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DPChallenge Forums >> Tips, Tricks, and Q&A >> Black Black backgrounds
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 01/27/2006 07:50:24 AM · #1
I have dabbled with shooting still lifes and portraits in a studio-like setting, using a black background (either black fabric or black mat board). My problem is, when I look at the photos on my properyly calibrated CRT, I get the nice black background that I want, but if I go to a laptop or other LCD monitor, that background starts to lighten up, becoming grey, and you can see the texture in it. I have seen other photos here on DPC, that I imagine were taken in a similar fashion, but on an LCD still retain the BLACK background.

What is it that I could be doing wrong? I can't show you my latest example, because I'll probably use it in a challenge, but here's an older one that I have that problem:



In this one, it's not so much that the background turns grey on a LCD, but you can begin to see her hair. I don't see it on my CRT or when I print it.


01/27/2006 07:52:31 AM · #2
How far away was the subject to the backdrop?
 01/27/2006 07:54:25 AM · #3
If there's enough contrast between the subject and the background you could always select it with the magic wand and make it black.
 01/27/2006 07:59:33 AM · #4
In the above example, she was sitting on a couch, with black mat board about 18" behind her and a incadescent lamp giving some side light from about 36" away. (I'm estimating those numbers. It's been a while since I shot it.)

Gee I wish I could show you the one I'm having problems with now. It was shot about 12" from the background (black mat board), using a work light set to 250 watts, bounced off of the off-white ceiling about 4' above it. I used a custom white balance.

Here's another example. On an LCD, you can see all of the folds in the fabric, but not on a calibrated CRT.


01/27/2006 08:00:30 AM · #5
Originally posted by orussell:
If there's enough contrast between the subject and the background you could always select it with the magic wand and make it black.


Is that legal for basic editing? Advanced editing?
 01/27/2006 08:02:41 AM · #6
Originally posted by larryslights:
Originally posted by orussell:
If there's enough contrast between the subject and the background you could always select it with the magic wand and make it black.


Is that legal for basic editing? Advanced editing?


Definitely not for open challenges but I'm not sure about Member Challenges.
 01/27/2006 08:05:15 AM · #7
I don't find matt board the best background try some black material dyed calico or I've even used black velvet. Get some distance between your subject and backdrop it looks like you have some light coming through.
 01/27/2006 08:09:23 AM · #8
Like keegbow says, you need distance between your subject and background. Enough that your subject get's light and your background doesn't. If you can see the background texture, then there's too much light on it.
 01/27/2006 08:12:07 AM · #9
Thanks keegbow. I used that mat board because I was having the problem with the fabric (seeing the ripples). The fabric I am using is a "broadcloth". After I bought that, I've read that I should use felt or velvet.

It kind of important that I get this all figured out, not for DPC Challenge score reasons (although that would be nice), but because I need to start shooting my daughter's art portfolio soon. The recommendations I've read for that (after buying the broadcloth) was felt or velvet, and to shoot outdoors on an overcast day. But unfortunately, our weekends have either been sunny or overcast and too darn cold.
 01/27/2006 08:12:59 AM · #10
More distance. I will try that this weekend.

Thanks. I really want to learn to do all of this stuff right.

Message edited by author 2006-01-27 08:13:50.
 01/27/2006 08:31:27 AM · #11
Thanks for this thread, Larry! I use two LCD monitors - one is my "Christmas present to self" 21" widescreen Gateway (good deal at Costco) and the other is a 17" LG. On the Gateway, I see what you see on a CRT - it's not 'til I drag the picture to the LG that I can see what you're talking about as far as folds in fabric or backgrounds. So in essence, you've shown me that my Gateway is nicely calibrated!

01/27/2006 08:40:02 AM · #12
Yeah, I try to never do my voting on LCDs. It would be interesting (but close to impossible to track), the average scores given from CRT and LCD using voters.
 01/27/2006 09:04:23 AM · #13
Originally posted by orussell:
Originally posted by larryslights:
Originally posted by orussell:
If there's enough contrast between the subject and the background you could always select it with the magic wand and make it black.


Is that legal for basic editing? Advanced editing?


Definitely not for open challenges but I'm not sure about Member Challenges.


I've used black poster board and sometimes large project paper (basically 24x36 construction paper from art's & craft's or Walmart stores).

There are several ways to get the black a bit truer in basic editing. A slight adjustment in curves (my preferred) or levels can darken the background a notch or two. Setting black/white points can also do it for you. Bumping the contrast a couple of points will also deepen the black (watch the whites so they don't blow out).

In advanced editing the same methods can work as well but by selecting the background you're only applying the adjustment to the specific areas/colors you want (keeping the subject matter untouched).

BTW - The same methods can be applied to solid white backgrounds as well.

