Rules rewrite status and call for suggestions

02/13/2006 10:47:55 AM · #226

Originally posted by vadvirag:

I think it's good as it is now

Please define "major element" for the us. :)

glad2badad

Apple iPhone 16 Pro

Lensbaby Sweet 35 Optic

02/13/2006 10:47:55 AM · #227

Originally posted by mavrik:

...If people disagree, I also hope they say why - none of this makes any sense without the most community involvement we can get.

I disagree with your proposed ruleset mavrik.

The rules should stay mostly as they are with better clarification of the "Major Elements".

No to dodge/burn in basic...some finished products that have used this are FAR from a "basic" image. Basic is also an equalizer for those trying to get started here.

No to relaxing the advanced rules...if people want to submit digital "art" then find another venue - or has been suggested in another thread, create an additional challenge level with unlimited rules for those so inclined to push their photos outside photography and into art/graphics.

vadvirag

Canon EOS-350D Rebel XT

Canon EF 50mm f/1.8 II

02/13/2006 10:53:49 AM · #228

Originally posted by mavrik:

Originally posted by vadvirag:
I think it's good as it is now

Please define "major element" for the us. :)

I mean it's good to have the basic rules for those who are only registered users, not members - and yes, I say it as a registered user yet. About advanced editing, I agree the currect viewpoint that minor elements could be edited in order to remove small imperfections or enhance your entry. But, the line should be defined more clearly. What if I lasso-tool my subject and make the background BW, is that a minor or a major element? I mean, sometimes it has a big influence on the photo, just as the much use of motion blur does. That's what I meant to say by that. Of course, I am happy to see that the rules will get a format that's more easy to understand. When I was here for the first time, I thought I needed a space-driver license to understand it.

vadvirag

Canon EOS-350D Rebel XT

Canon EF 50mm f/1.8 II

02/13/2006 10:55:45 AM · #229

What I wanted to add is that basic rules keep me inspired to chase the best out of the camera, if I had unlimited editing, I would me more lazy, or so, saying: who cares dust, I will clone it out all.

Beetle

Canon EOS-5D Mark II

Tamron SP AF 24-135mm f/3.5-5.6 AD Aspherical IF for Canon

02/13/2006 11:44:33 AM · #230

Originally posted by mavrik:

Please define "major element" for the us. :)

Show somebody the photo and ask them to describe it to you. Ask them to include everything they think is an important part of the image. Those are the major elements.

Let's take this photo as an example:

If the light fixture (?) in the center of the front barn bothered me, I don't think many people would call it a major element.
Cloning out all the buildings to make it look like untouched wilderness, however, would.

tinmason

02/13/2006 12:13:59 PM · #231

Make Neatoblete, Nightninja, Pixelfixel, Sunrisefix, Sunsetfix in conjuction with Neatoblete, Curvecrusher, FatSat, SuperShooterSharp, PastoFace, and of course my favorite...RibbonRaker illegal! LOL! Just kidding...only Sunsetfix in conjunction with Neatoblete should be illegal!

pidge

Canon EOS-7D Mark II

02/13/2006 12:16:35 PM · #232

I'm really sorry, I haven't read through the entire thread, so if this has been suggested, please ignore it.

It would be a good idea, when listing what is and isn't allowed, to list the equivelent functions in various photo editing software.

I often see people asking, what is the equivelent of this filter in such and such a program? Is this legal? This may come in handy since different programs have different algorithms to do the same thing, which may be legal in one program and not the other.

You may now resumer your regularly scheduled debate on a major element.

nards656

Canon EOS-300D Rebel

02/13/2006 12:18:10 PM · #233

Originally posted by keegbow:

This whole business of the rule changes is a joke ! The only thing that needs to be changed is how the SC interprets the rules because the SC interpretation overrules everything.
...
When there is a controversial decision made they all go scurrying for cover and try to absolve themselves in the forums by saying they didnâ��t vote for it to be DQ, this to me is unacceptable as a member of a Site Council you should stand by the majority rule of the council you belong to for the sake of harmony. If you want to absolve yourself from the decisions made then the whole voting results should be made available to everyone

I don't blame SC a bit for scurrying for cover; they take a lot of abuse.

I do think that individual members of SC, as mentioned, should refrain from saying "I voted against such and such but was overruled." I understand the "US Congress" mentality that makes that happen, but I think it would be best if such comments were limited. I have no problem with the voting record being public, though, as long as ALL votes are public and it's not just one SC member "trying to redeem" themselves.

But that's not a rule thing. Just a personal thought.

The current rules are terribly susceptible to misinterpretation. That needs to be improved, and SC is working to do just that. Let's allow them to work on it without hammering THEM unnecessarily.

