DPChallenge: A Digital Photography Contest You are not logged in. (log in or register) 
 

DPChallenge Forums >> General Discussion >> What is a Professional Photographer?
Pages:  
Showing posts 1 - 19 of 19, (reverse)
AuthorThread
 11/06/2005 11:43:46 PM · #1
I was trying out a new contest website (let's leave it unnamed for now). They don't allow professionals to participate.

Ok, that's fine. I am not a professional (photographer), so I started posting some shots.

I posted my "Kitchen Bouquet" shot, and someone commented that they'd love to have that hanging on their wall. So, since I happened to already have that in my DPCPrints portfolio, I changed the photo description to include a URL to my DPCPrints account.

Now several users are "hounding" my photos, posting that I am a professional and should leave their site. (This is not the admins speaking, but a user). I have sent two notes to the administrator to clear this up and report this (now two) user(s), since in my view they violated the terms of service by posting in my photo that people should not vote for it (for the prizes) because "I am a professional", based on my having a DPCPrints account.

So, after that long winded description, what makes someone a professional. I earn MUCH less than 1% of my annual income selling prints. I emphasize MUCH there. I do not offer pay-for-photography services either. To me, clearly I am not a professional. But what are some definitions and sources of definitions that I can use to defend myself?

Thanks in advance...


11/06/2005 11:44:58 PM · #2
your main drive isn't to sell photos, but to create art.
11/06/2005 11:45:14 PM · #3
Id say if you make a signifcant amount of your income, then your professional. Id consider you an advanced hobbyist if thats a good word for it.
 11/06/2005 11:46:48 PM · #4
I'd guess I'd define a professional as someone whose *primary* income comes from photography work.
 11/06/2005 11:52:13 PM · #5
I derive a major portion of my income from handling photos and I even take photos for my job but I do not consider myself a professional.

In my mind, if you were a true professional, you wouldn't want to hang around on amateur photo sites scarfing on prizes a pro would not need. So by your very presence at this other site it should be evident you are not a professional. :-/

I'm not sure if the fact you take money for photos makes you a pro, regardless of how much you make or if you don't take money for photos you are not a pro... hmmm..that's a difficult one to figure.
 11/06/2005 11:54:04 PM · #6
A Professional is as you said someone who's income is derived from photography alone. I'm guessing that those useres on that unamed site are confused by the difference between proficeincy and professional. I mean they are welcome to come join this site and upload their work too - right there's no restrictions that they can't have any pics for sale, right?
 11/06/2005 11:57:48 PM · #7
pro·fes·sion·al Audio pronunciation of "professional" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (pr-fsh-nl)
adj.

1.
1. Of, relating to, engaged in, or suitable for a profession: lawyers, doctors, and other professional people.
2. Conforming to the standards of a profession: professional behavior.
2. Engaging in a given activity as a source of livelihood or as a career: a professional writer.
3. Performed by persons receiving pay: professional football.
4. Having or showing great skill; expert: a professional repair job.

n.

1. A person following a profession, especially a learned profession.
2. One who earns a living in a given or implied occupation: hired a professional to decorate the house.
3. A skilled practitioner; an expert.

So the real question is, are you a full time or part time professional?
 11/07/2005 12:14:23 AM · #8
Chris, I don't think Webster's quite on the ball with that one.

So since many (or most) of the people on this site are skilled practitioners, we are all professionals?

If you take pay for anything, you are a professional? Ever been paid for something besides your regular career? Perhaps someone paid you to drive them somewhere--aha, a professional driver?

I used to get paid to proctor tests (GREs) when I was in graduate school. Does that make me a professional proctor?

(Not arguing with you Chris, just taking issue with the Webster definition -- I had seen that online as well).


11/07/2005 12:17:55 AM · #9
Usually you are considered a pro, if like 60% of your income is derived from photography.

Message edited by author 2005-11-07 00:18:38.
 11/07/2005 12:18:41 AM · #10
The only significant difference in a professional and amatuer is that a professional does photography for a large part of his/her income. I'm a professional photographer... am I really good ... nah, I don't really believe I am and I know that there are a lot of amatuers that will wax my talent.
 11/07/2005 12:23:25 AM · #11
I sold real estate, and while agents are all over the board on how professionally they behave or treat clients, you can call yourself a professional regardless of how much money you make or what percentage of your income is derived from it.

I tried to see what the IRS defines it as, if anything. The Olympic committee defined the difference between amateur and professional very simply, which is the definition i tend to go buy - if you get paid to do it, you are a professional.

