| Author | Thread |
|
|
08/13/2002 03:00:37 PM · #26 |
one more time(maybe I'm stupid) in photoshop- image-adjustments-selective color-removing or adding color to a color- OK or not?
|
|
|
|
08/13/2002 03:16:48 PM · #27 |
I like the rules best exactly how they are now.
The things which are necessary to struggle with digital photography (contrast, colors etc) are allowed and the things which make a photo less a photo and more a digital art image are disallowed. And that's how I like it. I want to improve my skills as a photographer here and my Gimp/Photoshop/whatever skills. There are other websites for that purpose.
|
|
|
|
08/13/2002 03:39:45 PM · #28 |
Please keep in mind that not all of us can afford Photoshop. I don't have Curves in Elements. If I can't edit individual channels in Levels, I'm pretty much unable to color correct or do a decent conversion to black and white.
|
|
|
|
08/13/2002 03:49:25 PM · #29 |
Originally posted by Amphian:
Please keep in mind that not all of us can afford Photoshop.
I don't have Curves in Elements. If I can't edit individual channels
in Levels, I'm pretty much unable to color correct or do a decent
conversion to black and white.
As has been discussed quite a few times there are many free or cheap
equivalent packages (E.g., The Gimp which is certainly available for
windows and linux, dunno about Mac) and Paint Shop Pro (shareware/ cheap)
and quite a large handful of others.
|
|
|
|
08/13/2002 03:51:42 PM · #30 |
Originally posted by Journey:
I'm sorry but I feel that allowing playing with individual channels gets into the realm of manipulation.
If the rules say WHOLE IMAGE they should also say ALL CHANNELS ONLY.
The matter of whether you can police it, should not be an issue for allowing it or not. I presume most of us work on the honor system. And if you really want to cheat, say with Photoshop editing, you could get away with it anyway. That's really not that hard to do.
My two cents and I ain't making the rules here :)
The problem with this is I can quite easily manipulate individual channels
in my camera. Is that allowed ? If not, why not - after all it is
just a camera feature. NB. I am referring to setting a custom white
balance - all digital cameras do this. Many just do it automatically,
in the same way they automatically set aperture/ shutter speed. If
you think this isn't allowed, then perhaps we should all use our cameras
in full automatic mode, at the lowest possible resolution settings ?
After all, that would be the only way to be fair ?
|
|
|
|
08/13/2002 03:57:56 PM · #31 |
Originally posted by GordonMcGregor:
Paint Shop Pro (shareware/ cheap)
Sorry, but I don't consider $110 cheap.
* This message has been edited by the author on 8/13/2002 4:00:23 PM. |
|
|
|
08/13/2002 04:23:50 PM · #32 |
| $110 may not be cheap but compared to the $600+ for the full version of Photoshop it doesnt seem too bad. |
|
|
|
08/13/2002 04:28:30 PM · #33 |
Compared to $69 for Elements, it's not so good either. :-)
|
|
|
|
08/13/2002 10:09:07 PM · #34 |
Originally posted by Amphian:
Compared to $69 for Elements, it's not so good either. :-)
Try $10-5 for Photoshop LE or FREE for the Gimp (as good as photoshop 5.5)
I personally used the Gimp for about a year on the PC.. I went though some really buggy releases... but I hear it's a bit better these days.
|
|
|
|
08/13/2002 10:25:57 PM · #35 |
This is my version of what the rules say and mean.......Under the filters Photoshop or Non-Photoshop equivalent, the only things allowed are Sharpen and despeckle. Period.
The other things everyone seems confused about are under "Image." Mode, Adjust, Contrast etc.
If you are using a filter besides Despeckle or Sharpen and/or you spot edit it is a disqualification.
Pretty simple, really.
Shar
ps: I can do amazing things with photographs AND filters. The eye-opener, for me, (from this site) was the amazing photos that can be achieved without deception.
Thank you dpchallenge and all the members!!
