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02/23/2003 09:51:19 AM · #26 |
Originally posted by lisae:
Originally posted by boyte1:
No hidden meaning here . No call to war. No secret political messages.
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I don't think anyone here would imagine that you intended any secret political messages. You must, however, understand that a flag is a very powerful symbol, the American flag more than virtually any other. If you ignore the symbolism innate to the subject of your photo, you're not really doing it justice, and you're not thinking about how it will be received by people outside your country.
When I was in the US last year, I found myself standing underneath one of those huge flags you guys have everywhere... outside a shopping mall or something. I had my camera in my hand. I took a photo of it, just like the 4 in this challenge. It's an obvious thing to photograph, and I can understand why people would. But it's very, very hard for a lot of people to look at an image like that dispassionately. |
I strongly disagree that she ignored sybolism. It is clearly defined as an American flag at half mast to honor those lost on the Columbia. I don't understand this thread or controversy on the photo. I believe it was taken to honor those on the Columbia not to make a political statement. Some of you read into photos way too much. |
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02/23/2003 10:20:52 AM · #27 |
Just a few thoughts:
I encourage everyone and anyone to photograph their countries flag with pride and patriotism. If I photograph a US flag and someone doesn't like it only because it is a US flag that so be it. Yes, the American flag is a very bold and unmistakable as the US flag when seen.
It may seem that President Bush has a personal vendetta against Iraq but that isn't the case. President Bush is trying to protect the US and all other countries in the world from a mad man. There are proven ties between those that attacked the US World Trade Centers and Saddam. Yea, I think we should sit back and wait for it to happen again. NOT!!! Who knows, the next attack could be on Buckingham Palace, London Bridge, Empire State Building, Eiffel Tower, Patronis Towers, etc., etc., etc. What should the US do? Sit and wait for the next plane to crash or bomb to go off killing thousands? I don't think so.
Now not only do we have terrorism to worry about, now we have North Korea with Nuclear Weapons that can reach the west coast of the US. Know what that means people? If they can reach the west coast of the US, they can reach just about all other places in the world too. Why does on now start to build nuclear weapons unless you plan to use them?
I don't think those in other countries realize how nervous and on edge people here in the US have been since the World Trade Center incident. You can't even find duct tape or plastic here in the North East US where I live because people are sealing up their houses in fear of chemical war on Washington (which Iraq has threatened). The US is trying to protect it's own. That's all.
Also, the US isn't trying to what Iraq tried to do to Kuwait. We don't want to take over and own Iraq. We simply want to remove a hostile leader and replace his government with one that isn't a threat to the world.
Oh, yea. It's true. There are people starving in the world but there are also people starving here in the US. A lot of those countries that have starving populations also have some of the most wealthy leaders. I think they should help their own. I must say thought that the US is also guilty of not always taking care of it's own. We send food all around the world for starving people but you can still walk down a street in most US City's and find a homeless, hungry person.
Okay. I'm done. This will be my last post to this thread because I don't believe this is what DPChallenge is all about. Everyone one this site get along and we are from all different countries. Now, why can't governments learn to do the same. Oh, yea. It's all about money and who has what to offer.
I really hope no one in the DPChallenge community gets upset about any remarks in this entire forum post because we are just a bunch of people speaking our minds. The DPChallenge community is a perfect example that the world should learn from.
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02/23/2003 10:40:32 AM · #28 |
Originally posted by wackybill:
I don't think those in other countries realize how nervous and on edge people here in the US have been since the World Trade Center incident. You can't even find duct tape or plastic here in the North East US where I live because people are sealing up their houses in fear of chemical war on Washington (which Iraq has threatened). The US is trying to protect it's own. That's all. |
We do realise this. I have American relatives and friends, and I hate the fear that I feel on their behalf. Also, people in other countries have suffered from terrorist attacks. People from many countries died in the WTC attacks, and last year over 100 Australians died in the Bali bombing. There are many people in my own country who are stocking up on gas masks, duct tape, etc.
