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12/07/2005 05:24:59 PM · #126 |
Originally posted by fotomann_forever:
I'm listening to you and I agree with you on points. |
I'm listening to you, too, and your justifications certainly give the nudity in your photo at least SOME merit (according MY opinion, in the way I look at this).
You have been perfectly reasonable throughout this debate, which is good, too.
As I said in the beginning, I would have only deducted points, not totally dismissed your effort.
Oh and I didn't mean to steal any limelight here, I only wanted to give voice to the people on the other side of this fence. I had no idea I would be dragged through the coals quite this much.
No matter what the photo is - so far, we have NEVER had a perfect 10 - not even with a pic that has NO controversy to it whatsoever, so I guess you had to expect some opposition, right? We simply don't all like the same things. |
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12/07/2005 05:27:15 PM · #127 |
Originally posted by pekesty:
You seem to be placing everything into a neat little mold, and leaving no room for originality, creativity, or thought provoking ideas. |
I have read with great interest the viewpoints expressed by the various players, and do believe you may want to review Beetle's previous comments in this regard.
Nowhere in her comments does she even begin to suggest that everything should be placed into neat little molds.... nor are her proposals such that they would negate attempts at originality, creativity or even thought provoking idea.
What you seem to miss is the fact that she finds the presence of the nude in this instance a bit of a stretch as it relates to the intrepretation of "Industrial"
I for one have worked in many an industrial setting, and to be honest, this photo is not at all reflective of those environments.
Is the photo a great depiction of the "Pin-up" genre that we are all familiar with.......absolutely, but I have a great deal of difficulty is categorizing it as being a poster child for things that are "Industrial".
I fear that some people may have viewed this as an attempt to "Shoe Horn" this photo into the challenge, and expressed their displeasure by doling out a lower level score.
Just a thought.
Ray |
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12/07/2005 05:29:43 PM · #128 |
Originally posted by megatherian:
This ignores the fact that pin ups were a strong part of the American industrial culture. Honestly I don't see how say a hard hat is any more industrial than a pinup. |
If the challenge is "Cars", and I take a photo of a lacy pair of knickers - wouldn't that be too much of a stretch?
I'm sure there HAVE been knickers in cars from time to time, but it is NOT a reasonable thing to associate with cars, just like naked women are NOT something that comes to my mind when I think about industrial machinery. |
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12/07/2005 05:30:23 PM · #129 |
Originally posted by RayEthier:
I have read with great interest the viewpoints expressed by the various players, and do believe you may want to review Beetle's previous comments in this regard.
Nowhere in her comments does she even begin to suggest that everything should be placed into neat little molds.... nor are her proposals such that they would negate attempts at originality, creativity or even thought provoking idea.
What you seem to miss is the fact that she finds the presence of the nude in this instance a bit of a stretch as it relates to the intrepretation of "Industrial"
I for one have worked in many an industrial setting, and to be honest, this photo is not at all reflective of those environments.
Is the photo a great depiction of the "Pin-up" genre that we are all familiar with.......absolutely, but I have a great deal of difficulty is categorizing it as being a poster child for things that are "Industrial".
I fear that some people may have viewed this as an attempt to "Shoe Horn" this photo into the challenge, and expressed their displeasure by doling out a lower level score.
Just a thought.
Ray |
Well said. |
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12/07/2005 05:31:14 PM · #130 |
Originally posted by pekesty:
any limitation, is limitation |
If I didn't want ANY limitation to my photography, I would not be on DPC. I welcome the fact that the restraints make me think.
If I want photography without ANY restraints, I shoot for myself. |
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12/07/2005 05:31:44 PM · #131 |
Originally posted by Beetle:
If the challenge is "Cars", and I take a photo of a lacy pair of knickers - wouldn't that be too much of a stretch?
I'm sure there HAVE been knickers in cars from time to time, but it is NOT a reasonable thing to associate with cars, just like naked women are NOT something that comes to my mind when I think about industrial machinery. |
Just a question though. Say it were the theme was Cars. And, I had used a nude woman on a car (also pinup styled) would that have fit the challenge?
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12/07/2005 05:33:38 PM · #132 |
Originally posted by RayEthier:
I fear that some people may have viewed this as an attempt to "Shoe Horn" this photo into the challenge, and expressed their displeasure by doling out a lower level score.
Just a thought.
Ray |
Yes, that's pretty much the point IMO. The low votes can be attributed to those who "hate nudity on basic principles" (there's no arguing with them) and those who felt this was a shoehorn, an attempt to "score" with a nude, and there's no arguing with them either; the nude is so startling in context that this is a valid interpretation IMO.
R. |
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12/07/2005 05:34:51 PM · #133 |
Originally posted by fotomann_forever:
Originally posted by Beetle:
If the challenge is "Cars", and I take a photo of a lacy pair of knickers - wouldn't that be too much of a stretch?