I have yet to generate dollar one from my photography (soon to change though!) but I have business cards, portfolio, website...all the trappings of a successful 'professional'. So where does that place me?

Is intent the defining factor? Is it a self-assigned title? Just a perception?
11/07/2005 12:25:20 AM · #12
I guess if they haven't defined what professional means, it's not really worth discussing much. I would say don't bother with it. If it's uptight, it's not worth it anyway...
 11/07/2005 12:27:39 AM · #13
There's a difference between "Calling yourself a professional" and being one! I don't think there will be a hard core definition, but for a website that says "professionals are excluded", I think they should be a little more specific. I guess in the end it's up to the admins there. We'll see how they respond.
 11/07/2005 12:28:15 AM · #14
Originally posted by jmsetzler:
I guess if they haven't defined what professional means, it's not really worth discussing much. I would say don't bother with it. If it's uptight, it's not worth it anyway...


Our posts passed each other. I agree.
 11/07/2005 12:56:51 AM · #15
On a more prosaic, practical level, I find it exceedingly unlikely that the otganizers would look at a "prints for sale" link to a place like DPC as evidence of "professionalism". A significant percentage of the happy-and-skilled amateurs who hang out online have some sort of link to sell their work.

I could be wrong, though. Anyway, if their definition excludes you, it's too small a pond for you to be wallowing in.

I wonder how they feel about micro-stock agencies viz professionalism? LOL... I suppose, on reflection, it's perfectly possible they'll draw the line at anyone who's ever made 6 bucks selling a print or 20 cents selling a stock image...

I wonder if I can get my amateur status back now that I'm retired? Is there a statute of limitations?

Idle thoughts here...

I'd tend to draw the line at "being hired to shoot", I think. I don't think throwing images at the world in the hopes some of them will stick and get paid for qualifies as "professional" by any stretch of the imagination. When people seek you out in order to hire your services, you're becoming a professional...

Robt.
 11/07/2005 01:02:38 AM · #16
You can usually use a rule of thumb that if at least 51% of your income is from photography, you are a professional. Any less is just a lucrative hobby.
 11/07/2005 03:44:17 AM · #17
related thread probably one of several.

Have the admins clearly define "Professional" and if you don't fit the description, tell the whiners to shut the **** up. :)
 11/07/2005 04:21:21 AM · #18
Originally posted by conglett:
You can usually use a rule of thumb that if at least 51% of your income is from photography, you are a professional. Any less is just a lucrative hobby.

If you file a Schedule C and try to deduct your photography-related expenses against your income you'd probably qualify as well.
 11/07/2005 04:49:24 AM · #19
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Originally posted by conglett:
You can usually use a rule of thumb that if at least 51% of your income is from photography, you are a professional. Any less is just a lucrative hobby.

If you file a Schedule C and try to deduct your photography-related expenses against your income you'd probably qualify as well.


Not necessarily so...
I've deducted all of my photography expenses for several years, but it has always been as a "hobby". This coming year, since I have made significantly more money, and actually set it up as a "business", it will all become business deductions.

From the IRS:
How do you distinguish between a business and a hobby?

Since hobby expenses are deductible only to the extent of hobby income, it is important to distinguish hobby expenses from expenses incurred in an activity engaged in for profit. In making this distinction, all facts and circumstances with respect to the activity are taken into account and no one factor is determinative. Among the factors which should normally be taken into account are the following:

1. Whether you carry on the activity in a businesslike manner
2. Whether the time and effort you put into the activity indicate you intend to make it profitable
3. Whether you depend on income from the activity for your livelihood
4. Whether your losses are due to circumstances beyond your control (or are normal in the startup phase of your type of business)
5. Whether you change your methods of operation in an attempt to improve profitability
6. Whether you, or your advisors, have the knowledge needed to carry on the activity as a successful business
7. Whether you were successful in making a profit in similar activities in the past
8. Whether the activity makes a profit in some years, and how much profit it makes
9. Whether you can expect to make a future profit from the appreciation of the assets used in the activity

Additional information on this topic is available in section 1.183-2 (b) of the federal tax regulations.

References:

* Treas. Req. 1.183-2 (b)
* Publication 535, Business Expenses

Linda
Pages:  
Current Server Time: 05/11/2026 07:47:57 PM

Please log in or register to post to the forums.


Home - Challenges - Community - League - Photos - Cameras - Lenses - Learn - Help - Terms of Use - Privacy - Top ^
DPChallenge, and website content and design, Copyright © 2001-2026 Challenging Technologies, LLC.
All digital photo copyrights belong to the photographers and may not be used without permission.
Current Server Time: 05/11/2026 07:47:57 PM EDT.