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03/01/2003 09:44:30 AM · #1 |
| Despair looks like a tough subject to take photo. Lot of pics are hard to vote on! |
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03/01/2003 10:47:27 AM · #2 |
I think that homeless people shots don't show despair. I do believe and know for a fact that some homeless folks choose that life and find it comfortable to live that way. So is it really despair for them or is it just us feeling sorry for them? I know there are some that have had it hard and tried to make it. But if you look at Stevey Wonder~he is blind and black and he made it and is well off. If people have there heart set on something, they can achieve anything. Sorry, but that is my thoughts on it.
Edit to say this. I reread my post and wanted to add this. I do think they show despair in away someway and I didn't vote them low. I just feel that they if they really wanted out of their terrible situation then they would do something about it.
The mental illness issues is very sad and does show despair.
Message edited by author 2003-03-01 11:34:37.
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03/01/2003 11:06:13 AM · #3 |
Changed my mind... I'm not getting into this...
Message edited by author 2003-03-01 11:06:58.
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03/01/2003 11:35:50 AM · #4 |
I have many pictures of people who are smiling for the camera, but on the inside are having a miserable time.
If you live vicariously through the subjects in the photographs, it is easy to see the photographer̢۪s interpretation of despair. It isn̢۪t always the state of mind of the subject. Ignorance is bliss and happiness is wanting what you have.
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03/01/2003 11:51:24 AM · #5 |
Originally posted by Sonifo:
I think that homeless people shots don't show despair. I do believe and know for a fact that some homeless folks choose that life and find it comfortable to live that way. |
Sounds like Social Darwinism to me. I think that is an extremely simplistic and optimistic view of the situtation. Please visit this webpage.
"Some" must be an extreme minority, and I don't believe thatshould shape your views on the subject. I also don't understand your connection between being blind and necessarily homeless.
Martin |
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03/01/2003 12:12:30 PM · #6 |
Sorry, but I kind of have to throw in with Sonja here. Several years ago, a wealthy, business owner friend of my Mom's went Christmas shopping at the mall with his wife. Between their home and the mall, they saw 7 "homeless" people on the side of the road with the usual "work for food" signs. (One was a woman who had 4 small children with her!) He and his wife stopped and spoke with every one of the 7 people. He gave them his business card, and told every one of them to come to his office the next morning and he would find them a place to stay and give them a job. (To the woman with children, he offered to take her and the children to a shelter right then, until he could arrange something else - she refused.) NOT ONE OF THEM SHOWED UP AT HIS OFFICE. That tells me that more than just a few CHOOSE that life.
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03/01/2003 12:36:34 PM · #7 |
Look, it sounds like a useful fiction, and that's fine if you want to pretend you can't help (because you can't help people that don't want to be helped). But you can not seriously be arguing that the entire homeless population is homeless because they enjoy the lifestyle, and would, given the choice, continue it. Most of these people are trying desperately to get jobs, but a good number of them have figured out that, in any of the states, a full-time minimum-wage job can't even pay for a single-bedroom apartment. Heck, 19% of the homeless are employed. I think, lhall, that you've found some interesting evidence of pessimism on the side of the homeless, but nothing to suggest that they're living on the streets for their own diversion.
Try it.
Martin |
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03/01/2003 12:49:26 PM · #8 |
Malokata knows what he's talking about.
In my country, the number of homeless rose sharply after our government decided to close down a number of mental health institutions and change to a more "community care" based approach to mental illness.
On top of that, a lot of people in the US would be completely disgusted if they realised how many homeless people over there are war veterans - mostly from Vietnam and the Gulf War. The unfortunate truth is that in the US all it takes is one serious injury or chronic illness to make you homeless, due to the lack of health insurance and low minimum wage. War veterans tend to have not only chronic health problems, but post traumatic stress disorder AND often drug or alcohol addictions.
A large number of homeless in the US are also women whose income dropped by, on average, 70% after a divorce, and whose spouses have skipped on maintenance payments. I saw a nasty documentary about a few women like this, some with children, who lived in their cars.
The largest portion of the homeless population at any particular time are completely invisible to us. They're not out on the streets begging. They're in shelters, doing their best to survive, feed their families, and get work. |
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03/01/2003 12:58:37 PM · #9 |
Okay, I have to jump in with Sonifo and lhall here. I have more than once offered to help those holding "Please Help" signs, or otherwise homeless people. I will continue to do it. I feel that God has given me everything I have, and if they waste it, they can deal with Him when the time comes.
That said, if you are ever travelling I-40 through Western NC, adn you take exit 37, just between Canton and Candler, you will most likely see some "homeless" people. Having seen them many times, over a period of YEARS, you start to figure out they are running a racket. Sometimes they can bring in 2 or 3 hundred dollars A DAY during tourist season. These are substantiated facts. My photojournalism shot shows one of these "entrepeneurs"--and I got to watch them change shifts the day I took that shot!
