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10/06/2005 10:20:24 AM · #1 |
I don't understand why so many people feel you have to be outside the box to be creative. If a challenge is to take a picture of something green, then a picture of a red shoe could be considered outside the box if the photographer was thinking "this shoe will run on green grass" . I personally think creativity is possible within the box or with a slightly different, but obvious, interpretation. It will soon be that every challenge is a free study because so many people submit whatever they want and just don't care if it meets the challenge or claims "outside the box". Perhaps true creativity lies in clearly meeting the description of the challenge with a refreshing point of view. I'm not saying I don't want to have to think, but I am not a mind reader!
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10/06/2005 10:57:41 AM · #2 |
Its seems the notion has become that if you want to ribbon, thinking outside the box is the only way to make the ribbon happen. The problem has become that the process of thinking outside the box has become too much of the brain rather than the actual photograph. It seems as though that competitors want to emulate certain individuals on DPC who have the creativity and the ability to think outside the box but most important pull of the photograph. This leads to the idea that I too can think outside the box rather than can I really pull of the shot I have thought up.
There is much more to thinking outside the box. The ability to answer your own questions in regards to the topic can make a big difference. Most competitors that submit dont even look at the basics of photography. This site is designed to assist in development of photograph but if the basics are skipped thinking outside the box is just not possible. Everyone learns differently and thus finding your best learning method is key to assisting your development in photography. DPC has many many good photographers that are naturalists with creativity but you have to look at yourself and measure what your actually capable of photographing. Using those photographers creative idea and learning from it can be major start. All of us here have our specail talent using it to our advantage is the key and bring your own flavor to DPC.
I would love to able to create a guide and say this is how you think outside the box however I can not each person is different for some the thought process will not work. I myself am not creative and thus I wonder towards the basics, dynamics of photography. This alone is helping me develope my photograph. In the past month I have not submited to a challenge rather I have been viewing photograph up photograph and breaking it apart. I try to figure out the lighting, compostion, why did the photographer choose this idea and make notes.
I am not a great photographer and I can not give advice but what I can do is learn and learn in a way that helps me. I dont normally give advice or rant about thinks so I do apologize for my morning ranting but I thought I try and help. |
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10/06/2005 11:08:08 AM · #3 |
Creativity and Thinking Outside the Box are sometimes used to describe the results of not wanting to conform to the restrictions placed on us by the challenge topic. They can also be excuses for not being able to produce quality results within any restrictions. For voters to reward entries with high votes solely because they are Outside the Box is not fair to the photogs who made the effort to comply with the challenge topic.
Remember what the rules say -- "While voting, users are asked to keep in highest consideration the topic of the challenge and base their rating accordingly."
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10/06/2005 11:12:14 AM · #4 |
Every photographer has their own box. Some are large, some are small, but its a box so to speak. Some photographers step outside their box on regular occasions, some don't. Its individual choice. For example, studio shots are outside my box. I rarely take them and the results are inconsistent. I'm not comfortable taking studio images but hope to go outside my box a little more often.
Every voter has their own box. Some are large, some are small, but it is a box. Within that box are images they decide meet a challenge. They also throw images they like and styles they like into that box. Anything outside the box is, well, outside the box.
Some images fit into a large number of voter people's boxes. Some fit into none. Such is life.
Some images fit into a large number of photographer's boxes. Some fit into only a few. This is also life.
My point is that for some photographers, an image is not outside the box. For some voters the same image is outside the box. And vice versa.
I always get confused when people talk about outside the box. Who's box?
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10/06/2005 11:17:18 AM · #5 |
It seems as soon as you leave one box you end up in another one......so....don't take it too seriously
Message edited by author 2005-10-06 11:17:50.
