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01/16/2006 07:52:57 AM · #26 |
Originally posted by HBunch:
The photos with 'fake' DOF will not be DQed simply because the DOF was achieved pp, since the DOF part was in the challenge description, which is seperate from the rules. |
But you would be EDITING your photo in order to make it fit the challenge. That would be no different than creating rain for the rain challenge in order to make it fit the challenge. For that challenge, we were all told that we could not add the rain to make it fit the challenge...how's this different?
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01/16/2006 08:07:50 AM · #27 |
Originally posted by dpaull:
Originally posted by HBunch:
The photos with 'fake' DOF will not be DQed simply because the DOF was achieved pp, since the DOF part was in the challenge description, which is seperate from the rules. |
But you would be EDITING your photo in order to make it fit the challenge. That would be no different than creating rain for the rain challenge in order to make it fit the challenge. For that challenge, we were all told that we could not add the rain to make it fit the challenge...how's this different? |
Site Council's position is that we decide major elements without regard to the challenge topic. As such, the fact that DOF is critical to this challenge does not mean that it would be considered a major element here if it is not considered a major element in other challenges.
The rule of thumb that we use is to imagine a typical person (not a photographer) describing each photo (as if they had never seen the other, not in comparison) to someone who has never seen it. If the edit changes the description significantly, a major element was probably added or removed. If the description doesn't change, then it probably wasn't.
~Terry
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01/16/2006 08:09:55 AM · #28 |
Originally posted by riot:
Originally posted by Joey Lawrence:
This background blurring was done with PS :-)
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There's a quite obvious giveaway halo of sharpness just past the edge of the santa hat :P |
Isolation using a tele at wide apertures will do that under some circumstances at times, especially in areas of high contrast. It was noticeable in Joey's picture at first glance and some smoothing could have improved that. I don't think it detracted too much from the image though.
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01/16/2006 08:11:08 AM · #29 |
Originally posted by ClubJuggle:
Site Council's position is that we decide major elements without regard to the challenge topic. As such, the fact that DOF is critical to this challenge does not mean that it would be considered a major element here if it is not considered a major element in other challenges.
The rule of thumb that we use is to imagine a typical person (not a photographer) describing each photo (as if they had never seen the other, not in comparison) to someone who has never seen it. If the edit changes the description significantly, a major element was probably added or removed. If the description doesn't change, then it probably wasn't.
~Terry |
I understand your point, but I'm having a hard time understanding how adding rain (in a challenge where rain makes it fit the challenge) is any less of a 'major element' than adding a shallow DOF (where that shallow DOF makes it fit the challenge). Know what I'm saying?
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01/16/2006 08:26:08 AM · #30 |
Originally posted by dpaull:
Originally posted by ClubJuggle:
Site Council's position is that we decide major elements without regard to the challenge topic. As such, the fact that DOF is critical to this challenge does not mean that it would be considered a major element here if it is not considered a major element in other challenges.
The rule of thumb that we use is to imagine a typical person (not a photographer) describing each photo (as if they had never seen the other, not in comparison) to someone who has never seen it. If the edit changes the description significantly, a major element was probably added or removed. If the description doesn't change, then it probably wasn't.
~Terry |
I understand your point, but I'm having a hard time understanding how adding rain (in a challenge where rain makes it fit the challenge) is any less of a 'major element' than adding a shallow DOF (where that shallow DOF makes it fit the challenge). Know what I'm saying? |
Your missing the point. Regardless of the challenge, rain will almost always be considered a major element and blurring a background or foreground unless it it blurred to the point of totally obscuring a major element will almost never be.
If you had a hamburger you were about to eat, removing the ketchup would be a major change, but just smearing it around would not.
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01/16/2006 08:27:40 AM · #31 |
Wow... I thought I read about this in a forum last week. I'm glad they are not DQing for PP DOF. If it was not done well, it will reflect in the scoring. If it was done well, I'm sure it took a great deal of time and skill.
