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02/03/2006 12:02:15 PM · #26 |
Originally posted by dahved:
Matthew,
I believe that Christianity, at least, is based on evidence. I don't agree that faith defies evidence--an author who originally tried to disprove Christianity by looking at the evidence (Josh Mcowell) ended up changing his beliefs when the evidence he found ended up supporting what the Bible claims. (See //www.amazon.com/gp/product/0785243631/102-8063061-5890539?v=glance&n=283155 )
When "intolerance, violence and destruction" happen, it is often due to those who are poor representatives of Christianity.
My 2 cents. |
exactly.
The problems mostly arise when people forget what the religion is about and start looking at ways to just use it to their advantage. Like saying "oh it's ok that I stole that (raped her, lied, cheated, etc) cause I'm Christian and Jesus forgives my sin". Or "well those rules applied back in Moses day but things are different now and the Bible doesn't apply like that now." BULL! The Bible was written for all times all people. The situations may appear to have changed but the rules (laws) are still the same and can be applied to all situations, old and new. Too many feel that they are owed or deserve something because of something they went through and will ignore all promptings from God to get what they want.
Christianity is based on Love, love you neighbor, love your parents, love you children , love GOD! Even in the case of mentioned murder, love the sinner not the sin.
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02/03/2006 12:09:49 PM · #27 |
Originally posted by MadMordegon:
Is this the kind of tolerance they teach you? Thats quite a hateful post coming from someone morally superior theSaj.
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I appreciate you questioning the manner in which theSaj argues, Mad, but I would like to comment about that word "tolerance." I don't think tolerance is what I was taught or now see taught at churches, but that there is right and wrong. After all, who decides what is or isn't to be tolerated? I would hope that Christians wouldn't just tolerate those with different beliefs but would show them love and acceptance. Unfortunately, because Christians are imperfect too, that often doesn't happen.
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02/03/2006 12:14:09 PM · #28 |
Originally posted by sabphoto:
The Bible was written for all times all people. The situations may appear to have changed but the rules (laws) are still the same and can be applied to all situations, old and new. |
Hurray! When can we start stoning the adulterers? I've got a big rock in my back yard! |
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02/03/2006 12:18:30 PM · #29 |
this is rant, but its not an unmoderated forum. I've currently hidden a post that contained some very personal attacks. I will unhide this post once I figure out how best to edit it to keep the content but remove the personal attacks. Please REFRAIN from personal attacks in this forum. Let's discuss topics civilly.
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02/03/2006 12:27:04 PM · #30 |
DISAPPOINTED
Frisca, I will PM you regarding the matter. |
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02/03/2006 12:27:50 PM · #31 |
Originally posted by milo655321:
Originally posted by sabphoto:
The Bible was written for all times all people. The situations may appear to have changed but the rules (laws) are still the same and can be applied to all situations, old and new. |
Hurray! When can we start stoning the adulterers? I've got a big rock in my back yard! |
lol classic. Yeah the bible is really timeless. Yet the people who wrote it had no concept of science, how nature, the world or the universe exists or functions. I'm sure that wisdom is really relevant today... |
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02/03/2006 12:29:44 PM · #32 |
I like how the civil posts basically get ignored...
I posted for two years on alt.atheism.org and have to say I never saw things devolve as quickly as they do here... |
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02/03/2006 12:34:15 PM · #33 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
I like how the civil posts basically get ignored...
I posted for two years on alt.atheism.org and have to say I never saw things devolve as quickly as they do here... |
That's (d)evolution arguments for you. |
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02/03/2006 12:41:59 PM · #34 |
I would argue that any large group of people, whether it be political, religious, patriotic, monetary or just behind an idea, generally descend to a lowest common moral value.
It becomes our gang against yours, and we're better than you.
When the gang mentality sets in and people stop thinking for themselves and just accept what they are told, the human race is at it's worst.
When you no longer see the other side as being "people" it's easy to commit horrendous crimes against them because they don't count.
I do believe that most people try to do what is right, if they think about it.
But I don't have a lot of faith in the human race anymore. Not unless something can give them ALL something in common instead of the divisions that I see.
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02/03/2006 12:58:36 PM · #35 |
Originally posted by legalbeagle:
Is it not better to live in wonder at the majesty and complexity of the universe, and be pleased with what we have got, rather than close our eyes and accept the closed and compromised answer provided by religion? |
Perhaps.
However that is not the charge to followers. The charge is to promote the philosophy and values of the Prophet/Savior/God. Promotion is via conversion of the non-believers and it is this conversion process that gets skewed, resulting in apparent mis-deeds.