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10/06/2005 11:22:42 AM · #6 |
| Each challenge has a box--if it is a challenge to shoot a green object, a green m&m fits neatly in the box. Someone might think a red m&m is an "outside the box" shot because there are also green ones in the package. Or a red m&m on a green background fits because there is green in the picture. Neither of these would fit IMO and the highest they would get is a 3. Are they right, am I right? Depends on who you ask I guess. |
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10/06/2005 11:32:11 AM · #7 |
Originally posted by chaimelle:
Each challenge has a box--if it is a challenge to shoot a green object, a green m&m fits neatly in the box. Someone might think a red m&m is an "outside the box" shot because there are also green ones in the package. Or a red m&m on a green background fits because there is green in the picture. Neither of these would fit IMO and the highest they would get is a 3. Are they right, am I right? Depends on who you ask I guess. |
See, you've described your box. And I'm sure a majority of voters would agree with you. But, assuming a person shooting a red M&M is shooting something outside their box is presumptuous. They could be color blind. Or they could have a different interpretation of the challenge than you do. Neither of you is wrong - they are just opinions after all.
In the end, the images that win conform to what the majority of voters feel is inside their box. There will always be complaints from voters and photographers alike about what's in and out of the box. But it will never be settled because everyone has a different box.
As to your questions, they are right and you are right. It goes back to opinion. Does it matter? Only if you want to win a ribbon or vote with a general consensus. Otherwise, who cares?
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10/06/2005 11:42:51 AM · #8 |
Don't assume everyone comes from the same country with the same traditions and ideas. What means something to someone from the usa, could mean something totally different in another country. (thong for example! ;) - In Australia it is a shoe..in the usa it is a ...well you know!)
I say if someone wants to submit something out of the box, then they have every right to. What may be out of the box to someone, could be way in the box to another. What's next, the "in the box - meets the challenge police patroling the challenges?". Don't make such a big deal over it, just vote according to how you see it.
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10/06/2005 11:54:41 AM · #9 |
The term "outside the box" has no meaning if you cannot define the box. As has been pointed out in this thread, your box may be different from my box. So "outside the box" is literally a meaningless term as far as rating each other goes.
The only way "outside the box" has any meaning in challenges is if we stipulate that the challenge description defines the box.
Since our challenges are almost always worded ambiguously enough that people of good will can (and do, incessantly) debate what the challenge "really means", it follows that there's only one viable definition of "box" in DPC; the "box" is the most common interpretation of the challenge topic.
In other words, those who shoot "outside the box" are those whose interpretations of the challenge defy the common, or popular, or easy, interpretation. It's frequently the case that OOB entries win ribbons, interestingly enough, and here's why: if a GOOD photographer takes a SKILLFUL "wow" shot from a POV that's different from the nominally accepted viewpoint, and IF this POV bears an obvious relationship to the challenge nonetheless, the image will stand out fromt he crowd and do very well.
A good excample would be the just-completed "beverages" challenge, where the "box" required a liquid and the blue ribbon showed only containers. This wasn't so far outside the box as to be unacceptable (4 of the top 20 showed only containers) but the clear, consensus approach was to photograph "liquids being liquid". REALLY outside the box would have been to photograph a field of hops growing and title it "Beer on the Hoof" :-)
Robt.
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10/06/2005 11:57:53 AM · #10 |
| To me a red m&m will never fit a green challenge. Green is green no matter what country you are from. I guess I am just tired of the complaints that "you can't be creative unless you go outside the box", and if "you can't see outside the box" (or choose not to) you are uneducated, not artistic, unworldly, etc. There have been many creative, artistic, totally in the box shots so it is possible. |
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10/06/2005 12:02:49 PM · #11 |
Originally posted by troberge:
What means something to someone from the usa, could mean something totally different in another country. |
Fanny. |
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10/06/2005 12:05:31 PM · #12 |
Chaimelle, I'm with you!
Yes, there are some grey areas that could be up to interpretation in some challenges.
