A photo by any other score would be as good...

Canon EF 70-200mm f/2.8L IS USM

09/16/2005 02:10:02 PM · #1

As I observe many who passionately follow their photo's scores I'm interested to see how many people take their score as an indication of how "good" or "bad" their photo is.

For example, someone will say "I'm scoring a 4.9. Dang it, I thought this one was good."

It's a subtle but interesting point that a lot of us equate the score with the worth of our photo. But photography is art and art is a piece of ourselves. It's really how we see the world. It's good to get feedback so we can improve our technique, but our art can't really be scored. What resonates with me, puts off the next person. What gets them jazzed, I find dull.

For example, I love negative space, lots of it. I often get comments back saying "too much wasted space" etc. Those comments are fine, the person who is viewing the picture is telling me their tastes, but it's not going to stop my from "wasting space" in the future. Why? Because I like it, and thats part of how I express myself.

Don't let scores and ribbons and popular opinion stop you from expressing your art in your voice. Your art isn't good or bad based on its popularity.

I guess what I'm getting at is know WHY you're shooting and then keep that as your focus.

"Excrement. That's what I think of Mr. J. Evans Pritchard. We're not laying pipe. We're talking about poetry. How can you describe poetry like American Bandstand? Oh, I like Byron. I give him a 42, but I can't dance to it......Be gone, J. Evans Pritchard, Ph.D!.....Keep ripping, gentlemen! This is a battle. A war. And the casualties could be your hearts and souls.....Armies of academics going forward, measuring poetry. No! We'll not have that here. No more Mr. J. Evans Pritchard. Now, in my class, you will learn to think for yourselves again. You will learn to savor words and language."

--- Mr. Keating, (Robin Williams) in Dead Poet's Society

strangeghost

Canon EOS-7D

Tamron SP AF 28-75mm f/2.8 XR Di for Canon

09/16/2005 02:15:09 PM · #2

I believe you have put your finger on one of the most important lessons available from this web site. Of course, it's all about improving too, but believing that there is a perfect correlation between quality and score is a mistake. Ribbons and high scores are one way of gauging a photo's appeal, but certainly not the only one, and hopefully not the most important one.

Great post ttreit!

BTW, You've prompted me to rent DPS this weekend. I haven't seen it for years. I'm going to watch it with my 13 year old (smartypants!).

RedOak

Canon EOS-20D

Canon EF 50mm f/1.8 II

09/16/2005 02:24:46 PM · #3

My opinion on the score system is that it tells me how good my picture is for a 'Mass market' appraisal. Judging if a picture would do well in publicity, magazines, billboards.

I must also say that there are way too many users who think snapping pictures here and there, and at the last minute before the end of challenge entry, will get good scores or good comments. Too many people do not understand that a good picture will take a few hours into thinking and preparation. I would never submit a picture 'at the last minute', then call it art because i can jump into photoshop and use some dodge and burn here and there, calling it 'Art'.

my 2cents.

LoudDog

Canon EF 17-40mm f/4.0L USM

09/16/2005 02:24:56 PM · #4

DPC is not the final authority on how good your photo is, but it is a good indicator.
Remember that most of the people here are photographers themselves and they will tend to be a little harsher critic of photography then a normal person. If the photos were judged by non-photographers I'd bet the scores would be higher and the placement would be different.

Also remember that meeting the challenge is part of the scoring here. Great photos do score lower when they do not meet the challenge.

ttreit

Canon EF 70-200mm f/2.8L IS USM

09/16/2005 02:30:21 PM · #5

Oh yeah don't get me wrong, I think DPC is a great tool and it has by far been the biggest help for me in my photography and video skills (I apply a lot of what I learned here to the video work I do). But inevitably you see people complain about their scoring or be hurt by it or whine about it or whatever, and I think some newer photographers may start to lose their own style by striving more for a ribbon than for improving their skills.

And two equally great photographers could have totally contradictory styles and offer conflicting advice to the novice. I know when I started I was frustrated when I saw "Love the negative space" right next to "Wow! Too much negative space!" :)

pawdrix

Nikon D700

Nikon AF Nikkor 85mm f/1.4D IF

09/16/2005 02:47:25 PM · #6

It all depends on why you're entering challenges.

If people don't understand what you are trying to accomplish it might not make complete sense to serve or subject your "art" or "voice" to a voting public.

Knowing what DPC voters value, in terms of look or technical prowess is interesting and helpful to me and well worth my efforts. There are some things that can be generally voted on with reasonable certainty and other things that people might have to guess at, that don't always fair as well.

What you call great art I might call, pure junk but a pleasing dof or more specifically, in focus or out of focus is something we might all see the same way.

People tend to complain about their art being misunderstood all the time here. Now, when something doesn't look right in a photo...back to the focus for example, if you presented something, out of focus intentionally, should the voter give you full point credit for your effort not knowing whether you had any clue or control over what you were doing or assume that you took a bad shot? If I assumed everyone knew exactly what they were doing, I might be handing out 10's for no good reason.

You do need to stick with the obvious photo-tangibles for starters and then branch out from there. With anonymous voting it's impossible to tell whether an "out there" image is pure genius or plain old crud.

donniev

Canon EF 24-70mm f/2.8L USM

09/16/2005 02:59:08 PM · #7

Originally posted by RedOak:

Too many people do not understand that a good picture will take a few hours into thinking and preparation.

my 2cents.