I'm sure there HAVE been knickers in cars from time to time, but it is NOT a reasonable thing to associate with cars, just like naked women are NOT something that comes to my mind when I think about industrial machinery. |
Just a question though. Say it were the theme was Cars. And, I had used a nude woman on a car (also pinup styled) would that have fit the challenge? |
Not any more than this one did, no. Arguably less, since the whole point of your photo was "contrast" and there's less of that in car/nude than there is in this entry.
R. |
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12/07/2005 05:35:00 PM · #134 |
Originally posted by fotomann_forever:
Just a question though. Say it were the theme was Cars. And, I had used a nude woman on a car (also pinup styled) would that have fit the challenge? |
I know I have explained exactly THAT point many times already.
If you have a theme that has NO obvious need/call for nudity, then you use the nudity simply to "sell" your product. |
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12/07/2005 05:39:10 PM · #135 |
Originally posted by Beetle:
thought I had typed enough by now, and hopefully in clear enough English, but perhaps I should just give up.
Perhaps you could all try to re-read my Chinese and attempt to understand it. All my repetitions don't seem to make it any clearer |
Originally posted by kirbic:
OMG, chill!
Sorry I asked that perhaps you might consider a broader viewpoint. I did not deserve the condescending attitude, and no, repeating a point does not make it any more clear, or valid. |
Originally posted by Beetle:
...To Kirbic:
Thanks a lot for that snarky come-back. Just because I am representing the other side in this debate doesn't mean my opinion must be wrong.
So far, the whole debate had been polite and civilized. Thanks a lot for ruining this. At this point, I believe it is best for me find something else to do. |
Lemmeesee, first apparently I understood your points as well as I understand Chinese (not at all), moreover, I did not apparently even attempt to understand them (gee, I thought I considered your thoughts at length). Now I've gone and ruined a polite debate by suggesting that you could, just possibly, benefit from taking a little broader view before forming your opinion, and for taking exception (note, not offense) to the condescending, accusatory tone of your post (quoted above). My most humble apologies. I'm so sorry if no one can disagree with you directly without being "snarky." If this response reads as "snarky", then so be it.
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12/07/2005 05:40:37 PM · #136 |
Originally posted by Beetle:
Originally posted by fotomann_forever:
Just a question though. Say it were the theme was Cars. And, I had used a nude woman on a car (also pinup styled) would that have fit the challenge? |
I know I have explained exactly THAT point many times already.
If you have a theme that has NO obvious need/call for nudity, then you use the nudity simply to "sell" your product. |
I could also argue that an "obvious" reason for that would be historical genre.
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12/07/2005 05:41:22 PM · #137 |
Originally posted by kirbic:
Lemmeesee, first apparently I understood your points as well as I understand Chinese (not at all), moreover, I did not apparently even attempt to understand them (gee, I thought I considered your thoughts at length). Now I've gone and ruined a polite debate by suggesting that you could, just possibly, benefit from taking a little broader view before forming your opinion, and for taking exception (note, not offense) to the condescending, accusatory tone of your post (quoted above). My most humble apologies. I'm so sorry if no one can disagree with you directly without being "snarky." If this response reads as "snarky", then so be it. |
It appears that the majority of posters in here disagree with me and are trying to convince me to see the light.
However, YOU are the only one so far that seems to have gotten out of bed on the wrong side this morning. |
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12/07/2005 05:46:09 PM · #138 |
Originally posted by pekesty:
Originally posted by Beetle:
...constitutes much limitation. |
any limitation, is limitation |
"Limitation is the sincerest form of flatulence."
maybe I misquoted...
All points and opinions are valid. I'm for agreeing to disagree and let the votes fall where they may. :)
Message edited by author 2005-12-07 17:46:25. |
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12/07/2005 05:47:34 PM · #139 |
Originally posted by Beetle:
If the challenge is "Cars", and I take a photo of a lacy pair of knickers - wouldn't that be too much of a stretch?
I'm sure there HAVE been knickers in cars from time to time, but it is NOT a reasonable thing to associate with cars, just like naked women are NOT something that comes to my mind when I think about industrial machinery. |
It would be a lot more of a stretch than this because there hasn't been a shared history - there's no integration of the culture between lacy knickers and cars.
Naked women don't come to my mind when I think of industrial either (unless I'm thinking of the porn industry, but that's a different argument)but this isn't just a random picture of a naked woman - this is a picture created to mimic the look and feel of a pin up which is a part of American industrial culture (like it or not). Personally I think it does a fairly good job of that.
I do believe you have the right to vote here on DPC and I don't think we need to check credentials to see who's a better / smarter photographer to have an opinion here. I appreciate debates like this because it encourages people to (lord knows it doesn't actually MAKE them) think.
Now with that said the sooner you admit I am right you are wrong the better off the rest of us will be :þ |
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12/07/2005 05:48:20 PM · #140 |
Originally posted by Beetle:
I know I have explained exactly THAT point many times already.
If you have a theme that has NO obvious need/call for nudity, then you use the nudity simply to "sell" your product. |
We've heard you express your point, but have you heard ours?