* This message has been edited by the author on 8/13/2002 10:25:50 PM. |
|
|
|
08/13/2002 10:35:39 PM · #36 |
Originally posted by Journey:
I'm sorry but I feel that allowing playing with individual channels gets into the realm of manipulation.
If the rules say WHOLE IMAGE they should also say ALL CHANNELS ONLY.
If you have ever use a enlarger and printed your own prints / used a minilab you would know that the most basic feature is the ability to control CYMK aka color channels... and with a bit of skill you can adjust in RGB.... but since a digicams native color space is RGB it makes more sence to adjust in RGB.
And you try telling me the sky wasn't that orange color... :P
Personally, I would love Gaussian Blur being allowed but as you said, where to draw the line. That's the big question. Again, I have no problem with whatever rules will be laid down provided they will be clear to all.
Actually I see no problems with people using Gaussian Blur. If you "over-do-it" you will pay at voting time... many portraits use soft focus with great effect. Also it allows the careful bluring of the A and B channels in LAB mode to remove JPG artifacts... but then neatimage does a better job... BTW if you own a digicam download the FREE DEMO (www.neatimage.com), you will love it! (make sure you read some of the manual...)
psychephylax
Some people are much better with Photoshop than others
Some people are better at photography than others :p`
Anyway most ajustments I'm thinking of can be learnt in a few hours.
TerryGee
one more time(maybe I'm stupid) in photoshop- image-adjustments-selective color-removing or adding color to a color- OK or not?
Under the current rules, YES! I know this channel is getting hard to decipher without a degree in photoshop :-)
Personally, I wouldn't mind knowing what the moderators are thinking/discussing.
I see this site as a way to improve not only photography but basic digital darkroom technique. I have seen some great photo's let down by over compression, poor cropping and other things that simple adjustments would have improved 10 fold! I think there is enough software avalible to anyone who owns a digicam and enough need to make it worth while. Again I don't think anyone has won simply because of there photoshop technique... I am called a photoshop guru by many people yet I get cut to peices here... And I'm loving it!!!
|
|
|
|
08/13/2002 10:41:20 PM · #37 |
Ya know ... the last time I checked this was Digital Photography Challenge .... NOT Graphic Design Challenge ....
Why is it so difficult to follow the rules and take a shot and submit it without making alterations .. that just shows to me that you have to cover up mistakes and you are not a good photographer ... Isnt the whole point of shooting digital photography to learn from your shots ... not to play with a software editing program?
I know when i shoot for these challenges I do my BEST to shoot and use what i shoot ... maybe slightly altering the sharpness or making it black and white ... but that's it ... anything beyond that - then it's not my original photo and what's the point in that?
|
|
|
|
08/13/2002 10:51:00 PM · #38 |
Originally posted by PhotosByAyme:
Ya know ... the last time I checked this was Digital Photography Challenge .... NOT Graphic Design Challenge ....
Why is it so difficult to follow the rules and take a shot and submit it without making alterations .. that just shows to me that you have to cover up mistakes and you are not a good photographer ... Isnt the whole point of shooting digital photography to learn from your shots ... not to play with a software editing program?
I know when i shoot for these challenges I do my BEST to shoot and use what i shoot ... maybe slightly altering the sharpness or making it black and white ... but that's it ... anything beyond that - then it's not my original photo and what's the point in that?
I think part of the argument for allowing photoshopping is that even film photography has always had the development process to correct, emphasize, adjust the image. Making a great photograph requires skill in both arenas - framing the shot and knowing how to 'develop' it for maximum effect. Since the 'development' process is an important part of getting to the final image to remove it isn't making it a 'pure' photography challenge its making it more limiting than film photography is, and at the same time removing one of the great features of digital photography. |
|
|
|
08/13/2002 11:09:20 PM · #39 |
Most of the time in "photography 101" classes people don't spend a lot of time learning dark room technique.
They spend time learning framing, composition, exposure, shutter speeds, apetures, iso's, dof, focus, black and white versus color, contrast, and the myriad of other photographic techniques.