What is most difficult for the newly "saved" is to temper their zeal. They feel wonderful, cleansed and FORGIVEN. They want everyone to feel the greatness that they feel and are driven to peskily seek out anyone and everyone to share their message. They are sometimes encouraged by their leadership, in an atempt to capitalize on their "fever". The seasoned "believer" knows full well, that the best conversions are accomplished by example. When persons inquire as to "where do you get your inner peace", that this is the opportunity for sharing the enlightenment.
I believe that faith nor religion are the root/s of evil, rather the acquisition of power and leadership. Much good has been done throughout history in the name of faith and religion. Person's have been healed by faith and the helpless helped through numerous religious organizations and their charitable actions. On the other hand, much hatred, destruction and chaos has been sowed, by leaders intent on broadening their base of power. The tenents of their faith have little to do with their actions of war, other than to find justification in the writings.
Whether one chooses to believe or not, is a personal matter. God himself describes it as such. It is a choice that each must make for themselves. If Jesus himself, after performing miracles in the pressence of non-believers couldn't convince a community that he was the messiah, then what power do I have over your choices? I am charged to tell you, but your salvation is with your own choices. I have permission to leave the towns of those that close their doors to the message of my God, and I will stomp the dust off my sandals.
No fight. No animosity.
Your choice.
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02/03/2006 01:00:47 PM · #36 |
God help you ALL !
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02/03/2006 01:03:05 PM · #37 |
Originally posted by pitsaman:
God help you ALL !
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We could use some of his/her help right about now too. He could clear alot of things up. Plus I would love to see that water into wine trick!
Message edited by author 2006-02-03 13:03:44. |
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02/03/2006 01:06:12 PM · #38 |
What a Beautiful photo Pitsaman a new addition to my favorites.
Originally posted by pitsaman:
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02/03/2006 01:16:07 PM · #39 |
Originally posted by MadMordegon:
lol classic. Yeah the bible is really timeless. Yet the people who wrote it had no concept of science, how nature, the world or the universe exists or functions. I'm sure that wisdom is really relevant today... |
You may be correct that the people who wrote the bible had no concept of science, or of how nature, the world or the universe exists or functions.
But, by that statement, you imply that they were more ignorant than modern scientists, who DO know how nature, the world, and the universe exist and function.
So tell me, or provide the links to, scientific papers that explain HOW gravity exists and functions; HOW electricity exists and functions; how magnetism exists and functions; how light exists and functions; how it is that the nucleus of an atom doesn't explode even though it should, being composed of only neutrons and electrons - electrons that should repel each other due to having the same charge.
Observing nature, the world, and the universe - even documenting its workings - doesn't require a concept of science, or of HOW things exist or work. A toddler can tell you about gravity, and magnets, and light.
And the Bible can tell you that "all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist".
The Bible, by the way, DOES contain a lot of descriptions of "natural" phenomena that "scientists" didn't corroborate until centuries later - for example the existence of deep ocean "springs". |
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02/03/2006 01:21:47 PM · #40 |
Too, Dahved, Fstopopen, Madmordegon,
Let me explain...this is not the first time for this thread. In fact, LegalBeagle & a select few others have posted numerous of these type threads.
I am bothered, particularly regarding how the SC handles these threads. LB, can post these attacks and no reaction. However, when I've made similar critical posts, regarding extremism in the islamic society in the middle-east. Like when I made a point that religious extremism is at a much higher level in certain areas of the middle-east. And that it is not just a few rare individuals but closer to 5%. (In fact, I was being very objective in that most of the studies put many regions at 20% and some at 50%.) These users and a few others were always there to denigrate me, call me bigoted, racist, and a multitude of other labels. And that I was completely ludicrous for making such claims. (Unlike most of their anti-religious posts which tend to be based on opinions and rhetoric there in deed were studies to back up my statements. And shall we even approach the topic of the recent landslide election of an extremist terror group that obtained in excess of 50% of the vote in Palestine?)
However, in these cases, I found the SC did nothing to respond to the accusations or names, or labels, or insults. And yes, it degrades to such. They did on occasion respond to my posts, which yes, are 100% politically incorrect...but in deed, have strong factual support and connections.
So, yes, I'm a little bit miffed that the SC is being, IMHO, extremely PC on these rant matters. They will let inflammatory posts like LB that fit a nice politically correct trendiness be posted. And make no action of recourse. And then if I am critical. They'll censor me for personal attacks. However, if I make a post that's politically incorrect they'll let the personal attacks and comments come uncensored on the basis of "he's just getting the result of his words".