Canon EF 16-35mm f/2.8L USM

02/13/2006 12:25:43 PM · #234

Originally posted by Beetle:

Show somebody the photo and ask them to describe it to you. Ask them to include everything they think is an important part of the image. Those are the major elements.

So in Goodman's ribbon winning image - was the person standing behind a major element? In the girl next to the couch, was the couch a major element? Is added motion blur a major element? What about a lightstand? What about a piece of lightstand? How much of a lightstand is an element? If the corner of my lightstand is in the photo, can i clone it out or must I crop it? If I may clone it out, what if it's more like 1/4 of the light? Is that ok to clone out? Or should I crop it? How would I know this before the challenge got me DQd?

"I'll know it when I see it" isn't a definition really - Dr. Jones did NOT consider his lightstand a major element. Some of SC didn't consider it a major element - some did. If it's subjective, it's not a good rule.

M

glad2badad

Apple iPhone 16 Pro

Lensbaby Sweet 35 Optic

02/13/2006 01:05:01 PM · #235

Originally posted by mavrik:

... How would I know this before the challenge got me DQd?
...

If it's that questionable in your own mind, don't do it. If you want to push it, ask for feedback from a couple of SC members in advance (I've done it and gotten good feedback in a timely manner).

If you're really concerned about having distracting elements in your challenge entry, give it more thought on composition and remove them or reposition yourself before you press the shutter. ;^)

Falc

Canon EOS-1D Mark III

02/13/2006 01:26:02 PM · #236

Originally posted by glad2badad:

If you want to push it, ask for feedback from a couple of SC members in advance (I've done it and gotten good feedback in a timely manner).

If you want to push it - then push it and see what happens in voting !!
You will sonn know whether you over stepped the mark. Why overload the already busy SC

Beetle

Canon EOS-5D Mark II

02/13/2006 01:41:39 PM · #237

Originally posted by mavrik:

Originally posted by Beetle:
Show somebody the photo and ask them to describe it to you. Ask them to include everything they think is an important part of the image. Those are the major elements.

So in Goodman's ribbon winning image - was the person standing behind a major element?

Oh you BET that was a major element !!!!!!!

I have taken countless photos that I ended up not using because they would have needed doctoring beyond recognition, and in MY book, I'm trying to become a better PHOTOGRAPHER, not an expert cloner.

If I have to remove heaps of stuff in PP(especially elements I had some control over at the time of the exposure), then I have failed.
I would much rather become good at learning to think about and plan my shot, than having to rescue it afterwards.
If I get an urge to PP like crazy, there are countless other websites to do that on.

The people who clone out major chunks of their photo would never call it a major element, now would they? After all, that means it's against the rules.

Take a third party - an outsider - and ask THEM if they think those two cases had major elements removed.

Just how major does it have to be before you will admit it IS major? 100% of the shot?

02/13/2006 01:44:44 PM · #238

Originally posted by glad2badad:

If it's that questionable in your own mind, don't do it.

If you're really concerned about having distracting elements in your challenge entry, give it more thought on composition and remove them or reposition yourself before you press the shutter. ;^)

What about Dr. Jones entry? I don't even think he thought about it as "questionable" - just "that's not an element of the photo I'm shooting at all."

What I want is something objective, like the rest of the rules. None of this "know it when you see it" crud. Give me details - 640x pixels, taken during the submission dates per server time, no cloning, yes you can dodge & burn or NO you can't. none of this "if it creates an element" stuff. Just simple, easy to adhere by rules.

Your answer makes it seem like this is not a "difficult" thing to do - "just ask SC" - if it were that easy, it wouldn't be the most talked about rule on DPC. It wouldn't be an issue. It IS an issue, one that prompted most of this thread.

~M

glad2badad

Apple iPhone 16 Pro

Lensbaby Sweet 35 Optic

02/13/2006 02:09:01 PM · #239

My point is that it's not THAT difficult to stay within the guidelines. If you're worried about being over the line, then perhaps you should reconsider. Maybe some of the burden is on the photographer?

Take a clean photo, or at least one you can crop, without having to do major cleanup on in PP. It's really not that hard.

If the photographer takes care of their end, then the issue doesn't exist in the first place.

DrAchoo

Panasonic Lumix DMC-LX5

Canon EF 70-200mm f/4.0L USM

02/13/2006 02:12:11 PM · #240

Originally posted by Falc:

If you want to push it - then push it and see what happens in voting !!
You will sonn know whether you over stepped the mark. Why overload the already busy SC

So this will basically eliminate the "major element" rule because there is no way for the voter to know if something existed in that negative space or not...

karmat

Apple iPhone 7

02/13/2006 02:17:41 PM · #241

Originally posted by Falc:

Why overload the already busy SC

Yea, we're busy now, but after this rewrite, we're all headed to the Bahamas for a few weeks. Ya'll will be on your own.

