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 02/21/2003 06:30:31 PM · #1
hey

I just finished writing a CC critique on one of the perpective shots that depicted an american flag.

I found it a tad 'disturbing' that someone wrote a comment on that photo that stated 'please excuse any nasty remarks you may get for photographing a flag '

After reading all of the comments, I did NOT find any nasty remarks. Why would someone get defensive just like that. Because they had a bad experience on some other website?? This is DPChallenge, and perhaps people here are more 'classy' than you think.

I'd appreciate it if in the future no one else makes assumptions like that, it really insults me/us, IMO.

z...runs and hides for awhile

Message edited by author 2003-02-22 01:57:02.
 02/21/2003 06:35:11 PM · #2
well it's just a fact. Some people are very bitter in regards to american patriotism. There have been many images in past challenges that have gotten nasty remarks about the american flag. Being a non american myself I can see how some people might get sick of seeing american flags pasted everywhere, yet it does not excuse leaving nasty remarks. Some people here are classy and some here are downright rude, it's just the way things are.
 02/21/2003 06:38:31 PM · #3
hey zadore ... i went ahead and read the comment that john left on the image you mentioned and i see no defensive tactic ... He has done an american flag image for this website back in july and I personally have done one for another website and I took that comment just more as an encouragement to shoot what ever you feel is a nice shot ... because at the end of the comment he does mention to keep shooting no matter what people say ... and yes ... people on here - DPChallenge can get nasty at times ... that's all ... and yes - with patriotic images ... we all get over it and smile and move on :)
 02/21/2003 07:04:24 PM · #4
Yea, I don't see anything wrong with John's comment either. I actually think he was being supportive and encouraging.
 02/21/2003 07:05:37 PM · #5
I agree with the comments so far. However, I will be fascinated to see what happens if anyone ever actually posts an overt anti-American image (or, to be more positive, a pro enemy-of-American image) in one of the challenges.
 02/21/2003 07:20:23 PM · #6
Originally posted by Jak:
I agree with the comments so far. However, I will be fascinated to see what happens if anyone ever actually posts an overt anti-American image (or, to be more positive, a pro enemy-of-American image) in one of the challenges.


What scares me is, a lot of people don't seem to realize that "enemies of America" (terrorist supporting States) are everyone's enemy, not just America's! You probably see a lot of American flags in the challenges because patriotic Americans love the flag and like posting the pictures. If you love your country then post a flag from your country. And if you don't love your country that much that you'd want to post a picture of your flag... well, I feel sorry for you. :)
02/21/2003 07:32:22 PM · #7
Originally posted by Jak:
I agree with the comments so far. However, I will be fascinated to see what happens if anyone ever actually posts an overt anti-American image (or, to be more positive, a pro enemy-of-American image) in one of the challenges.


I believe that everyone on this site has the same rights. I have the right to post a picture of the US Flag and everyone else on this site has the right to post a picture of theirs. I don't believe that freedom of speech and expression is just for US Americans.

I happen to love the country in which I live and believe it is one of the best places in the world to live but I do know that not everyone feels the same about the US. Even if someone posts a picture of a burning US flag, that is their right to do so. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that it's right but it's that persons right to express themselves.

Believe it or not, I would encourage users from other countries even if they are currently an enemy or the US to post pictures of their patriotism and flags. I'd love to see it.

Just my feelings. I am a very easy going person though.
 02/21/2003 07:46:48 PM · #8
Originally posted by zadore:
Why, John, would you get on the defensive just like that. Because you had a bad experience on some other website?? This is DPChallenge, and perhaps people here are more 'classy' than you think.

I'd appreciate it if in the future no one else makes assumptions like that, it really insults me/us, IMO.

z...runs and hides for awhile


While you may have every right to rant on a subject you deem worthwhile, I believe it would be best to PM someone rather than direct a forum thread to them.

I see no reason why this thread cannot continue so long as it doesn't continue on a personal note.

Message edited by author 2003-02-21 19:47:17.
 02/21/2003 10:59:07 PM · #9
Originally posted by ChrisW123:
What scares me is, a lot of people don't seem to realize that "enemies of America" (terrorist supporting States) are everyone's enemy, not just America's!


Well, this attitude scares me! Painting the world in right and wrong, black and white, and assuming you're always on top is the thing that frustrates and infuriates the rest of us.

Message edited by author 2003-02-21 22:59:21.
 02/22/2003 12:35:21 AM · #10
it's important to note that not all people that are bitter against the US are terror supporting countries. There are many people out there who are just sick and tired of seeing the american flag posted anywhere it's possible. personally I get sick of it too because of the lack of originality a lot of those images display, not because I hate the US. You can't deny the fact that the US is a strong and aggressive country, and many people dont like that. You can't change how other people think so you might as well just accept it and move on.
 02/22/2003 01:00:31 AM · #11
why is it we have a thread like this about once every quarter?
02/22/2003 03:02:42 AM · #12
Originally posted by karmat:
why is it we have a thread like this about once every quarter?

