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DPChallenge Forums >> Web Site Suggestions >> What is the purpose of Basic Editing limitations?
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 01/07/2006 09:58:48 PM · #1
Just wondering about this... and maybe it will generate some discussion.

Personally I feel the rules are unnecessary and hinder creativity. Of course they create incentive to subscribe, to get the "privilege" of editing at your personal discretion in "advanced" challenges, but I think there comes a time when a photographic community should put artistic freedom (in both capture and post-processing) ahead of business revenue. Unless of course we are simply here to help this site make money, rather than share and enjoy the art of photography.

Since challenge themes are so diverse, I think they attract and generate enough variety on their own - with regards to the type of photographs entered, from differences in capture to differences in post-processing – and there is no real need for the further segregation of images into lightly manipulated and heavily manipulated, as it were. This is after all a site for digital photography, a medium with seemingly endless amounts of opportunity and creativity for all photographers to indulge in...

Keeping certain challenges and themes open only to subscribers sounds more than reasonable, but limiting the artistic freedoms of those who won̢۪t or cannot subscribe with rules doesn̢۪t seem right to me.

What are your thoughts? What is the site's outlook on this?
 01/07/2006 10:02:08 PM · #2
It is also a business.
 01/07/2006 10:03:22 PM · #3
It also enforces photographic technique rather than relying on computer skills.
 01/07/2006 10:12:00 PM · #4
Originally posted by fotomann_forever:
It also enforces photographic technique rather than relying on computer skills.


So the digital darkroom (computer) doesn't require photographic technique? Does post-processing not require as much knowledge as capture, if it is to be done properly, if at all?
 01/07/2006 10:14:05 PM · #5
ditto.. I think this way it makes you work harder to take a better photograph rather than take an average photo and then fix it up ont he computer. After all it is a photography challenge rather than a desktop publishing challenge.
 01/07/2006 10:17:38 PM · #6
Basic Editing allows ...
- New people to come in with good creative photographic skills and compete on an even level with more experienced users
- It forces member users to not rely on highly-developed PhotoShop skills, but get right in-camera.

It doesn't have anything to do with creativity. Creativity comes from the use of light, composition, ideas and risk-taking. Advanced editing sometimes masks short-comings in those skills.

Since this is a photographic site and not a digital art site (there are planty of those elsewhere) the creativity required is photographic, not computer - which is essentially what Advanced Editing is.

Brett

Message edited by author 2006-01-07 22:22:40.
 01/07/2006 10:21:43 PM · #7
Originally posted by KiwiPix:
Creativity comes from the use of light, composition, ideas and risk-taking. Advanced editing sometimes masks short-comings in those skills. Brett

excellent point. well said.
 01/07/2006 10:21:53 PM · #8
Originally posted by mattvardy:
So the digital darkroom (computer) doesn't require photographic technique? Does post-processing not require as much knowledge as capture, if it is to be done properly, if at all?


I can make a turd look like a supermodel given enough freedom. If we were given free reign with Photoshop, I could sell my camera.

I'm going to have to side with the basic rules on this. There are plenty of sites that allow you to show your Photoshop skills.
 01/07/2006 10:25:55 PM · #9
I know the Basic Editing rules have forced me to take a much closer look at my backgrounds. I can't rely on cloning to take out a distracting spot or line, as I can with photo entries elsewhere. It's a little frustrating, but I have learned from it!
I'm not a paying member yet, but will probably join sometime soon.
 01/07/2006 10:27:54 PM · #10
I like the fact that there are both types of challenges. I am fairly new to digtal photography and even newer to trying to use Photoshop (I have Elements 3.0) and I feel that the limitations gives me a chance to enter my pictures, get feedback (hopefully to help me improve) and learn without feeling completely intimidated by digitally created or enhanced images I cannot hope to match. If that was the case, I doubt I would participate here. Members do have the option of submitting in challenges that do allow such manipulations. If you prefer to create such images (and perhaps I will learn more of that too), you do have an outlet as well. You would have considerably fewer members and participants if the Basic Editing rules were removed. This is a great place to learn and be inspired. I hope it stays that way. It is a great learning experience and even with the rules, you get extremely high quality images- even without much digital help.
 01/26/2006 10:14:09 PM · #11
For what it's worth, I believe in Basic Editing, but I think it's ludicrous that the advanced/basic line falls along the open/member line. There should be both challenges for both groups.

