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12/30/2005 04:44:45 PM · #1 |
I am still looking into which dslr I want to purchase when my camera fund gets healthy.
I was pretty set on the 20d, but am rethinking that and wondering about the 300d (also known as the Rebel, correct?) and worrying more about the lenses.
One question I would have for those who have experience with both cameras is regarding the noise level at the higher ISO settings. Is there a noticable difference from 800 up on these two cameras? I do a lot of indoor photography, and this would probably be important to me.
Any other observations/comparisons of the two models is appreciated.
Judy |
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12/30/2005 05:02:38 PM · #2 |
From my readings of reviews...
There is a slight but minimal difference between the 20D & 350D (Rebel XT) at high ISO speeds 800/1600.
There is a fair difference between the 20D/XT & the original Rebel. Although, if I recall the Rebel was still regarded quite well. Probably still equivalent to most of the newer DSLRs by competitors.
Of note, the 20D has a "boost" ISO level that's sorta like ISO 3200 |
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12/30/2005 05:16:42 PM · #3 |
You can put the russian firmware in teh rebel and get ISO 3200 as well.
The 20D has other perks - better focusing, better low light focusing, extra focus sensors when using a 2.8 lens(or wider).
From what i have seen, the nikons are noiser than the canons, across the board.
My experience is even on teh 300D nose can be bad or at times not noticeable at all...i cannot seem to predict what it will be an issue and when it won't.
If noise and low light useage is a concern, get teh 20D (or it's replacement, assumed due out in feb)
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12/30/2005 05:33:07 PM · #4 |
Originally posted by Prof_Fate:
You can put the russian firmware in teh rebel and get ISO 3200 as well. |
OR you could underexpose by a stop at 1600 and push it back up.
The "boost" mode is just a marketing trick. |
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12/30/2005 05:54:30 PM · #5 |
Originally posted by Uusilehto:
Originally posted by Prof_Fate:
You can put the russian firmware in teh rebel and get ISO 3200 as well. |
OR you could underexpose by a stop at 1600 and push it back up.
The "boost" mode is just a marketing trick. |
I had heard that, but then read an article that explained it. And it's not quite just a marketing trick. It's more akin to "certain" aspects are heightened and others are not. Don't recall where the article was...it was very technical though.
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12/30/2005 05:56:11 PM · #6 |
Btw...here are two shots taken in the same minute using a 70-200mm f/2.8 IS handheld. One is at ISO 100 w/flash the other at ISO 3200
 
Message edited by author 2005-12-30 17:56:32.
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12/30/2005 06:18:58 PM · #7 |
Originally posted by Uusilehto:
Originally posted by Prof_Fate:
You can put the russian firmware in teh rebel and get ISO 3200 as well. |
OR you could underexpose by a stop at 1600 and push it back up.
The "boost" mode is just a marketing trick. |
Hmm..shoot raw at 3200 and you can push it 2 stops, to 12,800!
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12/30/2005 06:19:57 PM · #8 |
Originally posted by theSaj:
Originally posted by Uusilehto:
Originally posted by Prof_Fate:
You can put the russian firmware in teh rebel and get ISO 3200 as well. |
OR you could underexpose by a stop at 1600 and push it back up.
The "boost" mode is just a marketing trick. |
I had heard that, but then read an article that explained it. And it's not quite just a marketing trick. It's more akin to "certain" aspects are heightened and others are not. Don't recall where the article was...it was very technical though. |
3200 shows as ISO H on the rebel, and on the 1D m2n (and on the 20D i think, but i have not seen it personally)
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12/30/2005 08:07:25 PM · #9 |
Judy,
I have both in my hands, the rebel and the 20d... I use both of them... and I love them both. However in terms of 'that feeling' nothing can beat the 20D. Save yourself the money of buying twice, get the 20D, you will never regret it.
Peter |
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12/30/2005 09:04:05 PM · #10 |
Originally posted by gibun:
Judy,
I have both in my hands, the rebel and the 20d... I use both of them... and I love them both. However in terms of 'that feeling' nothing can beat the 20D. Save yourself the money of buying twice, get the 20D, you will never regret it.
