praise those who help others I'm afraid USA'ns will continue to be perceived by much of the world as greedy hypocrites. |
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03/02/2003 01:00:39 PM · #33 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
In the US the minimum wage is $5.75. If you are a single person working full time you will make about $11,900/year. The Federal poverty guideline for a single person is around $9,900. So if you work full time and have a child you will still be officially living in poverty.
And there is no allowance for regional differences. It is estimated in the San Francisco area that the cost of living is such that it takes nearly $20,000/year for one person. So even a person without kids would have to work two full-time jobs just to not live in poverty.
It does not seem right to me that we can continue to exalt people who "earn" over a $billion/year, and exonerate those who steal billions more, and then blame people for failing to bootstrap themselves out of poverty. Especially when the billionaires are exporting even the minimum wage jobs to Maylasia and Mexico where they can have their goodies assembled for a couple of dollars/DAY.
I'm sorry, but these (US policies) seem like most un-christian attitudes, actions and policies. Until we stop glorifying the accumulation of wealth and praise those who help others I'm afraid USA'ns will continue to be perceived by much of the world as greedy hypocrites. |
i agree with what you are saying but how is this possible in a capitalist society? also by policies do you mean the welfare system? i will agree that the welfare system is messed up, but it's better than nothing. |
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03/02/2003 01:16:31 PM · #34 |
| It is not possible in a purely capitialist society. That is why I consider the claim that the US can uphold christian values while espousing unregulated capitalism constitutes the rankest hypocrisy. To me, the two values system are almost completely antithetical. |
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03/02/2003 01:33:30 PM · #35 |
| how is america different from most european countries in the same sense |
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03/02/2003 01:44:55 PM · #36 |
Originally posted by achiral:
how is america different from most european countries in the same sense |
In general, Europeans seem to realize that it costs money to provide government services. USA'ns want something for nothing -- we are currently planning to spend billions on war while simultaneoulsly cutting taxes (mostly for rich people) by about a TRILLION dollars. We are currently among the lowest-taxed among the "industrialized" nations, but I doubt you'll find any more vehement tax-haters than among the 1% of USA'ns who control something like 40% of the wealth.
In California, monied interests pushed through a property-tax "reform" measure 25 years ago which leaves neighboring homeowners paying rates which are 100% different, and business being taxed at 1978 rates. We've gone from one of the best educational systems in the country to near the bottom, with many entire districts insolvent.
We all know the phrases "penny-wise, pound-foolish" or "an ounce of preventionequals a pound of cure," yet continue to defer trillions in debt for our children to pay, and to try and win the lottery so we, too, can join the life of the idle rich... |
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03/02/2003 04:21:42 PM · #37 |
This is an interesting discussion. I don't know what I can add to it.
In the U.K. some homeless people sell a national magazine called the Big Issue. They get about 75% of the price of the mag' for themselves. I found out recently that before anyone can be a vendor for the magazine they have to show that they are doing certain things. Like attending training courses and things like that. I always give to the Big Issue as I am pretty sure that the money is not being wasted.
I think if you wanted to show despair in a photograph of a homeless person you might have to add another element, say an unhealthy countenance or a bottle of alcohol or something like that.
People have mentioned about God being willing to give help to anyone living on the streets if they want to accept it. Isn't it ironic that Christ was homeless and he lived off other people's handouts for a time in his life. He was anything but despairing. It goes to show that it is possible to be on the streets and be quite content (I think it must be unusual in today's society though, but perhaps I am naive.)
Anthony.
Message edited by author 2003-03-02 16:23:26.
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03/02/2003 05:30:42 PM · #38 |
Wow, I used to buy the Big Issue on a regular basis! I completely forgot about it. That's one good thing England has which I haven't seen in the USA. Somebody asked how america is different. In england, anybody is allowed to get an overdraft at the bank. Anybody. If what happened to my husband and I happened in england, the bank would no doubt allow us an overdraft just so we wouldn't get charged out of the wazoo. Here, we got turned down for Overdraft Protection. It seems only people with good credit can have that. So.... If you have good credit, why the HELL do you need overdraft protection?!!?!
Too many differences. |
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03/02/2003 06:16:54 PM · #39 |
I havent gotten around to reading this whole thread, so if there is any reduntance here, please forgive me.
Nothing could convince me that most homeless people want to be in that situation, no mater how it may appear. When hopelessness settles in, some just are trapped and can't see their way out. Even if YOU can see a way out. When everything has gone wrong in a person's life, and circumstances are overwhelming, it is pretty darn hard to think straight.
As a volunteer, I've worked with many of society's "fringe" people, eg:homeless, poor, prisoners, etc, (though I haven't done nearly enough) and it is just terrible.
I'm not suggesting that all be given handouts, but I can't ignore the scripture that admonishes "Give to the poor, and you LEND to God." We must have hearts of mercy.
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03/02/2003 06:28:12 PM · #40 |
I don't think there is much debating going on in this thread, just a lot of people saying the same things in a different way. If anyone, I agree most with Lisae. Depression is hard and can often be responsible for people's situations and it's not their fault. I've been there. In fact, there are people out there that do this sort of thing to other people so that they can beat them and they try to make them crazy and messed up. I've been there. As for how this relates to the despair challenge, I agree that homeless people don't necessarily show despair. I have know many homeless people and even let many of them stay with me for periods of time while they got on their feet. They were happy and friendly. They weren't lazy. They just couldn't get a job, but they weren't hopeless. They sold art sketches and poetry to people on the street and were content with their life. Even if they suddenly got rich and won the lottery or something they wouldn't go wasting it like many people do, they would invest in helping other people like themselves. I was going to take a picture of the liquor store from across the street during a downpour when the street was flooded. There was a possibly homeless person on the step drinking in the rain and there were seemingly happy college students inside buying the same thing he was to make them forget about their comparatively miniscule troubles. I was going to title it "Sea of sorrows." I didn't take it because I thought it would be better without the homeless man in it. I felt uncomfortable taking his picture like I was gawking at him. I know people like him that have been homeless since we were kids and I wouldn't want to put them in the same position. I waited but he didn't leave so I never got a picture for the despair challenge because that was on Sunday. I believe that true despair is in the mind.
Message edited by author 2003-03-02 18:28:34. |
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03/02/2003 06:52:16 PM · #41 |
Lisae said "People should never be given just one chance and then written off, they need to be given every possible chance until they make it." Yes!! Lisa I couldn't agree more with this!
Lisa "People get into a downward spiral and as time goes on it gets harder and harder to get off it........at some point they made an error of judgement and couldn't reverse it." I've seen it many times in my 50 years. I made such a tremendous error in judgement as a teenager, and have suffered the consequences ever since. If only someone would have helped me then.
Lisa said ".......I had a medical problem that was affecting both my physical and mental health. Anyone who has never experienced clinical depression cannot identify with how harmful it is. You don't care enough about your own life to fight for anything." It seems more and more people are suffering with various chemical imbalances, that affect their physical and mental health. To some the help isn't available. My husband and I lost our income and home 16 months ago, and still haven't found employment that supports us. We both have medical conditions that need attention, and have NO medical insurance. Fortunately we still have credit. We have been living almost entirely on our credit cards.
Don't think it can't happen to you. It can!!! And please don't stereotype. Every single person is unique and each situation is completely different.
Lisa said "My second point is that even for people who work and work and work, poverty traps exist. They need external help to get out of them. There are people out there in an economic hamster wheel, working 2 jobs and still not being able to afford a home for their family." This is something else I've seen many, many times in my life, especially working as a volunteer with the poor. "Judge not, lest you be judged."
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