It's just unfortunate that many politicians are playing on people's fears to justify outcomes that are not directly related to terrorism at all. I'm happy that millions of people in 600 cities around the world demonstrated last weekend that they are not going to take that lightly.
Originally posted by wackybill:
Okay. I'm done. This will be my last post to this thread because I don't believe this is what DPChallenge is all about. |
I disagree. This site is a part of popular culture. It can't escape the issues of the day, and it shouldn't try to. Look how powerful art is in times of crisis, in giving people a way of expressing their feelings on all sides of the conflict. At a press conference from the UN last week, Colin Powell had Picasso's anti-war painting covered because it undermined the message he wanted to give... How powerful is that?!
I highly encourage people to photograph everything that is meaningful to them, with the understanding that there will be others on this site who will have opposing or conflicting views. There's nothing wrong with this... in fact, as members of democratic countries, I think we can all accept that when we listen to one another, we have the most success.
Originally posted by wackybill:
I really hope no one in the DPChallenge community gets upset about any remarks in this entire forum post because we are just a bunch of people speaking our minds. The DPChallenge community is a perfect example that the world should learn from. |
This is true. |
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02/23/2003 11:01:38 AM · #29 |
*rant*
It's forum threads like this that have really skewed me anti-DPC in recent weeks.
I find it highly interesting that the photo that inspires the most debate is a flag -- expecially when there have been plenty of other photos people could have gotten upset about. Let's, see...just off the top of my head, we've got dildos, boobie, apples-as-female parts, bondage, and naked men with colored pencils.
I think that boyte1 is kind of being unfairly attacked, as his photo was designed, quite well actually, as a tribute and not a source of controversy. Any discussion of W, Irag, imperialism, etc. really has no place on this site. Sure, we all have our opinions. Big whoop. I could get on my virtual soapbox and go on for days. But there is a time and a place for this kind of stuff and this is NOT IT.
Rob |
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02/23/2003 12:08:14 PM · #30 |
Ok, I'll jump in, bite my lip, and simply say this...I started this thread because of a comment, NOT because of a flag.
I am sorry that this has turned into a political discussion, but that's not what I meant to do.
z |
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02/23/2003 12:11:00 PM · #31 |
| I am sad that I come to dpc to "get away from it all", and it is still here. :( |
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02/23/2003 12:11:28 PM · #32 |
sigh.........
Thanks Rob.
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02/23/2003 12:15:27 PM · #33 |
...oh and one other thing...
Very interesting how on that same photo, comments like 'Beautifull, thanks' got marked useful, while the ones that actually evaluated the photo, such as my in-depth critique, were not.
So here's anohter rant...if all you want is for CC critiquers to tell you that your photo is beautiful, don't waste our time by asking for an in-depth critique...please. Others did not get an in-depth critique because of the volume, and I don't want to waste time on photos from photographers who dont really want one.
z |
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02/23/2003 12:40:24 PM · #34 |
I would like to see any one of you go out and take a picture like her(boyte) flag shot and see how well it turns out. I for one would have to work real hard at getting it as perfect as she did. The flag is blowing in the wind and she caught it just right that there is not a blure and the pole is perfectly in focus. She used the rule of thirds and the colors are amazing. I gave the photo a 10, not because it is an american flag, but because it is an incredable shot and the meaning behind it (the lose of the people in the columbia crash).
I think some folks are to emotional and can't handle voting on intense photos that have meaning.
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02/23/2003 01:20:46 PM · #35 |
Originally posted by wackybill:
Why does on now start to build nuclear weapons unless you plan to use them? |
The US currently possesses some 2-3000 nuclear weapons, and incidentally is the ONLY country to have ever used them, to obliterate a city of some 50,000 residents (twice).
Originally posted by wackybill:
Everyone one this site get along and we are from all different countries. Now, why can't governments learn to do the same. Oh, yea. It's all about money and who has what to offer. |
Precisely my point.
boyte1: I gave your photo a 7, thought it was both well-done and a welcome tribute to the Columbia's crew. My remarks have NOTHING to do with any individual photos or their creators, and primarily come in response to the question as to why flag images seem to provoke extreme reactions.