If I had time I'd review the archives and see if there's some threshold number of flag photos which triggers the first post...
This might be a good time to point out it's possible to love your country while being ashamed of its government.

So I'll pledge allegiance against the flag
And the fall for which it stands
But I'll raise it if I can
--Phil Ochs

Message edited by author 2003-02-22 03:04:52.
 02/22/2003 03:53:26 AM · #13
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Originally posted by karmat:
why is it we have a thread like this about once every quarter?

If I had time I'd review the archives and see if there's some threshold number of flag photos which triggers the first post...
This might be a good time to point out it's possible to love your country while being ashamed of its government.

So I'll pledge allegiance against the flag
And the fall for which it stands
But I'll raise it if I can
--Phil Ochs


Indeed...I don't agree with a lot of what my country does, and I love the States, have many American friends, visit often and love it. I plan on living in San Francisco one day.

But yes, I don't agree with W. and the rather transparent foreign policy. It doesn't mean that the US isn't a great place. The US Government has done some horrible things in the past that it's entirely vulnerable for, and the 'holier than thou' approach to this Iraqi and terrorism war isn't right.
 02/22/2003 04:28:18 AM · #14
I submitted "Columbia".. It was for the perspective challenge.... and a flag ... I just wanted to say it represented the shuttle.... lonely Star in the sky.. flying above the US.....solemn ....and a tribute to those seven

Message edited by author 2003-02-22 04:30:45.
 02/22/2003 12:30:27 PM · #15
Originally posted by tfarrell23:
I submitted "Columbia".. It was for the perspective challenge.... and a flag ...

And I appreciate it -- it's kind of sad how quickly things like the shuttle tragedy become yesterday's news.
And given the challenge topic, I thought all the flag photos were appropriate and pretty well-done -- I'm not one of those who "automatically" vote a particular way because of the photo's subject...I've even used flags in my own compositions:
Sentries at Sunset Aim Higher
02/22/2003 12:31:58 PM · #16
Flags have rarely been instruments of peace. historically they are associated with power and conflict. What appears to some as genuine pride will appear as insular arrogance (at best) to others. its a loosing battle.
My advice would be: stay away from flags, be creative, find others ways to depict your patriotic feelings.

Message edited by author 2003-02-23 04:29:03.
 02/22/2003 02:02:41 PM · #17
To those who feel the USA is too hung up on our flag, consider this...

US law permits the flag to be burned as a sign of protest. The flag is a symbol of our freedom to express ourselves, even to the point of burning (or worse) the symbol itself.

We may hold the flag in high regard, but we hold the Constitution and the freedoms it grants in much higher regard. Perhaps that is why we feel as we do about the flag. In my younger hippie days, I had a saying... "God Bless America! And save us from our Government!"

For the record, I think President Bush is following a personal agenda in this "War on Iraq" of his. The voters in the US have a bloodless revolution every 4 years. Be assured this pretender to the crown will be retired in less then 2 years.

That aside, I think the US flag happens to be very photogenic. This could be for the same reason I think my daughter is very photogenic (a small bias on my part) but in both cases, I happen to think I'm right :)
 02/23/2003 12:22:42 AM · #18
Originally posted by myqyl:
For the record, I think President Bush is following a personal agenda in this "War on Iraq" of his.


It's not a "personal agenda", it's fighting an evil dictator who kills his own people and is trying develop weapons of mass destruction after being told by the UN not to. If we don't take him out he will sell a nuke to a terrorist and then what do you think will happen?

It's really disturbing how people will focus on the the US President as "evil", etc., yet they will turn a BLIND EYE to Saddam Hussain and others. Makes me wonder where people's priorities are (and why).
02/23/2003 12:28:20 AM · #19
I would have to agree. Look at the facts.
I personally think the flags were great. I would have voted a 10 for another country flag if it was well shot. And why not be proud of such a beautiful flag and what it represents. What does your(everyone) flag represent? It would be interesting to know.

Edited to add one more thing.

Why don't we kick Bush out of office and elect Saddam!! Does that change your mind?


Originally posted by ChrisW123:
Originally posted by myqyl:
For the record, I think President Bush is following a personal agenda in this "War on Iraq" of his.


It's not a "personal agenda", it's fighting an evil dictator who kills his own people and is trying develop weapons of mass destruction after being told by the UN not to. If we don't take him out he will sell a nuke to a terrorist and then what do you think will happen?

It's really disturbing how people will focus on the the US President as "evil", etc., yet they will turn a BLIND EYE to Saddam Hussain and others. Makes me wonder where people's priorities are (and why).


Message edited by author 2003-02-23 00:29:55.
 02/23/2003 12:40:39 AM · #20
Originally posted by Sonifo:
...with all humility and meekness and patience.