However, it is just ridiculous to enter a challenge called "Dogs" with a shot of the moon, claiming to be such a brilliant out of the box thinker because some day there may be a dog ON the moon, or because some dogs might howl at it.
I resent being called narrow minded, a sheep/follower, in-the-box, or less capable just because I choose to actually think about the challenge that was set, instead of thinking about how I can rebel against it.
There are plenty of websites where you can enter whatever you want. If you are so dead set against any restrictions, why bother being here? |
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10/06/2005 12:13:01 PM · #13 |
Originally posted by troberge:
Don't assume everyone comes from the same country with the same traditions and ideas. What means something to someone from the usa, could mean something totally different in another country. (thong for example! ;) - In Australia it is a shoe..in the usa it is a ...well you know!)
I say if someone wants to submit something out of the box, then they have every right to. What may be out of the box to someone, could be way in the box to another. What's next, the "in the box - meets the challenge police patroling the challenges?". Don't make such a big deal over it, just vote according to how you see it. |
exactly
I think part of the main problem is that technically there are two boxes, one is the challenge details and the other is the photographers comfort zone (as stated by someone else).
The problem comes in when the photographer tries to step out of his/her own comfort box but ends up going outside the challenge box and confusing everyone as to whether he has met the challenge or not.
I see people trying to hard to understand the challenge details so they can stay in the challenge box but end up confusing the situation...i.e. a shoe is (among other things like a brake shoe or horse shoe) anything you put on your foot, so if you put a boot on your foot than it is a shoe, if you put a thong (flip flop) on your foot than it is a shoe.
We are a global site here and the challenge details are there to help EVERYONE know what the challenge is specifically, despite culture or geographical location. Not what your dictionary says, not what your culture says, but what the details say.
We should ALL be stepping out of the box BUT only your own personal comfort zone box. Learn new stuff, try something different, get rejected when asked if you can photograph someone, center your image, or don't center your image but stay within the challenge details and you won't be able to gripe that someone doesn't think you met the challenge (and if they still do, YOU know you did and they are wacked) :)
(Sorry if this sounded rantish, just get tired of all other the threads (not this one) about not understanding the supposed challenge details and why their shot failed to meet the challenge.)
Message edited by author 2005-10-06 12:14:40.
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10/06/2005 12:21:02 PM · #14 |
| I think there are three types of people here...letter of the law, spirit of the law, and the outlaws. What it comes down to is A) is the photograph sucessful? and B)Does it meet the challenge. Letter of the law people usually have a "system" to grade images. Spirit people go with thier feelings. Outlaws like thier shot & submit to whatever the challenge may be. |
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10/06/2005 12:22:39 PM · #15 |
| I have said it a few times before but i'll say it again... Imo thinking outside the box will get you severly punished by the voters, the winners are always the entries that are in the box, not necessarily at the very center of the box but somewhere in it, and at the same time creative and well taken. I have seen some mediocore taken shots do very well bcos of their creative appeal, and i have seen some very uncreative shots do very bcos of their technical expertise, I have never seen an out of the box entry do well. |
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10/06/2005 12:39:52 PM · #16 |
Originally posted by jhonan:
Originally posted by troberge:
What means something to someone from the usa, could mean something totally different in another country. |
Fanny. |
Oh, dont even get me started on fanny LMAO!
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10/06/2005 12:42:23 PM · #17 |
Originally posted by chaimelle:
To me a red m&m will never fit a green challenge. Green is green no matter what country you are from. I guess I am just tired of the complaints that "you can't be creative unless you go outside the box", and if "you can't see outside the box" (or choose not to) you are uneducated, not artistic, unworldly, etc. There have been many creative, artistic, totally in the box shots so it is possible. |
Green isn't just a colour though, it can be an area of land. You could tile your washing green in red tile, and suddenly your green is red, but no less of a green. |
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10/06/2005 12:44:00 PM · #18 |
Originally posted by chaimelle:
To me a red m&m will never fit a green challenge. Green is green no matter what country you are from. I guess I am just tired of the complaints that "you can't be creative unless you go outside the box", and if "you can't see outside the box" (or choose not to) you are uneducated, not artistic, unworldly, etc. There have been many creative, artistic, totally in the box shots so it is possible. |
Chaimelle, sometimes even submitting a photo well within the realms of the "box" results in a really low score. I have a photo that is in the compl. colors challenge that is bombing out big time BUT, it fits the challenge perfectly. It is not technically a bad shot either. So, if shooting an "out of the box" photograph will provoke a bit more of an interest in my photograph, then I am all for it.