------
The issue, is as some of you pointed out, that many of my counter-point arguments were valid. Well, frankly, I know they are. And I'm not coming from a superior position. Just a rational one. We can see that scientific beliefs and understandings such as evolution can lead to horrors just as religion has:
- NAZI's based a lot of their crimes against Jews and humanity on the basis of evolutionary principles, sub-human/uber-human
- Ethnic slavery in America drew much support from evolution as justification
- Pygmy African was put in a zoo as an exhibit demonstrating evolution
My point is this, it doesn't matter whether it is religious or atheistic, it's about dogmatic beliefs and actions. Humanity can be dreadfully evil or wonderfully noble, regardless of religion, lack of religion, etc. It's really about dogmatic beliefs.
Yeah, I know I'm a bit off the handle on this thread. Because I'm tired of LB and a few others constantly posting these inflammatory attack posts every month or so and getting no rebuttle, no chastisement. So is it by point, that as long as one is trendy, PC, and attacks either christianity or religion in general. We'll accept such and just let them repeatedly do so? But if someone makes an untrendy post say against extreme practices of islam or environmentalism. It should be understood since such are politically incorrect topics that it is therefore acceptable to call the poster names and label them as bigot, etc.
I just really want to know why LegalBeagle's form of hate and bigotry is allowed with no recourse? but the SC is often ready to intervene in differing topics?
Message edited by frisca - removed personal references. |
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02/03/2006 01:22:57 PM · #41 |
Originally posted by Ombra_foto:
I would argue that any large group of people, whether it be political, religious, patriotic, monetary or just behind an idea, generally descend to a lowest common moral value.
But I don't have a lot of faith in the human race anymore. Not unless something can give them ALL something in common instead of the divisions that I see. |
Exactly,....
And sadly, I sometimes think it's going to take an invading alien force for us to all accept each other. |
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02/03/2006 01:26:52 PM · #42 |
Originally posted by dahved:
Originally posted by Prof_Fate:
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The boarn agains are amongst the worst. Accept JC as your savior and go to heaven, you don't and well, guess where you go. ... |
I believe there are other organized belief systems also state that only their believers will go to an afterlife. |
And some say you need to know a password and a secret handshake to enter heaven. |
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02/03/2006 01:30:41 PM · #43 |
theSaj you get off easy. I was banned for a month for posting reality in "general discussion".
You personally attacked LB and your tone was that of someone who is frothing at the mouth.
Originally posted by theSaj:
Originally posted by Ombra_foto:
I would argue that any large group of people, whether it be political, religious, patriotic, monetary or just behind an idea, generally descend to a lowest common moral value.
But I don't have a lot of faith in the human race anymore. Not unless something can give them ALL something in common instead of the divisions that I see. |
Exactly,....
And sadly, I sometimes think it's going to take an invading alien force for us to all accept each other. |
I agree an alien force would be a damn good way for us to realize we all have belly buttons.
But I'm sick of hearing people try and equate athiesm as some sort of religion. That is like saying bald is a hair color.
PS you should watch the show we are discussing. I posted a link to download it with bittorrent on page1. |
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02/03/2006 01:35:41 PM · #44 |
Originally posted by MadMordegon:
But I'm sick of hearing people try and equate athiesm as some sort of religion. That is like saying bald is a hair color.
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You didn't get your invitation to the meeting??? Sorry..
It's not? I thought my hair was just going pink...:(
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02/03/2006 01:54:08 PM · #45 |
Been away for a few hours...
Originally posted by HighwayFlower:
Originally posted by Prof_Fate:
With so many religions all preaching the same thing, not all can be right, so all must be wrong. |
That is a very odd argument. |
So if not all are wrong, which one is right? If one is right, then we all need to join up ASAP! Heaven will be a lonely place I suppose.
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Look at your mobster dilemma this way Fate, and it may make more sense. On a relative scale to God, you and I are undifferentiated from the mobster, serial killer, etc. We all fall short of the goal. We all fall short of the goal by a long way. Christianity would say that it isn't about reaching the goal, it's about letting someone else run the race. With that in mind, it's understandable how someone who runs their hardest will not get as far as someone who hands off the baton. |
Your response/argument makes no sense. Our goal is not become god, but to 'be good', 'do good' and follow the rules to get into heaven. What has running hard have to do with this?? You lost me. My argument is the the born agains seem to say 'accpet JC and get into heaven, all will be fogiven' and most live like it too - most of the born agains i have run into are the meanest most back stabbingest people i know. they are the first ones to look down their noses at anyone/everyone.
Originally posted by milo655321:
Originally posted by Prof_Fate:
Each (organized) religion preaches tolerance, acceptance, etc, but none actually practice it. |
I disagree. In regard to most religious texts, tolerance of other religious beliefs or even tolerance of doctrinal deviation are not major tenants and have historically been the basis for state and religious sponsored torture and execution. |
'Do unto others' is a basic tenet of many religions. What is the purpose of missionary work? To kill the non-believers, or to convert them? I don't know of a single religion that is not trying to expand by converting anyone that is a non-member/believer. Even Islam takes converts.