Peter |
I had the same "feeling" when I got my 20D.. then it just went away.. but it came back stronger when I got my 5D :)
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12/30/2005 09:16:42 PM · #11 |
When I bought my 20D the store had gone out of stock the night before. They loaned me a 300D and sent me out the door with my lenses. I used the 300 for a week, then got the 20D. The difference was like night and day for me, very significant. The 20D seemed in general crisper and more luminous across the board, and it is far more responsive and smoother right to the highest ISO than the 300D was. To my eye, at least, the 20D produces superior results at ISO 800 to those the 300D makes at ISO 100, especially in images with large dark areas prominent.
Similar differences can be expected between 350xt and 300D, with the high-ISO performance a little less scintillating I understand.
R. |
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12/30/2005 09:18:34 PM · #12 |
Originally posted by DanSig:
Originally posted by gibun:
Judy,
I have both in my hands, the rebel and the 20d... I use both of them... and I love them both. However in terms of 'that feeling' nothing can beat the 20D. Save yourself the money of buying twice, get the 20D, you will never regret it.
Peter |
I had the same "feeling" when I got my 20D.. then it just went away.. but it came back stronger when I got my 5D :) |
I agree just buy a 5D I probaly would of talked myself into it when I was in the camera buying mood but I only did a days research I'm happy with my 20D I just hate that dang 1.6 enlargment. Buy the 5D you won't feel bad I know I wouldn't |
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12/30/2005 11:06:59 PM · #13 |
Originally posted by radionin:
I agree just buy a 5D I probaly would of talked myself into it when I was in the camera buying mood but I only did a days research I'm happy with my 20D I just hate that dang 1.6 enlargment. Buy the 5D you won't feel bad I know I wouldn't |
Yeah the only thing I might regret is losing a 25 yr marriage because of blowing our budget on a camera!
It sounds like the responses here feel that the value for the money still lies in the 20D vs. either Rebel? It has taken me 8 months to get $500 together. I'm getting impatient and wondering about the lower price option. Sounds like I should still be patient?
(by the way...my plan is to really try to do this without selling my 717. I think it has value to remain as a backup.) |
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12/31/2005 01:43:06 PM · #14 |
Go for the 350D over the 300D. You get a newer-generation sensor that is better in low light and the price difference is minimal.
Since money's an issue, you should consider the 350D with the 50 f/1.8 or some other wide aperature prime over the 20D and kit lens. (and the 350D with both the kit lens and the 50 f/1.8 is cheaper than the 20D without a lens.)
A 350D in your hands beats a 5D on the store shelf.
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12/31/2005 01:52:12 PM · #15 |
If money's an ongoing issue, the 350xt won't disappoint you. And remember it holds resale value pretty well, if you ever feel the urge to move up and don't want to keep it for a backup. Better the 350 and good glass than the 20D and the kit lens.
R. |
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12/31/2005 03:09:04 PM · #16 |
In the Popular Photography Digital Imaging Guide (Winter 2006) I bought in the airport the other day, their "Certified Test Results" say this about the XTs noise: Very Low at ISO 100, low at ISO 200, moderately low at ISO 400, moderate at ISO 800, unacceptable at ISO 1600. They also say in the body of the article: "But our tests also revealed higher noise levels on the XT compared with the 20D, especially noticeable at speeds above ISO 400. In fact, the Rebel XT fails our noise test at ISO 1600, while the 20D passes with moderately low noise."
Actually, that magazine might be a good one to check out. They've got a lot of info on some of the cheaper dSLRs (XT, D50, D70s, *ist DL, E-500) and a little bit on some higher end models like the 5D. The D200 appears to be rated in the current regular issue of Pop Photo, but I only made it through one magazine on the plane so I haven't read it yet...
Message edited by author 2005-12-31 15:09:41. |
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12/31/2005 06:38:45 PM · #17 |
The 20D is probably one of the best cameras ever when it to comes to image quality at high ISO settings. On a price/performance continuium measuring high ISO ability it is far out of line compared to competitors. It is the one reviewers use as a de facto standard when comparing high ISO performance. Canon may have made a mistake when they let us have such good performance for the price. It's almost freakish.
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12/31/2005 06:41:59 PM · #18 |
I haven't read the previous posts, but I do have first hand experience processing thousands and thousands of 300D and 20D files - my experience is this:
20D ISO 100= 300D ISO 200
20D ISO 200= 300D ISO 400
20D ISO 400= 300D ISO 800
and so on... basically the Rebel is one step behind on noise. I can get almost the same exact file on the 20D at ISO 1600 as the Rebel gets on ISO 800 - trust me - I've shot side by side with the Rebel at a wedding and everything else being the same, the 1600 Rebel = 800 20D almost exactly.