If you are going to do this alot you might find it useful to build an inexpensive light tent (pvc pipe and sheets). There are numerous links out there on how to build one for just a few dollars.

Good luck! ;^)
 01/27/2006 09:07:30 AM · #14
Use a slight "S" -curve. I regularly use it to make my black backgrounds come out "black black". All decent software include the Curves tool.
 01/27/2006 09:27:57 AM · #15
Originally posted by glad2badad:

If you are going to do this alot you might find it useful to build an inexpensive light tent (pvc pipe and sheets). There are numerous links out there on how to build one for just a few dollars.

Good luck! ;^)


Light Tent
Here's Bill Huber's tent instructions from pbase.
 01/27/2006 09:32:23 AM · #16
I've used the tool, "Selective Color" in Photoshop. You can adjust just the blacks and make them darker. Because it is a global treatment, I believe it is legal in Basic Editing.
 01/27/2006 09:53:58 AM · #17
One way to check is to push your levels to the light side to see if there is any variance in the black tones. I use this method on all my black backgrounds. This way, if someone's monitor is lighter than mine, I will see what they see. Its also a good way to spot lint and dust...

Oh, and for a white background I do the opposite.
 01/27/2006 10:18:16 AM · #18
I believe this is what you are looking for. You need to register but I bought his book a while back and you can get it all here for free.

//www.shootsmarter.com/infocenter/cg001.html
 01/27/2006 10:24:02 AM · #19
Originally posted by rebelgirl:
I believe this is what you are looking for. You need to register but I bought his book a while back and you can get it all here for free.

//www.shootsmarter.com/infocenter/cg001.html


This is a great article, called Black on black. Has pictures to demonstrate light placement.
 01/27/2006 10:25:23 AM · #20
Originally posted by twm122:
Originally posted by rebelgirl:
I believe this is what you are looking for. You need to register but I bought his book a while back and you can get it all here for free.

//www.shootsmarter.com/infocenter/cg001.html


This is a great article, called Black on black. Has pictures to demonstrate light placement.


to make url work
 01/27/2006 10:32:15 AM · #21
Originally posted by Melethia:
So in essence, you've shown me that my Gateway is nicely calibrated!

I'm no expert but this doesn't make sense to me at all.

If your monitor isn't calibrated properly, you loose out on seeing all the detail you should. Therefore, in MY opinion, you would see the shadow details (creases, ripples etc) on the BETTER monitor, the one that is actually calibrated properly.
 01/28/2006 02:37:53 AM · #22
Originally posted by Beetle:
Originally posted by Melethia:
So in essence, you've shown me that my Gateway is nicely calibrated!

I'm no expert but this doesn't make sense to me at all.

If your monitor isn't calibrated properly, you loose out on seeing all the detail you should. Therefore, in MY opinion, you would see the shadow details (creases, ripples etc) on the BETTER monitor, the one that is actually calibrated properly.

Agreed! The 8-bit tonal range goes from 0 (black) to 255 (white), if you can't see the difference in all of them your monitor is not showing you the full scale. Granted, not all monitors are capable of showing the full scale, but all should be capable of showing the difference between a number in the mid-teens to one in the mid-twenties -- that's a fairly large gap. That, btw, is the difference between the creases (clearly visible) in the background of the paint picture. The background (from running the cursor over it in PS) doesn't get below 10, and no where near 0 -- it is a dark grey, not black, and there is quite a bit of variance that should be at least fainly visible.

It's the monitor that can't see the differences in tone that should be calibrated ... or replaced. Ok, so replaced may be a bit much for a hobby site -- but it should at least be recognized that it isn't showing the full range of tones.

Even if your monitor can't show it, watching the 'info' window in PS while moving the cursor over the background can help find the 'hidden' light areas.

David
 01/28/2006 02:42:43 AM · #23
A good test of how black your black is come when you open it in Paintshop Pro/Photoshop and run the eye dropper over your background. If it shows 0,0,0 you 100% black and nothing else

Brett
 01/28/2006 04:28:21 AM · #24


Black velvet is the stuff, it dosent show a creases very easily and eats up light. I got mine at $2/ yard at an upolstry outlet after looking at $24/yard at a fabric store. It isn't sliky smooth, but couch quality photgraphs the same way that dress quality does, for a lot less money, and it comes in six foot wide rolls.

Push the distance between the subject & backround far enough to avoid spilling light on the BG, and use a snoot or baffle if you have to.

One easy way to get the black black in basic editing is with levels, just pull that slider in untill all those blacks look black, and push the midtones back where they belong, not elegant, but it is good enough for a 640 pixel web shot.
 01/28/2006 04:29:54 AM · #25
Fabric backdrops: Black Velvet is definitely the best I've used. Especially with flash. All the "bristles" really soak up extra light.

Edit: too slow!

Message edited by author 2006-01-28 04:30:33.
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