I also have no problem with us discussing the issues of the day (in the RANT forums, for sure), since art is supposed to be about communication, and understanding the feelings and motivations of the artist. I think learning about what and how other folks think is a key to understanding, and I believe will help us realize we have more in common than differences. |
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02/23/2003 02:42:45 PM · #36 |
Originally posted by wackybill:
There are proven ties between those that attacked the US World Trade Centers and Saddam. |
Could you be specific? Thanks.
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02/23/2003 03:01:14 PM · #37 |
I agree with you Chris!
Originally posted by ChrisW123:
It's not a "personal agenda", it's fighting an evil dictator who kills his own people and is trying develop weapons of mass destruction after being told by the UN not to. If we don't take him out he will sell a nuke to a terrorist and then what do you think will happen?
It's really disturbing how people will focus on the the US President as "evil", etc., yet they will turn a BLIND EYE to Saddam Hussain and others. Makes me wonder where people's priorities are (and why). |
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02/23/2003 09:34:59 PM · #38 |
Originally posted by zadore:
...oh and one other thing...
Very interesting how on that same photo, comments like 'Beautifull, thanks' got marked useful, while the ones that actually evaluated the photo, such as my in-depth critique, were not.
So here's anohter rant...if all you want is for CC critiquers to tell you that your photo is beautiful, don't waste our time by asking for an in-depth critique...please. Others did not get an in-depth critique because of the volume, and I don't want to waste time on photos from photographers who dont really want one.
z |
And perhaps you should take a second look. It is marked. Could it be that she didn't know she had received the cc critique, yet?
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02/24/2003 12:05:05 AM · #39 |
Originally posted by Sonifo:
I agree with you Chris!
Originally posted by ChrisW123:
It's not a "personal agenda", it's fighting an evil dictator who kills his own people and is trying develop weapons of mass destruction after being told by the UN not to. If we don't take him out he will sell a nuke to a terrorist and then what do you think will happen?
It's really disturbing how people will focus on the the US President as "evil", etc., yet they will turn a BLIND EYE to Saddam Hussain and others. Makes me wonder where people's priorities are (and why). |
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It's not about turning a blind eye to Saddam Hussein. Most people would simply like all peaceful avenues to be pursued, and the process to be multilateral. The US should not be the world's police, making all foreign policy decisions on its own, arbitrarily, without consultation. As long as Bush lets the UN do its job, most people are happy for Saddam to be pursued.
It's surprising, though, how many people are willing to believe that Saddam, a Sunni muslim, would sell nukes to Wahabbis like al-Qaeda. These are people who are opposed to Sunnis, who don't consider them to be muslims, and who would be more willing to turn nukes on Saddam in order to assist a Shi'ite uprising than to use his nukes against the US (assuming he has them, when there has been no evidence from the weapons inspections that he does). You have to remember that Osama's greatest enemies are the Saudi Arabian rulers, followed by other infidels like Saddam. They are the most direct threat to his ideology. Iraq's population is 70% Shi'ite, but the 10% Sunni minority have been in control since the West assisted them to take over in the 60s and 70s. Osama would love regime change in Iraq. I think he's looking forward to this war with great anticipation, and hoping that the Shi'ites will overthrow whoever the US puts in Saddam's place. And yet again, I'm sure the Kurds are just going to be another political pawn... they'll be used by the US to help gain control of Northern Iraq, and then during the internal conflict that follows the war, they'll be slaughtered as usual.
Polls have shown that in the US, there is a direct correllation between knowledge about Iraq and opposition to the war. The more people know, the less they believe about the so-called links to terrorists, or any involvement at all by Saddam in the WTC attacks. |
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02/24/2003 01:23:28 AM · #40 |
I just have to wonder what the world would look like if America were not here to protect freedom around the world. I know it's in vogue to blame us for everything from global warming to AIDS in Africa and President Bush is depicted as this crazed mad man that wants to control the world and steal all of its oil, when the truth is we were attacked on 9/11 and 3000 people died. Ever since then there has been a constant threat of more attacks and I get the feeling that a lot of people around the world quietly think that that's ok and that we are now getting our just dues.
