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12/07/2005 03:20:47 PM · #26 |
The bottom line is this - DPC loses a lot of the upper crust participants because the site in its current configuration is meant for the average Joe who is still learning the basics of photography. If we want to keep those people
Setzler
Gordon
Mcmurma
Kiwiness
Vipermike
Heida
JJBeguin
DSidwell
Magnetic9999
We need to come up with a way to solve the dilemma of the BEST photographers here. Otherwise, they will continue to move on. You can argue that ad nauseum, but that's the way it is.
M
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12/07/2005 03:22:19 PM · #27 |
Originally posted by ursula:
Originally posted by mcmurma:
And how is it possible that any camera carrying grandma is qualified to vote on the technical and artistic merits of a photo? |
Now you watch it there, don't you go insulting grandmas - I'm not one yet, but I'm hoping, and I could be one. |
I'm a grandpa, can I be insulted in your place? |
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12/07/2005 03:25:01 PM · #28 |
Originally posted by Jammur:
Now, how do we select a jury? |
I think it should be a jury of our piers...
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12/07/2005 03:25:31 PM · #29 |
Originally posted by Alienyst:
Originally posted by ursula:
Originally posted by mcmurma:
And how is it possible that any camera carrying grandma is qualified to vote on the technical and artistic merits of a photo? |
Now you watch it there, don't you go insulting grandmas - I'm not one yet, but I'm hoping, and I could be one. |
I'm a grandpa, can I be insulted in your place? |
Oh sure, go ahead. You're a grandpa? And I figured you for a kid.
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12/07/2005 03:25:33 PM · #30 |
And what will these "artists" have to say if the chosen judges have a different definition of art than they do? This is like being politically correct--either accept "their" definition of art of you are "wrong", and your views are invalid.
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12/07/2005 03:26:15 PM · #31 |
Originally posted by Art Roflmao:
Originally posted by Jammur:
Now, how do we select a jury? |
I think it should be a jury of our piers...
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That's almost as funny as another sentence earlier in the thread.
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12/07/2005 03:26:54 PM · #32 |
| I want to know how fotomann can check an opinion of "she's HOT" as helpful but not some of the well thought out opinions that did not like the image. :0P |
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12/07/2005 03:28:17 PM · #33 |
Originally posted by mavrik:
The bottom line is this - DPC loses a lot of the upper crust participants because the site in its current configuration is meant for the average Joe who is still learning the basics of photography. If we want to keep those people
Setzler
Gordon
Mcmurma
Kiwiness
Vipermike
Heida
JJBeguin
DSidwell
Magnetic9999
We need to come up with a way to solve the dilemma of the BEST photographers here. Otherwise, they will continue to move on. You can argue that ad nauseum, but that's the way it is.
M |
I don't know. At least JJ and dsidwell still participate. And there are plenty of others (e.g., librodo, scalvert) that are quite active still. Heida also hasn't left, she's just rather busy these days.
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12/07/2005 03:37:29 PM · #34 |
Originally posted by ursula:
I don't know. At least JJ and dsidwell still participate. And there are plenty of others (e.g., librodo, scalvert) that are quite active still. Heida also hasn't left, she's just rather busy these days. |
Now you're going to make me do homework.
1) Heida maybe busy - but she entered 47 times in 2003, 29 times last year, only 18 this year - her participation is way down.
2) Dave Sidwell has entered 8 times since the end of May and only 16 all year. 34 in 2004 and 75 in 2003. WAY down.
3) Gordon has entered 9 times in 2005, only twice since April. 47 in 2003.
4) Kiwiness has entered once since February 2005 and ribboned. 8 times in 2004 and 48 times in 2003.
5) Setz - we all know what's happened there.
You were right - JJBeguin was a bad example and Vipermike - well I say him because he was obviously "too good" for the average site member cuz he entered twice, won twice and left.
What has changed since 2003 that all these AMAZING photographers have tapered their participation that much? Yes, people move on - but how come it's almost always the site's best photographers? There IS a reason.
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12/07/2005 03:42:38 PM · #35 |
Originally posted by mavrik:
Yes, people move on - but how come it's almost always the site's best photographers? There IS a reason. |
Maybe they spend their time now making money from photography rather than spending as much time here. Actually is a compliment to DPChallenge...
Message edited by author 2005-12-07 15:43:00.
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12/07/2005 03:43:48 PM · #36 |
Originally posted by mavrik:
Originally posted by ursula:
I don't know. At least JJ and dsidwell still participate. And there are plenty of others (e.g., librodo, scalvert) that are quite active still. Heida also hasn't left, she's just rather busy these days. |
Now you're going to make me do homework.
1) Heida maybe busy - but she entered 47 times in 2003, 29 times last year, only 18 this year - her participation is way down.
2) Dave Sidwell has entered 8 times since the end of May and only 16 all year. 34 in 2004 and 75 in 2003. WAY down.
3) Gordon has entered 9 times in 2005, only twice since April. 47 in 2003.