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01/16/2006 08:30:32 AM · #32 |
Originally posted by dpaull:
I understand your point, but I'm having a hard time understanding how adding rain (in a challenge where rain makes it fit the challenge) is any less of a 'major element' than adding a shallow DOF (where that shallow DOF makes it fit the challenge). Know what I'm saying? |
I totally understand what you're saying, and to a certain extent (speaking personally) I agree with it. The difference is that rain would probably be considered a major element in any photo, whether the challenge was rain or not. A viewer looking at that hypothetical photo in isolation, without benefit of the challenge topic, would likely use the word "rain" (or raining, etc) in describing the photograph. With depth of field, that's less likely to be the case. For better or worse, we tend to be more liberal with abstract concepts than physical objects when it comes to the major elements rule.
~Terry
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01/16/2006 09:21:28 AM · #33 |
The point and shoot owner argument is even better than my first position. It is the FAIR and GENEROUS way to go about it. Rules across the board, are fair based on equality. Let's be courteous and encouraging to those with "weaker cameras".
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01/16/2006 09:30:43 AM · #34 |
Originally posted by dpaull:
...I'm having a hard time understanding how adding rain (in a challenge where rain makes it fit the challenge) is any less of a 'major element' than adding a shallow DOF (where that shallow DOF makes it fit the challenge). Know what I'm saying? |
Not meeting the challenge isn't grounds for DQ, so whether the editing makes the photo fit or not has no bearing on its legality. Thus, you can shift the color of a banana to make it fit a "Pink" challenge and it could be legal. Major elements are determined purely by comparing the entry to the original. If a significant object has been added or removed, then it's probably major (note that color and blur are not objects). |
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01/16/2006 10:03:13 AM · #35 |
Well, thanks to this thread I just got a comment that my DOF is fake...which is most certainly is NOT. Thanks y'all.
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01/16/2006 10:03:15 AM · #36 |
Poor PP (not only with edges or halos) is a give away but also when the "plane" of focus is incorrect. It takes my subconscious a minute to translate it to my conscious but I know something is "off" in the image.
No need to DQ, the voting will tell.
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01/16/2006 10:12:10 AM · #37 |
Originally posted by laurielblack:
Well, thanks to this thread I just got a comment that my DOF is fake...which is most certainly is NOT. Thanks y'all. |
I agree Laurie. I hope people don't foolishly go out on witch hunts here and make the wrong call. Too easy to make a mistake and if you're wrong...you may have just screwed someone with a lot of talent.
bad move...
Message edited by author 2006-01-16 10:12:48. |
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01/16/2006 10:13:09 AM · #38 |
Originally posted by Beach_mel:
Poor PP (not only with edges or halos) is a give away but also when the "plane" of focus is incorrect. It takes my subconscious a minute to translate it to my conscious but I know something is "off" in the image.
No need to DQ, the voting will tell. |
Be very cautious with this. In Basic Editing challenges we have received DQ requests for fake DOF when the plane of focus was apparently incorrect (in Basic, this would be illegal for selective editing). In most cases the original file showed that the same blur and plane of focus were present in the original.
~Terry
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01/16/2006 10:29:01 AM · #39 |
Originally posted by Joey Lawrence:
If it's done right, then we shouldn't know it is a fake DOF. :-D
I'm with my old point and shoot buddies, photoshop is the way to go. I didn't enter the challenge, but I'd rather have a version with everything in focus that I can use for other things, and a specific edit for the challenge.
This background blurring was done with PS :-)
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Very nice photo but I think the biggest giveaway is that the out of focus blur doesn´t change with distance to the object in the background.
I understand that there are two different levels of blur for the imediate background and the background further away.
I agree with everybody that think it should be ok to create artificial blur.