In general I agree with that but there are many exceptions. The only photo I ever had published was a pure accident. I was shooting portraits of my birds and one of them got startled and flew off just as I snapped the shutter. It turned out to be a nice shot of the bird in flight and took no planning at all. :-)

petrakka

09/16/2005 03:44:48 PM · #8

I think something no one has mentioned here is that much successful photography is intended to be viewed in series, and often displayed as such. Often a series of photographs are quite compelling, yet one image left to stand alone may fall kind of flat. (I think this is part of the reason why BradP's "daybreak" entry was so successful, as it conveyed a series even though it was one photograph...it was and still is one of my favorites on this site..but take any one frame out of that image and I bet the score would not be as high)

What I think happens here is the immediate impact of your image is judged, and for most people I don't think much more goes into it than that. I know for me it usually doesn't get any deeper than that.

If a photo doesn't strike me within the first seconds of viewing, it won't strike me later for the most part. It's only when photos are displayed in a series that I will pay more attention to the overall work, and each individual photo, because each one has a part in communicating.

An individual photo, if it doesn't communicate to you right away, I feel has failed.

Message edited by author 2005-09-16 15:45:26.

ttreit

Canon EF 70-200mm f/2.8L IS USM

09/16/2005 03:56:32 PM · #9

I agree about the series. I do a lot of video editing which means looking for LOTS of clips that tell a story. Because of that, every picture I look at I automatically think of in terms of what could be around it. Someone posted a shot the other day of some plain stairs and I immediately thought "apartment dwellers" and saw it in a series of hallways, apartment doors, ECUs of apartment numbers. Old ladies peeking out behind a chained door, etc.

Personally I don't think a picture has to stand alone perfectly in order to be interesting. I like to think of the potential too.

And I think all shots entered in a challenge need to meet the challenge, but they can do it in creative, non-traditional ways too.

Message edited by author 2005-09-16 15:56:54.

RedOak

Canon EOS-20D

Canon EF 50mm f/1.8 II

09/16/2005 04:01:43 PM · #10

Originally posted by donniev:

Originally posted by RedOak:

Too many people do not understand that a good picture will take a few hours into thinking and preparation.

my 2cents.

In general I agree with that but there are many exceptions. The only photo I ever had published was a pure accident. I was shooting portraits of my birds and one of them got startled and flew off just as I snapped the shutter. It turned out to be a nice shot of the bird in flight and took no planning at all. :-)

Well, you did plan on taking pictures of a bird, setup your gear and waited... that's planning. The fact that you got a Lucky shot as nothing to do with planning. You 'were' there to take pictures...

Its different from walking from work thinking about a challenge that calls for 'wheel' and taking a picture of a car moving across the street, thinking "hmm.. that'll do". And then complain because the picture is 'ok', but 'doesn't deserve a low 4.9 rating...'

That's what i meant.

Elemmennope

Canon EOS-300D Rebel

Canon EF 50mm f/1.8 II

09/16/2005 04:11:21 PM · #11

Oh absolutely, take it with a grain of salt. A couple of my favorite entries didn't score well at all, but it doesn't matter that much to me. They still have a lot of value to me personally, even if voters didn't really care for them. And I think they were good photos, just maybe not quite right for that particular challenge. A lot of voters have a really narrow definition of what's "meeting the challenge" and punish any other interpretation by voting low. *shrug* It's all in fun, don't take anything around here too seriously. Virtual ribbons, pshh. Who cares. As long as you're improving and learning, that's all that matters.

09/16/2005 04:15:28 PM · #12

A great pic can be there for you when you are not ready.You can compose a great pic.However.it's catching the moment and creating an image that draws people to look at it...for a space of time.not just"Nice pic" next.Different strokes I suppose.It's like music really.Negative space-silence in music.Toonoisy-creating atmosphere.etc.etc.It's in the eye of the beholder.Art is many things to all people.Scores are scores.Art is about feeling and expression.Not about concensus.That is all I have to say.Great site,great folks.Just understand each other.That's all you have to do.Blah Blah Blah!!!!! MODPROD.

saintaugust

Canon EOS-550D Rebel T2i

09/16/2005 04:20:03 PM · #13

i agree that art is an extension of oneself and do not take critism badly because of this.

However, there are a number of elements of a photo that can really impress me as a work of art. You can tell when someone has really thought out lighting, portrayed an idea with the shot, captured an emotional moment, ect. and technical quality IS important, even if you're going for a 'rougher' look. You can just tell when a photographer knows what they are doing, and it shows.

09/16/2005 04:24:58 PM · #14

Yes,I agree with Louddog.Great post.I am new to the site and often wonder at the insecurity of some challengers.ie"Oh too many entries,why bother"? My Lord have you forgotten yourselves or do you get off on instant gratification.Again That's all.MODPROD.

09/16/2005 04:28:30 PM · #15

Hey saintAugust,let's say you get 100 photographers too take a picture of a SprintCar.Some famous some not.The photog that understands the car and the culture will be the winner.Not the technician.Hope you understand what I am trying to say.MODPROD.