4) Kiwiness has entered once since February 2005 and ribboned. 8 times in 2004 and 48 times in 2003.
5) Setz - we all know what's happened there.
You were right - JJBeguin was a bad example and Vipermike - well I say him because he was obviously "too good" for the average site member cuz he entered twice, won twice and left.
What has changed since 2003 that all these AMAZING photographers have tapered their participation that much? Yes, people move on - but how come it's almost always the site's best photographers? There IS a reason. |
I'm out of the loop, I don't know what happened with Setzler. But it seems to me that you're making a rather weak connection here using a very small pool of photographers. What you're saying is that some photographers have left the site because they grew in their skills so much that the site was not of interest to them anymore. That may be true, but, is it because of the voting patterns of the general subscribers, or is it because of themselves?
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12/07/2005 03:45:53 PM · #37 |
Originally posted by mavrik:
What has changed since 2003 that all these AMAZING photographers have tapered their participation that much? Yes, people move on - but how come it's almost always the site's best photographers? There IS a reason. |
It's only the best ones that you notice... |
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12/07/2005 03:47:01 PM · #38 |
Gordon posted the same thing not a week gone by yet - asking why all the good photographers leave. So... DPC is good enough to get us making money and not good enough to keep us once we are? Why?
Setzler and Gordon have both pulled for more 'advanced' challenges or more advanced rules to accomodate what people are learning and what they want to do. I would ask them if they see this to respond to that inquiry:
WHY do the best photographers DPC has continue to leave?
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12/07/2005 03:48:23 PM · #39 |
Originally posted by mavrik:
Originally posted by ursula:
I don't know. At least JJ and dsidwell still participate. And there are plenty of others (e.g., librodo, scalvert) that are quite active still. Heida also hasn't left, she's just rather busy these days. |
Now you're going to make me do homework.
1) Heida maybe busy - but she entered 47 times in 2003, 29 times last year, only 18 this year - her participation is way down.
2) Dave Sidwell has entered 8 times since the end of May and only 16 all year. 34 in 2004 and 75 in 2003. WAY down.
3) Gordon has entered 9 times in 2005, only twice since April. 47 in 2003.
4) Kiwiness has entered once since February 2005 and ribboned. 8 times in 2004 and 48 times in 2003.
5) Setz - we all know what's happened there.
You were right - JJBeguin was a bad example and Vipermike - well I say him because he was obviously "too good" for the average site member cuz he entered twice, won twice and left.
What has changed since 2003 that all these AMAZING photographers have tapered their participation that much? Yes, people move on - but how come it's almost always the site's best photographers? There IS a reason. |
Mavrik, as stated this isn't a valid conclusion. You would need to do research on how many people stop participating actively for whatever reason, and then see how the percentages compare. What percentage of active members taper off and diappear, and of that percentage how large a portion are the highly-skilled shooters?
Or are you saying the site should be tailored to the needs of the "better" photographers (more high-end friendly) even if that causes a dropoff in participation by those who need more of a learning environment?
I may not qualify to be appended to your list of "luminaries", but I assure you that if my participation DID drop off it would not be out of frustration with the site itself, but because other activities began to take precedence in my life.
R. |
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12/07/2005 03:51:32 PM · #40 |
Originally posted by mavrik:
What has changed since 2003 that all these AMAZING photographers have tapered their participation that much? Yes, people move on - but how come it's almost always the site's best photographers? There IS a reason. |
I agree with the noticeably reduced participation of some of the best of the site. I disagree however with the notion that it is always the best that leave. We only notice them because they're, exactly that: the best and easily noticed and missed.
It is just an evolution of any community. I am here as much as I like to be - mixed of course with how much I can afford to be here time-wise.
But I doubt it that anyone would have mentioned me in a thread if I never submitted an entry in a challenge again...
edit: already covered in other posts.
Message edited by author 2005-12-07 15:52:51. |
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12/07/2005 03:56:12 PM · #41 |
I don't have the desire or time to do a study on DPC but if I did, this is what I would ask for my DPThesis: How could DPC retain the photographers at the top end of the scale.
I'm sure out of 48,000 people there are THOUSANDS of newbies who come, see, never come again. I don't really care about their retention rates. However, how many of the top 10 "site favorites" from 2003 and 2004 have done gone and left us?
February 3 2004 Site Favorites:
jmsetzler 311 (mostly done)
kiwiness 267 (done)
Jacko 193 (mostly done)
jjbeguin 185 (here)
magnetic9999 160 (done)
arnit 148 (here)
timj351 130 (done - SC only)
Sonifo 125 (here)
dsidwell 123 (mostly done)
connie 119 (done)
Gordon 114 (done)
Shiiizzzam 108 (done)
FranziskaLang 95 (done)
Konador 95 (here)
DrJOnes 94 (here as much as ever)
Out of the top 15 in early 2004, 10 are done or mostly done entering. Includes 4 of the top 5 "site faves" at the time.
I know it's not conclusive, but c'mon.