I also have a good friend whose brother is homeless. She has offered "Steve" a place to live, her husband has offered him a job, etc, and he refuses. Why???? He says he likes the freedom of being homeless. Here's the kicker -- he has a nice home. But periodically he wants to be free, so he heads to Frog Level (local homeless hangout) and hangs out under the bridges.
Ok, after all of those examples, I still help them. Why? Like Sonifo said, some are trying. I have friends who are the directors at at the local regional homeless mission. For each example above, I can also tell you one of someone who was on the skids, and with help, turned their life around.
Now, to pick a bone with Sonifo (insert wink and grin here)-- True, the person may not be feeling despair, but looking at it makes me feel that way. My picture doesn't show people in despair, but it makes me (and about 2 other voters) think of despair. I guess it all depends on how you view the situation.
karmat
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03/01/2003 01:04:27 PM · #10 |
I have family that have been in the war. World war 2, vietnam war, and the desert storm. They had some troubles and delt with them. They are leading good, healthy lives. Why is it that some can't seem to heel and move on?
I am one who was thrown out on the street at the age of 17 and couldn't find a job. I was homeless for about 5 months. I got myself out of the hole by keeping my head up and knowing that I could make it. I have a great life now. A wonderful husband and 4 beautiful kids. If I can do most anyone can. That isn't counting the mentally ill though.
That is a different story.
Please excuse the spelling!
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03/01/2003 01:10:56 PM · #11 |
Originally posted by lisae:
Malokata knows what he's talking about.
In my country, the number of homeless rose sharply after our government decided to close down a number of mental health institutions and change to a more "community care" based approach to mental illness.
On top of that, a lot of people in the US would be completely disgusted if they realised how many homeless people over there are war veterans - mostly from Vietnam and the Gulf War. The unfortunate truth is that in the US all it takes is one serious injury or chronic illness to make you homeless, due to the lack of health insurance and low minimum wage. War veterans tend to have not only chronic health problems, but post traumatic stress disorder AND often drug or alcohol addictions.
A large number of homeless in the US are also women whose income dropped by, on average, 70% after a divorce, and whose spouses have skipped on maintenance payments. I saw a nasty documentary about a few women like this, some with children, who lived in their cars.
The largest portion of the homeless population at any particular time are completely invisible to us. They're not out on the streets begging. They're in shelters, doing their best to survive, feed their families, and get work. |
don't veterans in the US get lifetime health insurance or at least highly discounted health insurance? also to the people that say that they don't see despair in homeless people, maybe you should get out a little more. go to new york city where you will honestly see poverty and despair in terrible forms. that is such an insensitive way to look at a large population of citizens.you are stereotyping a group of people because of one experience you had with a homeless person. even if you say someone chose a lifestyle like being homeless(which is totally rediculous in itself) how does that take away the despair of the situation? you think if you know of no way to further yourself and you decide to just settle for homelessness that it makes homelessness somehow easier to cope with? |
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03/01/2003 01:13:21 PM · #12 |
Achiral,
You go out there and put it to the test and see what happens. Then come back and say what you did.
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03/01/2003 01:14:21 PM · #13 |
Originally posted by Sonifo:
I have family that have been in the war. World war 2, vietnam war, and the desert storm. They had some troubles and delt with them. They are leading good, healthy lives. Why is it that some can't seem to heel and move on?
I am one who was thrown out on the street at the age of 17 and couldn't find a job. I was homeless for about 5 months. I got myself out of the hole by keeping my head up and knowing that I could make it. I have a great life now. A wonderful husband and 4 beautiful kids. If I can do most anyone can. That isn't counting the mentally ill though.
That is a different story.
Please excuse the spelling! |
you can't honestly be saying that you are comparing your situation to that of someone who was in the vietnam war and came back. that is laughable. what about all the people that were against war at the time. what about veterans of that war coming home and finding out getting a job was harder because employers were protesting the war. what about the psychological effects of people in war and then having to readjust to civilian life? your simplistic attitude really does nothing for this discussion. i'm sorry, but i feel passionate about the poor in america and it makes me mad to hear this kind of stuff |
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03/01/2003 01:16:17 PM · #14 |
Originally posted by Malokata:
Look, it sounds like a useful fiction, and that's fine if you want to pretend you can't help (because you can't help people that don't want to be helped). But you can not seriously be arguing that the entire homeless population is homeless because they enjoy the lifestyle, and would, given the choice, continue it. Most of these people are trying desperately to get jobs, but a good number of them have figured out that, in any of the states, a full-time minimum-wage job can't even pay for a single-bedroom apartment. Heck, 19% of the homeless are employed. I think, lhall, that you've found some interesting evidence of pessimism on the side of the homeless, but nothing to suggest that they're living on the streets for their own diversion.
Try it.
Martin |
Two things:
1. I never said I didn't try to help. I do, and always HAVE tried to help "homeless" people when and where I can. The Lord has always led me to help whether it be with food, money, a ride or whatever, but in all these years, I have only had ONE person that seriously wanted help. All the others basically said "just show me the money".
2. I agree with Karmat that although a "homeless" person in a photo may not be in despair, the very depiction itself can portray despair, and in fact make the viewer feel despair for the situation.