I also think it's silly that we can't remove sensor dust in Basic Editing. It's expensive to get sensor cleaning stuff, and it's not always 100% effective. I just paid $60 to have my sensor professionally cleaned, and not even a week later it has more spots. It's ridiculous that I can't enter a great photo in a basic editing challenge because I know it'll get reamed for having dust. I can understand not wanting people to remove actual objects that were there, like poles or trash or something, but as long as we don't disrupt the integrity of the image, I just don't understand why that isn't allowed.
 01/26/2006 10:19:54 PM · #12
Originally posted by fotomann_forever:


I can make a turd look like a supermodel given enough freedom. If we were given free reign with Photoshop, I could sell my camera.

I'm going to have to side with the basic rules on this. There are plenty of sites that allow you to show your Photoshop skills.


I just love your visuals fotoman .. scary as they are ...

Kari
 01/26/2006 10:23:38 PM · #13
I personally like the idea of having a basic editing category. It makes you think more of the photographic process than the post processes. I also think that having advanced editing open challenges is a good idea, not just restricting them to members. I really don't have any quarrels with the basic editing rules--but they should also apply to raw mode. I realize that people will always try to push the envelope but that's why we have the sc to help keep everyone honest.
 01/26/2006 10:28:33 PM · #14
Do constraints and restrictions constrain and restrict creativity, or does the wide open, blank page of possibility constrain and restrict creativity more ?

Which is better for your creative process, too much choice, or too little ?
 01/26/2006 10:30:07 PM · #15
Originally posted by kari1:
Originally posted by fotomann_forever:


I can make a turd look like a supermodel given enough freedom. If we were given free reign with Photoshop, I could sell my camera.

I'm going to have to side with the basic rules on this. There are plenty of sites that allow you to show your Photoshop skills.


I just love your visuals fotoman .. scary as they are ...

Kari


LOL... thank ya... I pride myself in visuals that "stick" :-)
 01/26/2006 10:39:38 PM · #16
Originally posted by fotomann_forever:


...make a turd look like a supermodel given enough freedom...


------------------
Now there's a challenge suggestion! Eep!
 01/26/2006 10:41:38 PM · #17
Originally posted by Gordon:
Do constraints and restrictions constrain and restrict creativity, or does the wide open, blank page of possibility constrain and restrict creativity more ?

Which is better for your creative process, too much choice, or too little ?


This is a good point - the possibility of being crippled by excessive options is very real.

This is also aside from the face that Basic Editing rules simply impose a challenge - which to me is the whole point.
01/26/2006 10:45:32 PM · #18
Originally posted by mffnqueen:
For what it's worth, I believe in Basic Editing, but I think it's ludicrous that the advanced/basic line falls along the open/member line. There should be both challenges for both groups.


There are. Look at the currently voted on open challenges...

Originally posted by mffnqueen:
It's ridiculous that I can't enter a great photo in a basic editing challenge because I know it'll get reamed for having dust.


Give the voters a little credit...



The white spot on his head is really a grey hair that drove me nuts. I had a couple of people say something in the comments. However I truly believe that the voters understood that in a basic editing challenge you have to overlook a few flaws. I know I won't mark down for something that can not be taken care of in basic editing. I may comment but won't vote down.

Edit to add another example:



Once again I got comments on hot pixels, but with a 6.396 average, no 1 or 2's I think the voters overlooked it...

Message edited by author 2006-01-26 22:49:22.
 01/26/2006 10:57:39 PM · #19
Originally posted by KiwiPix:
Basic Editing allows ...
- New people to come in with good creative photographic skills and compete on an even level with more experienced users
- It forces member users to not rely on highly-developed PhotoShop skills, but get right in-camera.

It doesn't have anything to do with creativity. Creativity comes from the use of light, composition, ideas and risk-taking. Advanced editing sometimes masks short-comings in those skills.

Since this is a photographic site and not a digital art site (there are planty of those elsewhere) the creativity required is photographic, not computer - which is essentially what Advanced Editing is.

Brett


This is a great explanation!
 01/26/2006 11:15:08 PM · #20
i believe too many choices can be stifling to answer Gordon. It sometimes is a blessing to have a focus that is given in limited options. And I am not necessarily talking about photography at all. But it does apply there as well.

But it is great to maximize photos with advanced as well.
 01/26/2006 11:45:44 PM · #21
Originally posted by mattvardy:
Just wondering about this... and maybe it will generate some discussion.

Personally I feel the rules are unnecessary and hinder creativity. Of course they create incentive to subscribe, to get the "privilege" of editing at your personal discretion in "advanced" challenges, but I think there comes a time when a photographic community should put artistic freedom (in both capture and post-processing) ahead of business revenue. Unless of course we are simply here to help this site make money, rather than share and enjoy the art of photography.