(BTW -- that is a blatant lie. I'm just kidding)

nards656

Canon EOS-300D Rebel

Tamron SP AF 24-135mm f/3.5-5.6 AD Aspherical IF for Canon

02/13/2006 02:20:40 PM · #242

Originally posted by mavrik:

What I want is something objective, like the rest of the rules. None of this "know it when you see it" crud. Give me details - 640x pixels, taken during the submission dates per server time, no cloning, yes you can dodge & burn or NO you can't. none of this "if it creates an element" stuff. Just simple, easy to adhere by rules.

This once existed, before the advent of these darn Advanced Editing rules, in the Classic Rules of DPC. Nobody liked that either. Everybody whined for more freedom. So it was granted. Now we don't seem to like that, either.

Remember, Club asked for suggestions, not problems. They know this is a problem.

Regardless of personal opinions, the SC consists of very intelligent people who really care about the site. Let's give them a chance.

Message edited by ursula - fixed quote.

DjFenzl

02/13/2006 02:21:05 PM · #243

Personally I don't see anything wrong with removing a major element as long as you remove the entire thing.

If this was a photojournalism site I could see it, but it's not so why have the rule.

Now I say only removing objects (not adding) and the entire object because personally I don't want to see this site turn into worth1000 II.

If a person could remove part of a major element then they could remove heads and mouths or whatever making the picture look cheesy. If on the other hand you remove the entire object - a lightstand, a cat, whatever the photo can still easily hold up it's integrity and look very realistic. Do a bad job of removing it and the voters will get you just like they do if you any effect is done badly.

IMO that's the only way we'll ever stop all the bickering about "major elements"

This of course would only apply to advanced editing rules because it would require selections and/or spot editing.

Art Roflmao

Canon EOS-6D Mark II

Fujifilm XF 55-200mm f/3.5-4.8 R LM OIS

02/13/2006 02:22:09 PM · #244

Originally posted by karmat:

(BTW -- that is a blatant lie. I'm just kidding)

Uh huh. I've seen pictures of the opulent SC Lounge! I can just see you all sitting around, sipping your fancy margaritas and voting on DQ's when you are all so drunk on power and tequila you can't even see the images you cast down.

(BTW -- THAT is a blatant lie. We all know you drink dacquiries and martinis.) ;-)

ursula

Fujifilm X-T2

02/13/2006 02:24:00 PM · #245

Originally posted by Art Roflmao:

Originally posted by karmat:
(BTW -- that is a blatant lie. I'm just kidding)

Uh huh. I've seen pictures of the opulent SC Lounge! I can just see you all sitting around, sipping your fancy margaritas and voting on DQ's when you are all so drunk on power and tequila you can't even see the images you cast down.

(BTW -- THAT is a blatant lie. We all know you drink dacquiries and martinis.) ;-)

I only drink white wine.

Canon EF 70-300mm f/4.5-5.6 DO IS USM

02/13/2006 03:45:35 PM · #246

Originally posted by nards656:

Remember, Club asked for suggestions, not problems. They know this is a problem.

I gave my suggestion above. I am responding to what another person said - I already replied to CJ's post. It's a problem my ruleset addresses and glad2be's doesn't. I was pointing out that we'd have the same problem as CJ and SC would like to fix.

~M

cpanaioti

Canon EOS-40D

02/13/2006 03:59:16 PM · #247

Mav,

I think you've outlined what a lot of people have been saying for a long time. However, by adding dodge/burn to basic the incentive to upgrade to a paid membership is gone. Basic should just be an intro to the site and if you want more you have to buy a membership.

1) basic editing as it stands now (with clarifications where needed)
2) advanced editing as it is (with much needed clarifications/restrictions)
3) advanced editing leaning more towards graphic design than photography

I probably haven't been very clear, oh well.

nards656

Canon EOS-300D Rebel

Tamron SP AF 24-135mm f/3.5-5.6 AD Aspherical IF for Canon

02/13/2006 04:10:42 PM · #248

Originally posted by mavrik:

Originally posted by nards656:
Remember, Club asked for suggestions, not problems. They know this is a problem.

I gave my suggestion above. I am responding to what another person said - I already replied to CJ's post. It's a problem my ruleset addresses and glad2be's doesn't. I was pointing out that we'd have the same problem as CJ and SC would like to fix.

~M

Sorry - I misunderstood your point.

BrianR

Canon EOS-5D Mark II