I am not saying darkroom technique isn't importantbut maybe it's better saved for "photogrpahy 102". |
|
|
|
08/13/2002 11:39:12 PM · #40 |
Originally posted by hokie:
Most of the time in "photography 101" classes people don't spend a lot of time learning dark room technique.
They spend time learning framing, composition, exposure, shutter speeds, apetures, iso's, dof, focus, black and white versus color, contrast, and the myriad of other photographic techniques.
I am not saying darkroom technique isn't important but maybe it's better saved for "photogrpahy 102".
Yup, so it isn't the first thing you should learn, but it is probably
almost mandated for something that should be considered 'above average'
or 'beyond beginner' or 'good' then ?
So where is the challenge here at ? If we aim too low we just
all underachieve.
Nearly all digital techniques are based on things people do with
film images - seems strange that we are going backwards in flexibility
with all this technology :)
I'm quite happy with the rules as is, though I'd love to be able to
use a soft clone brush to remove dust/ noise from some of my entries...
|
|
|
|
08/13/2002 11:48:39 PM · #41 |
I don't dispute that all photography skills/darkroom techniques should eventually be learned and explored. It's essential to producing above average photos consistently.
But I was under the impression this site was aimed at the lowest common denominator. Meaning the entry level digital camera user trying to learn to be a photographer instead of a snap shot taker.
I know we have a lot of folks here who are definitely NOT beginners but that just strengthens the argument to keep the rules simple and restricted to keep the experienced photographers from even greater advantage.
I just think there are a lot of sites already available to folks who want to go into "photography 102" and beyond but very few sites that offer such a great chance for the new digital folks to mingle with the semi experienced and maintain some equal footing. |
|
|
|
08/14/2002 12:14:54 AM · #42 |
I have found one of the most important things for the digital camera user trying to learn to be a photographer instead of a snap shot taker is proper digital darkroom technique.... Many people fail to learn about JPG compresion and basic color corrections, which can make a snapshot a photograph or vise versa! This is like not learning about what film you are using and what processing techniques are avalible.
as for lowest common denominator.. the software is avalible to anyone who can use a computer.
As for photography for design 101
... 1/4 was darkroom tech, 1/4 composition etc, 1/2 critique.
Though I think as for personal time it was 50/50 between darkroom and shooting. |
|
|
|
08/14/2002 12:19:33 AM · #43 |
| It would be so cool if there was some free tool that did a minimal amount of processing that we could be required to use in conjunction with DPC, so everyone had the same set of adjustments to play with, nothing more, nothing less.... Of course, it would have to be completely free, small in size to download over dialup, easy to use, and cross platform... bleh. |
|
|
|
08/14/2002 12:30:43 AM · #44 |
Originally posted by hokie:
I don't dispute that all photography skills/darkroom techniques should eventually be learned and explored. It's essential to producing above average photos consistently.
But I was under the impression this site was aimed at the lowest common denominator. Meaning the entry level digital camera user trying to learn to be a photographer instead of a snap shot taker...
I think there's a difference between being "Open To All" and aiming at the Lowest Common Denominator. Lots of folks can't afford Photoshop. I've never been able to afford an SLR or enlarger either -- that's the way it goes in this world sometime. I'm sure you can set your G2 into a mode to capture 640x480 pixels directly, and put you on a par with many users here, but it wouldn't be right to ask you to (unless we set up a special challenge that way). Otherwise, let's break the contest down and have a "winner" for each camera model...