:)
HTH,
M
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12/31/2005 06:59:29 PM · #19 |
Originally posted by Uusilehto:
Originally posted by Prof_Fate:
You can put the russian firmware in teh rebel and get ISO 3200 as well. |
OR you could underexpose by a stop at 1600 and push it back up.
The "boost" mode is just a marketing trick. |
Except based on the linearities of the sensor, you'll get a whole lot more noise capturing that way. About the best way to get tons of unpleasant noise is to underexpose and 'push' digital files. |
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12/31/2005 07:14:07 PM · #20 |
i think you wanted to write:
20D ISO 200= 300D ISO 100
20D ISO 400= 300D ISO 200
20D ISO 800= 300D ISO 400
20D ISO 1600= 300D ISO 800
Originally posted by mavrik:
I haven't read the previous posts, but I do have first hand experience processing thousands and thousands of 300D and 20D files - my experience is this:
20D ISO 100= 300D ISO 200
20D ISO 200= 300D ISO 400
20D ISO 400= 300D ISO 800
and so on... basically the Rebel is one step behind on noise. I can get almost the same exact file on the 20D at ISO 1600 as the Rebel gets on ISO 800 - trust me - I've shot side by side with the Rebel at a wedding and everything else being the same, the 1600 Rebel = 800 20D almost exactly.
:)
HTH,
M |
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12/31/2005 07:29:39 PM · #21 |
If you are on a budget, I do have a 300D for sale.
Condition of the camera is a 9 on a 1-10 scale,
Original box, discs, kit lens (also in great condition), battery, charger.
They rubber eye piece is missing, but it never bothered me so I didnt order a new one. They are like 20 bux if it bothers you that much.
The camera has brand new mirror mechanism, so it's almost like having a brand new camera.
If you are interested, I can have photos after the weekend.
Looking to get $500 USD.
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12/31/2005 07:44:03 PM · #22 |
Originally posted by zxaar:
i think you wanted to write:
20D ISO 200= 300D ISO 100
20D ISO 400= 300D ISO 200
20D ISO 800= 300D ISO 400
20D ISO 1600= 300D ISO 800 |
ROFL yes I had it backwards. You can get to ISO 400 on the 20D what you get on the 300D ISO 200. my fault.
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12/31/2005 10:31:35 PM · #23 |
Originally posted by kearock:
In the Popular Photography Digital Imaging Guide (Winter 2006) I bought in the airport the other day, their "Certified Test Results" say this about the XTs noise: Very Low at ISO 100, low at ISO 200, moderately low at ISO 400, moderate at ISO 800, unacceptable at ISO 1600. They also say in the body of the article: "But our tests also revealed higher noise levels on the XT compared with the 20D, especially noticeable at speeds above ISO 400. In fact, the Rebel XT fails our noise test at ISO 1600, while the 20D passes with moderately low noise."
Actually, that magazine might be a good one to check out. They've got a lot of info on some of the cheaper dSLRs (XT, D50, D70s, *ist DL, E-500) and a little bit on some higher end models like the 5D. The D200 appears to be rated in the current regular issue of Pop Photo, but I only made it through one magazine on the plane so I haven't read it yet... |
ISO 1600 will in most cases be a "fail", however, the quality that the 20D & XT get at 1600 is better than most other SLRs get at 800. |
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01/01/2006 12:59:23 AM · #24 |
| Very helpful info indeed. Thank you very much. |
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01/01/2006 04:23:22 AM · #25 |
Originally posted by Gordon:
Originally posted by Uusilehto:
Originally posted by Prof_Fate:
You can put the russian firmware in teh rebel and get ISO 3200 as well. |
OR you could underexpose by a stop at 1600 and push it back up.
The "boost" mode is just a marketing trick. |
Except based on the linearities of the sensor, you'll get a whole lot more noise capturing that way. About the best way to get tons of unpleasant noise is to underexpose and 'push' digital files. |
Interestingly enough, I found (by observation only, no detailed testing) that the 20D was worse than the 300D in this respect. Quite a lot of noise in dark areas. As I said, though, no detailed testing, just observation. I had to sell the 300D to pay for the 20D, so couldn't test side by side.
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