Know this; a weaker America does not make the rest of the world stronger (unless you live in North Korea or share in the fundamentalist Muslim philosophy) If the terrorist get their way none of us will be spending our free time taking pictures for a photo contest and the women of the world have the most to lose. How do you take pictures wearing a Burka?
Message edited by author 2003-02-24 01:26:53. |
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02/24/2003 02:42:53 AM · #41 |
Originally posted by rcrawford:
...when the truth is we were attacked on 9/11 and 3000 people died. Ever since then there has been a constant threat of more attacks and I get the feeling that a lot of people around the world quietly think that that's ok and that we are now getting our just dues. |
Don't get that feeling. It's the wrong feeling.
Just try to understand that a lot of people think there is a better way to end terrorism than premature, badly planned military action. In fact, a lot of people are terrified that the conflict will spread, that problems in Israel will spill over, that Turkey will end up in a civil war, that Iraq will split into 3 separate states that will end up fighting each other and their neighbours, that Pakistan will go fundamentalist as a result of muslim opposition to the conflict and attack India WITH KNOWN NUCLEAR WEAPONS, that thousands will die, and that this will only lead to more terrorism.
Perhaps you can understand that this fear isn't based at all on anti-Americanism, but is in fact a legitimate desire for peace and stability for everyone? |
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02/24/2003 11:59:23 AM · #42 |
Originally posted by lisae:
Originally posted by rcrawford:
...when the truth is we were attacked on 9/11 and 3000 people died. Ever since then there has been a constant threat of more attacks and I get the feeling that a lot of people around the world quietly think that that's ok and that we are now getting our just dues. |
Don't get that feeling. It's the wrong feeling.
Just try to understand that a lot of people think there is a better way to end terrorism than premature, badly planned military action. In fact, a lot of people are terrified that the conflict will spread, that problems in Israel will spill over, that Turkey will end up in a civil war, that Iraq will split into 3 separate states that will end up fighting each other and their neighbours, that Pakistan will go fundamentalist as a result of muslim opposition to the conflict and attack India WITH KNOWN NUCLEAR WEAPONS, that thousands will die, and that this will only lead to more terrorism.
Perhaps you can understand that this fear isn't based at all on anti-Americanism, but is in fact a legitimate desire for peace and stability for everyone? |
I share your fear that this conflict can spread but I donĂ¢€™t see how letting Saddam get away with thumbing his nose at the unanimous UN resolution 1441 will detour him and others like him. If America and the UN stand down now what message does that send to Iraq, Pakistan, North Korea, Iran, Syria and other countries that are lead by dictators with a different world vision than we share. Peace and stability have never been maintained through weakness and pacifism.
Message edited by author 2003-02-24 12:10:46. |
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02/24/2003 01:47:42 PM · #43 |
Originally posted by rcrawford:
Peace and stability have never been maintained through weakness and pacifism. |
How often have we (as a whole world) tried? Peace and stability have never really been maintained by military action either, or else after more than six thousand years of documented warfare the world ought to be pretty peaceful by now.
Mr. Ghandi and Dr. King were pretty effective leaders, despite a commitment to non-violent persuasion.
And, I think that the case of Mr. Hitler proves that the greatest weapon of mass distruction is the Big Lie, told to a fearful and distressed populace.
For anyone who has never done so, please read George Orwell's 1984 and ask yourself why you should know what "collateral damage" means. |
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02/24/2003 11:03:58 PM · #44 |
Whew, this was a pretty good thread! Everyone getting to speak their opinions, which is great.
One suggestion I might make is, in next week's challenge we might want to try a "Best American Flag Photo" contest? *ducks* :)
Or seriously, maybe a "Your Best Flag Photo" contest. That'd be interesting to see everyone's flag or even flags of anything and not necessarily of a country if you don't want. Dunno, just an idea, might be interesting.
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02/24/2003 11:08:53 PM · #45 |
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