I think the rules are just about right as they are, just there's been some confusion (and ignorance). I'd like to add the blur tools because they seem to me to be an extension of the sharpening tools (in the opposite direction). I think we could add the dodge and burn tools, but I think adding anything which will actually add/create or move pixels (clone/airbrush) will make a completely indefinable line and endless trouble. |
|
|
|
08/14/2002 12:44:03 AM · #45 |
Actually, you know what! I use a program called Irfanview for image management (usually shortened to iview). It's completely free, but only for windows. It has some basic colour management (brightness, contrast, gamma correction, and separate RGB adjustment) a simple sharpen filter, crop (a bit tricky to constrain the aspect ratio, but that might not matter in the future), resize/resample, and a slider for saving jpeg quality. You can use filter factory if you download the plugin. It's a fairly small download from www.irfanview.com, but unfortunately that site seems to be down at the moment (the first time I've seen that happen, honestly). We could mirror the file on DPC though for people to download.
So, no levels, no curves, no layers, but maybe enough to play with? And if everyone uses the same software, we can define the processing rules far more strongly, and also help each other out more easily.
Just a thought.
Oh - it also does "fine rotation", which is essential for DPC, really.
You can see a tutorial on it here: //www.teachers-connect.net/misc/quest/infanv/irfanv.htm
* This message has been edited by the author on 8/14/2002 12:58:16 AM.
* This message has been edited by the author on 8/14/2002 1:03:23 AM. |
|
|
|
08/14/2002 12:52:13 AM · #46 |
I see DPChallenge primarily as a learning vehicle for Photograpy for all of us. Even for experienced photographers it is a learning vehicle in the sense that it offers comments and votes from people with varying tastes, backgrounds, and opinions and also offers feedback on pictures submitted for critique in the forums. When I study images that I admire, I do so to expand my knowledge about photography. Since minimal post processing is allowed, I'm really digesting photographic techniques and not photographic manipulation or Photoshop savvy. I'm not really here for the latter as there are plenty of other sites that offer that.
No, it will never be a level playing field here and it is even silly to entertain such notions. Nor am I complaining about the present rules. I am just asking that the rules be spelled out exactly and in some detail so that all submitters will have a clear understanding what is allowed and what isn't.
Edit: Lisae: Hey, I paid my $600 for Photoshop and I will NEVER use anything less than that. Is anybody going to lend me his/her expensive camera with all those neat features so that I can submit pictures with good DOF and super sharp?????? <laughing>
* This message has been edited by the author on 8/14/2002 12:57:27 AM. |
|
|
|
08/14/2002 01:03:51 AM · #47 |
I was gonna let this thread go and let other people battle it out. However, since I've been asked to throw in my two bits....
Layers
I don't care if people use layers as long as they use them within the guidelines established. In other words, if they want to create a levels adjustment layer, as opposed to just using levels, so be it. Based on something I'll speak to in a minute, nor would I care if the opacity setting on a layer were an OK function to fiddle with. However, I'm very much against anybody using the blending modes. (I know, I know -- they are VERY useful tools. However, in my opinion, I think they're beyond the limits of what the site's about.)
Channels
I don't think it's fits the current idea of what we're doing to allow fiddling with channels. I fall into the camp that believes making changes to the red channel of an RGB image is only making a change to a third of the image. (Please don't get technical on me with this one -- it's just a point of view, however technically (in)accurate it may or may not be.) I recognize that using a simple "Adjust Levels" command tweaks each channel individually, and so it doesn't necessarily make sense not to allow it, I just don't want to see it used because I think it takes us further and further from the art (more or less) straight from the camera.
Filters
I'd make it easy and say you may use any of the submenu commands under the Blur, Noise, and Sharpen options (then list those specific items out) or their non-PS equivalents. Why do I choose those three? Well, first, I think there's really only a handful of truly usable filters under those three options. I think some people may be tempted to play with the others, but I think they'll likely be voted down for trying them out. I'd like to see some other blur options because I'm one of those people who has a lower end camera. With a few quick tweaks, I can blur a duplicate layer to my original shot, lower its opacity so it's mostly see through, and remove some of the pixellation from my images. It's possible to do with despeckle, but I like the control I can get with gaussian blur a lot more. As for the other noise options, well, it is possible to add a certain amount of noise in various ways without using the filter, might as well let people add it if they want. (Besides, maybe if it's allowable, we'll stop getting so many comments that say "Grain sucks..." -- or maybe we'll get more, who knows...)