Being "meek" and having patience is good to a point, but we are beyond that point now I think. It's now a matter of national security and there's no way the US is going lay down and accept aggression towards the USA. If Europe doesn't support us we will do it ourselves. We have always helped out our allies in times of war but look at the thanks/support we get... None at all except Tony Blair and England, and Israel. That's it. All the others are "fair weather supporters".
 02/23/2003 01:24:36 AM · #21
Originally posted by ChrisW123:
[quote=Sonifo]...with all humility and meekness and patience.


Meek = a silent strength, or a restrained strength, not a doormat. ;-)
 02/23/2003 01:48:06 AM · #22
Originally posted by Sonifo:
I would have to agree. Look at the facts.

The problem I have is that our government has a long history of concealing the facts and, to be blunt, lying to its citizenry. Perhaps you have forgotten the Gulf of Tonkin "incident," the bombing of Cambodia, the mining of Managua harbor, Oliver North, etc. (How could I forget Watergate?)

Why is it OK to OUR goverment to say "those are evil people, we must change their government" but not OK for Saddam (or anyone) to say the same of us. After all, the US is the ONLY country right now openly threatening to invade and overthrow a foreign government. Why wouldn't Iraq be justified in launching a pre-emptive first strike against us? We are certainly threatening a soverign nation...

I believe that that Iraq has a horrible, corrupt, repressive regime. Shall we emulate them? I mean, we talk in these forums every day about how we can't take pictures without fear of being arrested/harrassed. To paraphrase Franklin, those who give up a little liberty for some security deserve neither.

I don't really mean that I think we deserve to be attacked -- far from it. But I also believe it is completely immoral for us to attack anyone else. It is completely antithetical to our founding principles and what is supposed to be a national ethos.

The US has about 5% of the world's population and consumes about 35% of the resources, and about 1% of that 5% controls about 70% of the US's wealth. It is run by neither Christian nor Democratic principles. It is time for the US to join the world as an equal partner instead of being greedy hypocrites; maybe people living on 800 calories a day will quit despising us. It wouldn't surprise me if all the dues paid to diet programs in the US would pay for every kid to get enough food to avoid malnutrition.
 02/23/2003 03:27:12 AM · #23
Originally posted by GeneralE:

Why is it OK to OUR goverment to say "those are evil people, we must change their government" but not OK for Saddam (or anyone) to say the same of us. After all, the US is the ONLY country right now openly threatening to invade and overthrow a foreign government. Why wouldn't Iraq be justified in launching a pre-emptive first strike against us? We are certainly threatening a soverign nation...


Damn, something went wrong and I lost the 4 paragraphs or so I originally wrote in reply... hehe, you lucky people :P.

GeneralE - this is exactly the feeling I got when I rated each one of those 4 flag photos in the Perspective challenge. To me they are terrifying images, symbolising militaristic unilateralism that the people in my country and the rest of the world are too weak to resist. I did my best to vote in an unbiased way, and I indicated my feelings in the comments I left (although one of my comments may be confusing since I initially thought there were only 2 flag shots, not 4).

Australia's flag is an anachronistic reference to the British empire, since it still has the Union Jack in its top left corner. I see it as a lame throwback to a time when Britain was the world's most powerful, greedy, genocidal, oppressive force. It seems so harmless now compared to that stars and stripes. It doesn't represent my country to me at all though.

The most patriotic photo I've ever taken was my entry for the Landscape challenge. That single tree, in that drought-stricken landscape, in the area I grew up, speaks to me about my country and everything I love about it far more than a piece of cloth.
 02/23/2003 09:13:29 AM · #24
OK guys, heres the deal. The photo in question is mine. I am American, white, middle class. I took the photo on a whim. There is no hidden meaning, no secret desire to insinuate Americans are better or worse than any other people of this big world. I had taken 2 completely different perspective shots and asked a DPC friend of mine to critique' them for me. The flag picture being my least favorite of the two. We agreed though that of the two this was the better, clearer shot.
No hidden meaning here . No call to war. No secret political messages.

Just a nice PERSPECTIVE shot with a great blue sky background.
The flag was at half mast because of the recent loss of the Columbia, which by the way had astronauts of ALL nationalities aboard. If anything it is a fitting tribute to them .




02/23/2003 09:33:13 AM · #25
Originally posted by boyte1:

No hidden meaning here . No call to war. No secret political messages.


I don't think anyone here would imagine that you intended any secret political messages. You must, however, understand that a flag is a very powerful symbol, the American flag more than virtually any other. If you ignore the symbolism innate to the subject of your photo, you're not really doing it justice, and you're not thinking about how it will be received by people outside your country.

When I was in the US last year, I found myself standing underneath one of those huge flags you guys have everywhere... outside a shopping mall or something. I had my camera in my hand. I took a photo of it, just like the 4 in this challenge. It's an obvious thing to photograph, and I can understand why people would. But it's very, very hard for a lot of people to look at an image like that dispassionately.
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