Since challenge themes are so diverse, I think they attract and generate enough variety on their own - with regards to the type of photographs entered, from differences in capture to differences in post-processing – and there is no real need for the further segregation of images into lightly manipulated and heavily manipulated, as it were. This is after all a site for digital photography, a medium with seemingly endless amounts of opportunity and creativity for all photographers to indulge in...

Keeping certain challenges and themes open only to subscribers sounds more than reasonable, but limiting the artistic freedoms of those who won̢۪t or cannot subscribe with rules doesn̢۪t seem right to me.

What are your thoughts? What is the site's outlook on this?

This site was started to provide a place for people to learn and teach digital photography to each other. And despite many people's efforts to change it's direction I thank the powers that be for keeping it true to it's original mission. The Basic rules challenges were the only kind we had in the beginning. If you are already accomplished in the use of photo editing software and are looking for an outlet for your creativity you can enjoy the site; and you are most welcome because you can help others by sharing you expertise; but you do not fall into the group that will gain the most from being here.

Beginners are intimidated by all the power of modern photo editing programs. They need a place to start their learning process. And there are others of us who have been at it for some time and just don't care for all the manipulations available in the Advanced ruleset, prefering to keep our editing simple while we strive to get better and better images out of our cameras.

This site is not (and I hope it never becomes) a "playground for artists". It is more like a school - elementary thru college level, but maybe not post-graduate. And the challenges are the device we use to keep ourselves motivated and to measure our progress.
01/26/2006 11:46:32 PM · #22
I have been thinking on this for years.

I don't know if I have an answer about the question of post processing for me yet..much less an answer that will speak for all.

However, consider this.

When I am out shooting or even in a studio...I have a general idea of what I want to achieve. I try to reach for it. I compose my shot. I look for the light. I think about the possible end results.

But...when I get back to the computer and take those images from my camera..away from that 2" LCD screen and onto a wide screen...where I can look at the scene in a quite moment in my own room...in my own world..sometimes things are clearer.

Sometimes there is some magic...deep in the shadows and highlights, not just laying out in the open. It may slowly reveal itself to me or maybe it hits me all at once like a lightning bolt. But often the magic is there waiting for me to discover it.

And, with the right tools...you can dive into that magic..find that spark that you know is there..under the shadows and hidden in the highlights.

How do you, the photographer, see something that might not be apparent to others?

Because you were there...and the critics and the pundits were not.

If you have the tools at your disposal to reach in and pull that magic out that may not be apparent in a raw digital negative from the camera...who is to say that is not as much about photography as the mechanical click of a shutter?

I know Ansel Adams name gets thrown around a lot in discussions like this. But in his day...when he peered into his photos and those secrets revealed themselves to him and he used the tools of his day to pull that essence out of the moment that he KNEW was hidden..because he was there...was that not photography?

I think it was.

I agree with the op. Photography doesn't begin and end with a shutter release. Of course the basics of photography is important. The technique of exposure and composition. But, if that is all we can teach new photographers today I think we are missing a lot of special moments hidden in those digital negatives and hindering a lot of special talent.

When new chemicals and darkroom procedures evolved, photographers used them and didn't argue that was not photography. Digital darkroom skills are about photography too.
 01/27/2006 02:10:31 AM · #23
Originally posted by hokie:
I have been thinking on this for years. ...

Scott, I couldn't agree with you more.

To add my own perspective to what you said -- I don't care what the camera sees. It is an inanimate object, with no creativity-no vision-no life to share with anyone. It will dutifully capture every photon that comes it's way, but it knows nothing of what those photons represent.

I want to photograph what I see -- not what my camera does. Post-processing is how I develop what the camera saw into what I saw in the scene. And this can all be accomplished without loosing track of what photography is.

David

Message edited by author 2006-01-27 02:11:34.
 01/27/2006 03:02:40 AM · #24
This is what the scene looked like when I was there. It's a file of the raw scan.



This is what I had envisioned...and what I had to deliver to the client.



01/27/2006 03:17:42 AM · #25
Originally posted by coolhar:
And there are others of us who have been at it for some time and just don't care for all the manipulations available in the Advanced ruleset, prefering to keep our editing simple while we strive to get better and better images out of our cameras.

No offense, harvey, but I see you frequently posting the "purist" type position, yet you yourself use advanced editing (and quite well, obviously).

Originally posted by coolhar editing description:
Processing: rotate to correct titled horizon, crop, clone to remove several minor imperfections, retouch tool to darken some of the brightest areas, despeckle, edge preserving smooth, adjust color balance, contrast and saturation, clarify, downsize, sharpen, add border, export as jpg optimizing to 150, all done in PSP 7.


Just seems disingenuous.

Message edited by author 2006-01-27 03:18:03.
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