Image Adjustments
The only image adjustments I'd allow would be Hue & Saturation and Levels. Hue and Saturation only because that's about the "easiest" way to allow for toned images without going crazy (and it is nice to be able to pump the color saturation a little on just about every color photo. I'd also say that these could only be applied to ALL channels, and not just to, for instance, the green channel.
Basically, I would write the rules so that someone could sit down with a Photoshop newbie for a total of about 5 minutes and say, "You can use this, and this, and this, and these things happen when you do." And that newbie would be able to comprehend it and know exactly what was legal. If they would need to go to a seminar to learn it, I think it shouldn't be legal.
* This message has been edited by the author on 8/14/2002 1:40:04 AM.
|
|
|
|
08/14/2002 01:14:02 AM · #48 |
Originally posted by Patella:
Image Adjustments
The only image adjustment I'd allow would be Hue & Saturation -- and that's only because it's about the "easiest" way to allow for toned images without going crazy. I'd also say that it could only be applied to ALL channels, and not just to, for instance, the green channel.
Basically, I would write the rules so that someone could sit down with a Photoshop newbie for a total of about 5 minutes and say, "You can use this, and this, and this, and these things happen when you do." And that newbie would be able to comprehend it and know exactly what was legal. If they would need to go to a seminar to learn it, I think it shouldn't be legal.
Do you mean here no Curves or Levels? Confusing with the part about adjustment layers (not copied) above.
I could probably show someone this stuff in 15 minutes -- you have to allow time to explain cropping/sampling and compression/file formats too -- if they already know how to use a computer in general... |
|
|
|
08/14/2002 01:47:45 AM · #49 |
GeneralE,
Edited my post to include Levels -- just forgot about them because I'm so used to using the shortcut keys to get to that dialogue box.
Personally, I'd avoid Curves because it really is such an advanced tool -- very difficult to use if you're a newbie (no matter how powerful it may be). Not something I feel you can easily pick-up in our 5-15 minute instructional window. My thinking was to include tools and options that were relatively easy to use and stay within the realm of photography without moving too far toward digital art (as, for instance, you would have with something like the colored pencil filter).
Whether or not I've opened up too many filter options, well, I'd be the first to say maybe I have. I just know that I'd really like to use my old Sony, and regardless of other lower end camera wins, don't feel like I can realistically "compete" without a little bit of (currently illegal) post-processing.
|
|
|
|
08/14/2002 02:31:59 AM · #50 |
Originally posted by Patella:
GeneralE,
Edited my post to include Levels -- just forgot about them because I'm so used to using the shortcut keys to get to that dialogue box.
Personally, I'd avoid Curves because it really is such an advanced tool -- very difficult to use if you're a newbie (no matter how powerful it may be). Not something I feel you can easily pick-up in our 5-15 minute instructional window...Whether or not I've opened up too many filter options, well, I'd be the first to say maybe I have. I just know that I'd really like to use my old Sony, and regardless of other lower end camera wins, don't feel like I can realistically "compete" without a little bit of (currently illegal) post-processing.
Thanks for the update. I think it's easiest to limit things to what's grouped in a menu, like "anything under the SHARPEN SUBMENU" -- I'd go bonkers without curves myself.
Interestingly, I was helping someone make some last-minute color correctons over the phone yesterday (for a book cover). She was used to using levels, but I had already experimented on the image using curves, so I had her open up the curves dialog, make certain adjustments, and explained what I was doing and how it worked. I said she could probably do a similar adjustment in Levels if she was more comfortable with that, but she said no, she thought she'd just keep doing it with Curves now...I find them very intuitive myself, but I learned them a long time ago so I'm not very objective, but I spent less than five minutes explaining it on the phone...
I'd resent (but could live with) applying adjustments to only the RGB composite vs. individual color channels, but if editing H&S or changing to LAB color is allowed then adjusting the color channels should be too. |
|