Nudity is a category of photography, as is landscape, studio, etc. The challenge was..."Photograph something that has an "industrial" feeling."
Fotoman used nudity and gave it an "industrial" feeling, and your totally discounting him and accusing him of using nudity to sell. |
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12/07/2005 05:50:37 PM · #141 |
Originally posted by megatherian:
Now with that said the sooner you admit I am right you are wrong the better off the rest of us will be :þ |
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12/07/2005 05:52:42 PM · #142 |
Originally posted by pekesty:
... and accusing him of using nudity to sell. |
I am... lol ... thanks for the idea :-)
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12/07/2005 05:58:01 PM · #143 |
Originally posted by pekesty:
We've heard you express your point, but have you heard ours?
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If I didn't know and accept your point of view, I would have scored that photo a 1 (if I had voted at all). As it is, I would have only deducted points, all BECAUSE I see your point. I see it, but I don't agree with it.
We all grow up with certain values. I guess mine are a very curious mix, but just as valued as yours, anyway.
I can be incredibly open at times - my toybox would probably make you blush, and I can happily tolerate/encourage all sorts of things between consenting adults.
None of that changes the fact that I think there is a time and place for all that. Nudity and sex are great, but not ALWAYS AND EVERYWHERE. |
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12/07/2005 05:59:50 PM · #144 |
Originally posted by fotomann_forever:
Iâm quite offended by the number of unpleasant comments received on this submission regarding my use of âgratuitousâ nudity and the number of low votes (1-4) it received. I'm irrate about the junk votes on the low end. Thirty-four votes of one is unacceptible for an image of this quality. |
At this point, I don't care about the image, but I care very much about the bullying tone of this thread!
If you reserve the right to shoot what you want, then preserve the right for people to like or dislike it and comment accordingly.
To start berrating people for reacting to your work when it was created to stimulate reactions is just not on.
For those of you who don't know, this member became quite abusive in private emails to commenters. His premise in those communications as well as this thread is "How dare you not like my work! You know nothing". Abusing voters and commenters expressing a personal view goes way outside the guidelines of acceptable behaviour not only in DPC but also in life.
Accord others the freedom of expression that you are demanding for yourself - get over it and move on. |
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12/07/2005 06:04:17 PM · #145 |
Originally posted by pekesty:
Fotoman used nudity and gave it an "industrial" feeling,....... |
If indeed such was the case, we would not be having this discussion.
The "Industrial Feeling" you allude to in this instance is fleeting at best. Having been informed by the author as to his specific intents in this regard I can now understand his perspective. However, I can honestly say that the "Softness of the skin contrasted against the harshness of the industrial environment, was not the first thing that came to my mind.
The "Industrial Feeling" you allude to was truly not communicated to me, and I make no apologies for failing to recognize that which you seem to consider a "Given"
Ray |
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12/07/2005 06:06:12 PM · #146 |
Originally posted by RayEthier:
Originally posted by pekesty:
Fotoman used nudity and gave it an "industrial" feeling,....... |
If indeed such was the case, we would not be having this discussion.
The "Industrial Feeling" you allude to in this instance is fleeting at best. Having been informed by the author as to his specific intents in this regard I can now understand his perspective. However, I can honestly say that the "Softness of the skin contrasted against the harshness of the industrial environment, was not the first thing that came to my mind.
The "Industrial Feeling" you allude to was truly not communicated to me, and I make no apologies for failing to recognize that which you seem to consider a "Given"
Ray |
grinders? sparks? |
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12/07/2005 06:10:59 PM · #147 |
Originally posted by pekesty:
grinders? sparks? |
There is on occasion... a quantum leap between the ability to read.....and that of understanding....Re-read my comments and do try to interpret them.
Ray
Message edited by author 2005-12-07 18:12:49. |
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12/07/2005 06:15:11 PM · #148 |
Originally posted by RayEthier:
Originally posted by pekesty:
grinders? sparks? |
There is on occasion... a quantum leap between the ability to read.....and that of understanding....Re-read my comments and do try to interpret them.
Ray |
So we've moved from discussion and on to personal attacks? Nice!
Message edited by author 2005-12-07 18:23:19. |
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12/07/2005 06:22:18 PM · #149 |
Now remember the basic rules:
No hitting below the tool belt.
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12/07/2005 06:27:03 PM · #150 |
OK, I gave you a 5. For the most part I like the picture and appreciate the work you put into it. But there were two things I didn't like, and mentioned in my brief comments. Nudity is not an issue here. I'll elaborate here:
1. I find the lack of eye protection disturbing. The risk is just too high for such little potential reward. (Choice: blue ribon or eyes -- which would you pick).
2. The oil, while it provided protection for her skin, made her look unreal. I really wasn't sure that she wasn't a mannequin. So I don't appreciate this as a good nude shot either.
I think you could have made your point much better by having her work a drill press with her natural skin. This could have been set up in a safe fashion. |
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