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03/01/2003 01:16:58 PM · #15 |
Originally posted by Sonifo:
Achiral,
You go out there and put it to the test and see what happens. Then come back and say what you did. |
yes i work in downtown chicago every day and i walk a mile to work. i am speaking from experience. |
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03/01/2003 01:21:18 PM · #16 |
Originally posted by achiral:
Originally posted by Sonifo:
Achiral,
You go out there and put it to the test and see what happens. Then come back and say what you did. |
yes i work in downtown chicago every day and i walk a mile to work. i am speaking from experience. |
No offense intended here achiral, but your profile says that you are 23. If that is indeed true, talk to me about this again when you are 50. I felt just the way you do when I was in my 20's - but somewhere along the way, reality set in...
I'm not saying that there are not some truly homeless people out there, I'm just saying that YES, in my experience, a great many of them choose that.
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03/01/2003 01:22:17 PM · #17 |
Originally posted by achiral:
you can't honestly be saying that you are comparing your situation to that of someone who was in the vietnam war and came back. |
Yes I can. I have never killed, but have seen it all! I won't tell my whole story, but I am sure I have seen more then a lot of you here in these forums. My brothers and sisters are major drug addicts and choose to live that way. I chose the other way. To lead a life with Jesus. So keep laughing, but I know what the other side is like.
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03/01/2003 01:25:37 PM · #18 |
| Here's some good information on homelessness among veterans in the US. |
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03/01/2003 01:26:14 PM · #19 |
Originally posted by lhall:
Originally posted by achiral:
Originally posted by Sonifo:
Achiral,
You go out there and put it to the test and see what happens. Then come back and say what you did. |
yes i work in downtown chicago every day and i walk a mile to work. i am speaking from experience. |
No offense intended here achiral, but your profile says that you are 23. If that is indeed true, talk to me about this again when you are 50. I felt just the way you do when I was in my 20's - but somewhere along the way, reality set in...
I'm not saying that there are not some truly homeless people out there, I'm just saying that YES, in my experience, a great many of them choose that. |
real well thought out argument there. your argument is that by getting older i will somehow care less about homeless people? or that magically i will realize that they all enjoy being homeless and they are all swindlers out to get a buck? c'mon i don't need to be fifty to understand poverty and despair. |
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03/01/2003 01:28:35 PM · #20 |
Originally posted by Sonifo:
Originally posted by achiral:
you can't honestly be saying that you are comparing your situation to that of someone who was in the vietnam war and came back. |
Yes I can. I have never killed, but have seen it all! I won't tell my whole story, but I am sure I have seen more then a lot of you here in these forums. My brothers and sisters are major drug addicts and choose to live that way. I chose the other way. To lead a life with Jesus. So keep laughing, but I know what the other side is like. |
ok so you have no respect for the military then, is that it? i'm sorry your situation doesn't come close to being in vietnam and coming back home. period. |
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03/01/2003 01:30:34 PM · #21 |
Originally posted by Sonifo:
...I am one who was thrown out on the street at the age of 17 and couldn't find a job. I was homeless for about 5 months. I got myself out of the hole by keeping my head up and knowing that I could make it... |
So what I don't get is why you now automatically assume others' experience is not substantially the same as yours. As a 17YO female, it still took you 5 months to escape homelessness, and the economy may have been different, and the policy of "benign neglect" not yet in full force. Why do you assume others aren't trying just as hard as you? They may not be as successful. It's probably harder to get a job as a 36YO with a couple of kids to manage.
Also, many folks might well "choose" homelessness over homeless shelters or a ratty hotel room for health and safety reasons. They are not choosing homelessness over having a "home." |
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03/01/2003 01:34:25 PM · #22 |
real well thought out argument there. your argument is that by getting older i will somehow care less about homeless people? or that magically i will realize that they all enjoy being homeless and they are all swindlers out to get a buck? c'mon i don't need to be fifty to understand poverty and despair.
Absolutely stunning proof that reality can't argue with youth!
Message edited by author 2003-03-01 13:35:25.
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03/01/2003 01:37:05 PM · #23 |
Originally posted by myqyl:
Changed my mind... I'm not getting into this...
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Good advice myqyl, I think I'm getting out of this...
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03/01/2003 01:37:16 PM · #24 |
what is your point lhall? you didn't give one. you just said that i shouldn't be in this argument because of my age. well what age group would you suggest be in this argument. is 40 a good cutoff, 50 maybe?
reality can't argue with senility either i guess |
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03/01/2003 01:38:31 PM · #25 |
Originally posted by achiral:
ok so you have no respect for the military then, is that it? i'm sorry your situation doesn't come close to being in vietnam and coming back home. period. |
Where did I say that!!!!! I do respect the folks who have been in the wars. There is help out there and people should get it. God provides help for all, but you must choose it!! You go out there and look at the kids who come from abusive homes. It is war for them! And no one is out there to help them because they are a stupid teenager with a bad background. They have no family! No one wants to hire them, because they have no exsperience.
Vietnam war was tragic, but so is a life for a child who lived in what some would consider hell.
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