In basic nobody would argue if you choose to blur the entire image, in advanced its allowed to do this selective! Whats the problem. |
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01/16/2006 10:52:39 AM · #40 |
Originally posted by scalvert:
Not meeting the challenge isn't grounds for DQ, so whether the editing makes the photo fit or not has no bearing on its legality. Thus, you can shift the color of a banana to make it fit a "Pink" challenge and it could be legal. Major elements are determined purely by comparing the entry to the original. If a significant object has been added or removed, then it's probably major (note that color and blur are not objects). |
I think this is the first time I've read an explaination of this and understood it. So, major "element" isn't about elements, its about objects. Picturing overlaying 2 images to find differences works better for me than describing the major elements of the picture. Because if I saw a picture of a pink banana, I certainly wouldn't describe it to someone as just a banana, pink would definately be in my description to them.
Thanks Scalvert... while I don't completely agree, at least I finally understand. :) |
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01/16/2006 11:17:07 AM · #41 |
Originally posted by kteach:
So, major "element" isn't about elements, it's about objects. |
That's probably a better explanation. Color shifts are allowed as the objects themselves don't change, and effects (blurs, filters, etc.) have been allowed as long as they don't obscure or add a significant object in the process. Using a Liquify filter to distort an object is riskier than modifying the DOF. |
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01/16/2006 11:17:27 AM · #42 |
Originally posted by kteach:
Thanks Scalvert... while I don't completely agree, at least I finally understand. :) |
personally, i don't agree either. and i'm trying to keep the debate about such things alive within the SC. :/ |
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01/16/2006 11:20:09 AM · #43 |
Originally posted by muckpond:
personally, i don't agree either. |
What it is and what it should be is certainly open to debate, but "objects" generally agrees with past validations IMO, and is easier to understand. |
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01/16/2006 11:24:46 AM · #44 |
Originally posted by scalvert:
..."objects" generally agrees with past validations IMO, and is easier to understand. |
yes, but "objects" doesn't cover the full gamut of what can be an "element," as evidenced by these two recent DQs:
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01/16/2006 11:32:41 AM · #45 |
| It's an oversimplification perhaps, but the background lines were an added "thing" on the first shot (the subject wasn't blurred, and original background was blank), and the line shapes were added on the second. In both cases, new details/shapes were added in post-processing as opposed to a color shift or moderate blur that modifies what's already present without removing other objects or creating something new. |
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01/16/2006 11:33:42 AM · #46 |
hmmmm.
I understand (or at least I think I do) what is and what is not allowed.
I'm just not sure I agree that blurring the background is not affecting a major element. If two images are considered and one has a distracting element in the BG and the other does not. If the Post processing of both involves using the same blur on the BG, would one be eligible for DQ and the other not, simply because a distracting BG object was obscured and in the other it was not?
I still have a hard time with color not being an element. I don't necessarily have a problem with removing color, or tweaking it, but taking an object and completely changing the color doesn't seem to be with in the rules, nor does just painting in color where none was before (like in EddyG's smoke shot) especially if color is part of the challenge theme.
I know there's a difference between my opinion and what is accepted, but I still think there is an inconsistency between the rules as written and what is actually allowable.
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01/16/2006 11:39:06 AM · #47 |
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
If two images are considered and one has a distracting element in the BG and the other does not. If the Post processing of both involves using the same blur on the BG, would one be eligible for DQ and the other not, simply because a distracting BG object was obscured and in the other it was not? |
If the obscured object was a significant thing in the original, then it will be DQ'd. If it was just a minor distraction (a small lens flare or telephone wire, for example), then that's OK. |
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01/16/2006 11:54:18 AM · #48 |
Most of the blurring of that was done in PS. And it did pretty good...
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01/16/2006 11:59:06 AM · #49 |
Originally posted by scalvert:
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
If two images are considered and one has a distracting element in the BG and the other does not. If the Post processing of both involves using the same blur on the BG, would one be eligible for DQ and the other not, simply because a distracting BG object was obscured and in the other it was not? |
If the obscured object was a significant thing in the original, then it will be DQ'd. If it was just a minor distraction (a small lens flare or telephone wire, for example), then that's OK. |
How is the significance determined?
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01/16/2006 11:59:18 AM · #50 |
And Stare, I could tell that was done in PS. But more credit to you for not letting the voters either see it or care. Personal preferences abound on this site, but eventually popular vote is the ultimate judge.
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