Originally posted by RonB:
Mr. Dawkins, like many, if not most, investigators / documentalists, seems to be unable to separate in his mind, and in his writings, the concepts of faith and religion.
As a perfect example, note how he automatically implies a direct correlation between faith and religion, if not an implied equality, in this statement:
"However, faith appears to be gaining ground on science. This is worrying because, while religions preach morality, peace and hope, in fact religion often appears to result in intolerance, violence and destruction. "
The fact that "FAITH" is gaining ground is worrying because "RELIGION" ... |
faith is a personal thing.
religion is essentially a government - they collect money and tell you what to do, make 'laws' and well, have wars.
Message edited by author 2006-02-03 13:54:22.
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02/03/2006 01:56:27 PM · #46 |
To theSaj,
Thanks for explaining some more. I still think that personal attacks will do nothing beneficial in trying to connect with someone. I'm all for getting at the truth, but it would be so much more effective and respectful to try and make comparisons and explanations without getting too emotional and personal. I know, we're all human, so we have emotions built in, but the challenge is really to try and see what the other's view is and why. Otherwise, I doubt you'll see anyone swayed to your belief system.
To MadMordegon,
I understand your analogy of "bald as a hair color." Perhaps it would be better if it was said that atheism is a belief system instead of a religion. Everyone has a belief system, or worldview--it's what we each use to determine our morality and actions. Can we agree on that?
I'm feeling kind of melancholy today (raining out, tired of dealing with a cell phone bill, blah), and I should get back to work... I hope we can keep exchanging our thoughts without animosity.
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02/03/2006 02:08:13 PM · #47 |
Originally posted by milo655321:
Originally posted by sabphoto:
The Bible was written for all times all people. The situations may appear to have changed but the rules (laws) are still the same and can be applied to all situations, old and new. |
Hurray! When can we start stoning the adulterers? I've got a big rock in my back yard! |
See people making rules to fit themselves...no where does God say "Stone the sinners to death!"
And to the other comment...no the authors of the Bible probably weren't scientist and such but that didn't matter cause the words of the Bible came from God himself, they wrote what He gave them to write.
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02/03/2006 02:14:34 PM · #48 |
Originally posted by sabphoto:
The Bible was written for all times all people. The situations may appear to have changed but the rules (laws) are still the same and can be applied to all situations, old and new. |
The old testament was for the Jews. It is their law, and they sill abide by it.
Jesus gave us the new testament, and with that wiped away all the old laws.
If this is to be believed (if you are christian you do believe this or you're not one) then Jews are not going to be 'saved' when the final judgement comes. Umm..I think the Jews would differ on this.
SO we have one book and it is at odds with itself.
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02/03/2006 02:18:06 PM · #49 |
Originally posted by dahved:
To MadMordegon,
I understand your analogy of "bald as a hair color." Perhaps it would be better if it was said that atheism is a belief system instead of a religion. Everyone has a belief system, or worldview--it's what we each use to determine our morality and actions. Can we agree on that?
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A belief system and worldview yes, we all have to have some version of that.
I think the glairing difference is that if you are religious, you let people and ideas and a very very old book control the way in which you view the world and in how you hold morals and they do this using superstition and promoting faith, which is the absence of logic and reason. They also do this in contradiction to provable science, the observation of the real world. This kind of non-thinking and close mindedness leads to all kinds of bad stuff.
One example on how religion really eff's things up with their ideas; abstinence only sex education.
Let̢۪s use logic for a second and analyze this. We are talking about telling adolescence, many whose role models today are sluts or rappers on MTV and the commercial marketing used on them is largely sexual, whose bodies and minds are going through the largest physical and psychological change in their lives, to completely resist the exact urges those changes are powerfully creating?
It's ridiculous to think that kids will simply not have sex if they are taught only its dangers. To not also teach birth control and other safe sex methods is asking for trouble. It is inevitable that some kids, most kids, will engage in sex before marriage and when they do, they need to know proper contraception and disease prevention.
Also as far as the comments about any large group being worse than the individual, I don't know of any organized atheist groups that have mega churches, don't pay taxes, create huge sums of money and organize and lobby government to have their opinions pushed on everyone else. Especially when those opinions are often time not grounded in reality.
Again, not believing in a religion is not a belief system; it is the absence of a man made organized belief system.
Also, I don't recall ever hearing about atheist suicide bombers who think they will be rewarded with virgins.
Message edited by author 2006-02-03 14:26:50. |
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02/03/2006 02:19:54 PM · #50 |
Originally posted by sabphoto:
the words of the Bible came from God himself, they wrote what He gave them to write. |
Can I see a source to back this claim please? |
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