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12/07/2005 04:00:47 PM · #42 |
FranziskaLang is back in the mix...I noticed she's entered a couple of recent challenges.
As for the others, again, if your available time is limited and you can spend it making money (shooting, processing, updating websites, etc...), or spend your time entering contests for virtual ribbons - what decision would you make?
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12/07/2005 04:10:55 PM · #43 |
Originally posted by mavrik:
Gordon posted the same thing not a week gone by yet - asking why all the good photographers leave. So... DPC is good enough to get us making money and not good enough to keep us once we are? Why?
Setzler and Gordon have both pulled for more 'advanced' challenges or more advanced rules to accomodate what people are learning and what they want to do. I would ask them if they see this to respond to that inquiry:
WHY do the best photographers DPC has continue to leave? |
As you said, one reason some very good photographers move on is because they become busy elsewhere or interested in other activities and places. But I disagree with you on two points:
(1) The people you mention are NOT the only very good photographers at DPChallenge;
(2) There is no evidence of a large scale (or even medium scale) cause-consequence.
Let me point out that there are probably many more "bad" or not "stellar" photographers that also leave DPChallenge for various reasons. You need to take the whole picture into account if you're going to make sweeping statements such as "but how come it's almost always the site's best photographers? There IS a reason.", and questions such as, "WHY do the best photographers DPC has continue to leave?"
Message edited by author 2005-12-07 16:11:24.
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12/07/2005 04:12:56 PM · #44 |
People grow...change...and move on. When you have learned what you can, reached the goals you set for yourself, and reach a certain level where there's really nothing left to prove (to yourself or anyone else) you move on to the next set of goals and new things to learn. It happens in all fields, not just on this one website. It's just one of those "circle of life" things. ;)
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12/07/2005 04:15:41 PM · #45 |
Yes, sweeping statements are bad - those were bad choices of words.
However Mcmurma, who started this thread, is one of the people I'm talking about! He's entered very little lately, 4 times in 2005, and has 6 ribbons in the 39 challenges he entered before leaving so I'm pretty sure he's got a qualified gripe.
Laurie - I agree with everything you posted except "you move on" - If DPC had 3 levels - beginner/amateur, average/medium and some sort of upper echelon, the top people would stay longer. Yes, they would eventually leave, but what would we leave from Master's level competition year-round?
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12/07/2005 04:16:59 PM · #46 |
Ok. I'm fine with that.
One thing I would like to add though. I think there's a danger in thinking that you're so good that you can't learn here anymore. In my opinion, that is simply letting things go to your head that shouldn't go to your head. It's very easy to think you're better than you actually are when people are saying, "Oh, that's WONDERFUL, you're such a GOOD PHOTOGRAPHER, you're a GENIUS, whatever." Everybody, including the people you mentioned in your list, could learn/teach something here.
Message edited by author 2005-12-07 16:26:54.
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12/07/2005 04:22:47 PM · #47 |
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12/07/2005 04:26:36 PM · #48 |
Well, I think, for the most part, the talent leaves because the un-talented are voting on their photos and they dislike the undeserved ones-fours. Not that I am skilled...I'm not at all...but there is no way my entry in the Industrial challenge should have rated a three or below. What we need is a group of QUALIFIED judges.
Message edited by muckpond - large photo to thumbnail. |
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12/07/2005 04:27:48 PM · #49 |
Originally posted by mavrik:
Yes, sweeping statements are bad - those were bad choices of words.
However Mcmurma, who started this thread, is one of the people I'm talking about! He's entered very little lately, 4 times in 2005, and has 6 ribbons in the 39 challenges he entered before leaving so I'm pretty sure he's got a qualified gripe.
Laurie - I agree with everything you posted except "you move on" - If DPC had 3 levels - beginner/amateur, average/medium and some sort of upper echelon, the top people would stay longer. Yes, they would eventually leave, but what would we leave from Master's level competition year-round? |
I'm all for another level or tier in the challenges, but what you seem to fail to recognize is that there are plenty of photographers here that were in the 4.5 - 5.5 average range over 3 years that have *ALSO* moved on, or dropped greatly in participation levels.. and it has nothing to do with not having another tier of photography to go to.
Sometimes people just get bored with something, their lives change, or 100 other things contribute to a lessening in participation that has *NOTHING* to do with not having a level of competition they feel they should belong to.
Sure, Setzler has been vocal about wanting another level.. but not a lot of other people have, and I suspect many on your list fall into the category I mentioned.. their lives have just gone a different direction.
This doesn't mean we shouldn't seriously look into adding another tier, but I have issues with calling it "masters" or anything else similarily condescending to people that have great photographs, but just don't follow the "mass appeal" line... especially this site's mass appeal line, which has proven again and again to be a little "same ol' same ol'".. unfortunately. |
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12/07/2005 04:28:08 PM · #50 |
Originally posted by mavrik:
:) |
Uh, oh, and I added my angry rant after your smile. Sorry.
But that is the way I feel about it. I get tired of hearing about these good photographers that have left, there are plenty of good photographers at DPChallenge.
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