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10/06/2005 12:45:17 PM · #19 |
Originally posted by troberge:
Originally posted by chaimelle:
To me a red m&m will never fit a green challenge. Green is green no matter what country you are from. I guess I am just tired of the complaints that "you can't be creative unless you go outside the box", and if "you can't see outside the box" (or choose not to) you are uneducated, not artistic, unworldly, etc. There have been many creative, artistic, totally in the box shots so it is possible. |
Chaimelle, sometimes even submitting a photo well within the realms of the "box" results in a really low score. I have a photo that is in the compl. colors challenge that is bombing out big time BUT, it fits the challenge perfectly. It is not technically a bad shot either. So, if shooting an "out of the box" photograph will provoke a bit more of an interest in my photograph, then I am all for it. |
Green also has a strong emotional weight, tied to sickness or envy, so a shot that expressed either of those feelings would be tightly tied to a theme of green, perhaps without ever showing the colour itself.
Some see the challenges as creative jumping off points, others seem to think of them as scavenger hunts. Either could be valid approaches. |
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10/06/2005 12:46:25 PM · #20 |
i find that having to comply to the challenge descriptions really limit my creativity, the photos ive taken outside challenges are so much better than any of my challenge entries
dpchallenge is having a reverse effect on me :/
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10/06/2005 12:48:19 PM · #21 |
Originally posted by Beetle:
Chaimelle, I'm with you!
Yes, there are some grey areas that could be up to interpretation in some challenges.
However, it is just ridiculous to enter a challenge called "Dogs" with a shot of the moon, claiming to be such a brilliant out of the box thinker because some day there may be a dog ON the moon, or because some dogs might howl at it.
I resent being called narrow minded, a sheep/follower, in-the-box, or less capable just because I choose to actually think about the challenge that was set, instead of thinking about how I can rebel against it.
There are plenty of websites where you can enter whatever you want. If you are so dead set against any restrictions, why bother being here? |
You know, the examples that you guys are stating are so far out of the box that they do deserve to get marked down. I do not think you have to exaggerate to this extent to get your point across. We all have the right to submit whatever we wish to, however if we submit shots like the ones you describe I am sure we will bomb out anyhow. I am all for out of the box shots, because lets face it, on challenge like branch and coffee shop..there are just so many trees and beans I can stand when voting and commenting!
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10/06/2005 12:53:31 PM · #22 |
Thinking "outside the box" is high risk / high reward, pure and simple.
If you want safe consistent scores, do not think outside the box. You can do great things inside the box: You can have a high average score in challenges. You may win ribbons. You can avoid low scores.
If you want highly variable scores, think outside the box. You can blow the competition away and win a blue. You can suck it up big time and win a brown. Your average score in challenges may be low. You can certainly still win ribbons. You need a thick skin. You need to remember the ratio of "winners" to "losers" is low. It may be 1 "outside the box" entry in 20 you enter wins a ribbon while the other 19 are below the 33%ile. A truth is that if you want to be "outside the box" you need a technically flawless style.
Decide which group you want to be in and go for it. I believe I tend to be in the former and not the latter. I think creativity can be expressed quite well "inside the box". I plan on winning a ribbon in the near future... |
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10/06/2005 12:56:41 PM · #23 |
It always bothers me when a challenge entry is decribed as "outside the box" simply because the challenge connection is weak or abstract. To me, "outside the box" means doing the unexpected or unusual, and meeting the challenge is a separate, unrelated issue. From this perspective, MOST of my successful entries are the result of thinking outside the box. I start with an idea that has a strong challenge connection, then apply creativity to make it interesting, funny, unique... anything but ordinary, but still with the goal of nailing the challenge description. Using an obscure, alternate definition for the challenge topic is a recipe for failure. Most voters expect the obvious definition, and "outside the box" should tackle that expected defintion with a fresh approach.
In an animals challenge, for example, the 'expected' will include basic, eye-level snapshots of pets (mostly), native birds, and zoo critters taken in broad daylight. Outside the box would include very unusual points of view or settings, underwater photos, extreme macros, night shots, or unique lighting... even if the animal is commonplace. A picture of a rock in an Animals challenge isn't outside the box... it's outside the challenge. Expect to bomb.
Message edited by author 2005-10-06 13:02:12. |
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10/06/2005 01:10:00 PM · #24 |
Originally posted by scalvert:
It always bothers me when a challenge entry is decribed as "outside the box" simply because the challenge connection is weak or abstract. To me, "outside the box" means doing the unexpected or unusual, and meeting the challenge is a separate, unrelated issue. From this perspective, MOST of my successful entries are the result of thinking outside the box. I start with an idea that has a strong challenge connection, then apply creativity to make it interesting, funny, unique... anything but ordinary, but still with the goal of nailing the challenge description. Using an obscure, alternate definition for the challenge topic is a recipe for failure. Most voters expect the obvious definition, and "outside the box" should tackle that expected defintion with a fresh approach.
In an animals challenge, for example, the 'expected' will include basic, eye-level snapshots of pets (mostly), native birds, and zoo critters taken in broad daylight. Outside the box would include very unusual points of view or settings, underwater photos, extreme macros, night shots, or unique lighting... even if the animal is commonplace. A picture of a rock in an Animals challenge isn't outside the box... it's outside the challenge. Expect to bomb. |
You're the poster child for effective, OOB thinking. You've got it nailed. It's your work I was thinking of when I wrote this, earlier:
"In other words, those who shoot "outside the box" are those whose interpretations of the challenge defy the common, or popular, or easy, interpretation. It's frequently the case that OOB entries win ribbons, interestingly enough, and here's why: if a GOOD photographer takes a SKILLFUL "wow" shot from a POV that's different from the nominally accepted viewpoint, and IF this POV bears an obvious relationship to the challenge nonetheless, the image will stand out from the crowd and do very well."
Keep up the good work!
Robt.
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10/06/2005 01:31:48 PM · #25 |
Heh. OOB
Animals - A dog bowl full of pebbles or water, with the name "Petunia" or "Peter" on the side and a sizeable rock with a leash around it, the lead lying crumpled in the foreground. Maybe a couple of chew toys and a bone thrown in for good measure. Title Choices: "Ambition" "Cheaper to Feed" "Makes a Great Pet" "Truly Domesticated"
Green - A box of M&M's on/in a background of Red ones. The box is empty and only shows a Single Green M&M inside. Title: "Inside the Box"
Yup. That's as good as I can think of for now and I guess you guys are right. A Rock might fit a Pets challenge, but would definitely be out of an Animals challenge. Too far of a stretch for me from a voter's POV. The Green picture CONTAINS red M&MS, but it's not a picture OF red M&M's. The subject is a Green one.
I also agree that there are far too many pictures submitted with far too little thought given to them. Should we make a checklist?
A: Is my picture directly related to the challenge in a way that is likely clear to any viewer regardless of their place of origin?
B: Is at least one of the sides of my picture 640 pixels?
C: Does my picture have a subject?
D: Is the subject of my picture in Focus? Or even close to in focus?
E: Have I actually read the challenge description and Challenge Rules? |
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