question about basic editing - DPChallenge Forums

Nikon AF-S DX NIKKOR 18-200mm f/3.5-5.6G ED VR II

09/13/2005 02:29:37 PM · #1

It says in the basic rules description that only adjustment layers are allowed. Part of my workflow is to make a copy for every time I use usm. Is that allowed or do I have to make all the "non-layerable" adjusments on the original background layer.

wavelength

Nikon AF Nikkor 50mm f/1.8D

09/13/2005 03:14:09 PM · #2

Unless you are a paying site member, the TOS says you can't use layers for adjustment.

mesmeraj

09/13/2005 03:16:55 PM · #3

where does the TOS say that?
i make layers for each step i take when i know i am doing more that curves and levels or i cant remember what i have done.

Canon EOS-20D

Tamron SP AF 28-75mm f/2.8 XR Di for Canon

09/13/2005 03:21:28 PM · #4

The only type of layers that are allowable in a basic challenge are adjustment layers. This means that there can be no pixel data in the layer, so just duplicating the layer is not allowed.

SJCarter

Canon EOS-7D

Canon EF 28-135mm f/3.5-5.6 IS USM

09/13/2005 04:49:29 PM · #5

I had a very similar question recently and found that (at least in MS Digital Image Pro 10) there are ways you can achieve basically the same thing and still perform them within the rules of Basic Editing. It involves a lot more steps and you won't get exactly the same result, but close. I would ask someone skilled in PS for the steps that they use.

gaurawa

Canon EOS-5D Mark II

Canon EF 24-105mm f/4.0L IS

09/13/2005 04:58:05 PM · #6

I am trying to think what can you achieve by copying the background (without selective editing) that you can't do with adjustment layers ?
In basic editing I normally use levels, curves, brightness/contrast, hue/saturation, selective color and they are all adjustment layers

09/13/2005 05:03:34 PM · #7

In Photoshop you can apply an action (USM say, or Gaussian Blur) and then go to "edit/fade xxxx" and it will allow you to fade the effect of the action just applied. This is exactly the same thing as making a copy of the BG layer, applying the action, fading the opacity of the layer, and then merging the layer back into the BG.

So that's how you work around that.

Personally I think this is a little backwards; when you are working in Photoshop without a lot of experience, you'll make a lot of mistakes. If the mistakes aren't confined to their own layers, you'll find yourself continually regressing your work and starting from scratch (or from where the mistake was made), and this is frustrating. On the other hand, a skilled user of Photoshop understands the interrelationships between these actions and is less likely to take a step that needs to be undone, so working from a single pixel layer is less of a problem for him/her.

It has always seemed to me that it would make more sense to allow pixel layers in basic but keep the proscription against using layer BLEND modes, which take a LOT of practice to master. This would allow neophytes to clone off duplicate BG layers and make their experiments on them, knowing they can just wipe out the layer later if it proved to have been a mistake without losing any adjustment layers that were added after sharpening, for example.

Here's something else to consider; as far as I can see there's nothing to keep you from starting work on a copy of the image, using pixel layers as I have described for Gaussian Blur and USM, say, working out what works best, then noting that down and starting over from scratch with a new copy to apply the actions "legally" directly on the original layer. You can then drag the adjustment layers over from the first, draft copy (these are "legal" layers) and they will duplicate themselves (legally) on the new copy :-)

Unless I'm missing something. Wouldn't be the first time :-)

Robt.

Canon EF 24-105mm f/4.0L IS

09/13/2005 05:04:26 PM · #8

Originally posted by gaurawa:

USM and Gaussian Blur are applied to layers containing pixels (that would be the BG layer in basic editing rules), and both are legal in basic editing.

R.

Message edited by author 2005-09-13 17:05:30.

gaurawa

Canon EOS-5D Mark II

09/13/2005 05:09:00 PM · #9

Originally posted by bear_music:

Originally posted by gaurawa:
I am trying to think what can you achieve by copying the background (without selective editing) that you can't do with adjustment layers ?
In basic editing I normally use levels, curves, brightness/contrast, hue/saturation, selective color and they are all adjustment layers

USM and Gaussian Blur are applied to layers containing pixels (that would be the BG layer in basic editing rules), and both are legal in basic editing.

R.

Oh thanks Robert. I have never applied gaussian blur in basic editing. As for USM I do that the last and keep checking my image while moving the % and radius bars to get what I want...normally 100% at 0.3pixels gives me desired results.
I do copy the background for all sorts of stuff in advanced editing though where I have added blur, do cloning, healing, dodge/burn or other stuff.

gaurawa

Canon EOS-5D Mark II

Canon EF 24-105mm f/4.0L IS

09/13/2005 05:11:00 PM · #10

Ok another related question..
What if I make 5 copies of the background ( with pixel information) but finally just use one of them whichever I like. that should be legal !!

Refwhett

Nikon AF-S DX NIKKOR 18-200mm f/3.5-5.6G ED VR II

09/13/2005 05:11:59 PM · #11

Thanks for the replies.
I use duplicate levels exactly for the reasons bear mentioned. I am pretty intermidate in ps and often am not sure about a specific editing action I do (usm, burning etc) and so like to do them on seperate layers to easily retrace my steps.
This time I just did everything on the original background.

09/13/2005 05:15:06 PM · #12

Originally posted by gaurawa:

Right. Next time you're doing that, try applying USM to what seems a slightly excessive degree then go to "edit/fade USM" and twiddle with the slider there until it looks exactly right. If you're not constrained by basic editing rules, just clone a copy of the base layer, name it "sharpen" and do your USM on that. This way when you come back to the image you have the option of adjusting the layer opacity/mode to tweak the USM, or toss it outright and start over if you think it needs changing.

I couldn't live without my shaprpening layer on the images I print, because the degree of sharpness I use varies both with the size I'm printing to and the surface I'm printing on. Matte papers look softer than glossy papers, for example, so I bump the USM for those. This is why I overcook the uSM on my sharpening layer and then fade the opacity back; it gives me easily-tweaked options when I'm printing.

R.

09/13/2005 05:21:49 PM · #13

Originally posted by gaurawa:

Ok another related question..
What if I make 5 copies of the background ( with pixel information) but finally just use one of them whichever I like. that should be legal !!

That assumes it's OK to have multiple layers in a workign copy as long as there is only the one pixel-containing layer in the finished copy, but I'm not sure that's true as the rules are written.

But you can just clone off 5 copies of the IMAGE itself and edit each one differently as far as pixel-editing goes. Nothing wrong with that if each copy only contains the one pixel layer. And adjustment layers can be dragged between open images and they will duplicate.

So hypothetically you can open an image and save-as a psd image called "Pepper", say. Then clone off 4 copies: Pepper_2, Pepper_3, etc. On the first one you can do your USM and your adjustment layers, say; then on the second one you can do a different USM and drag the adjustment layers across so they duplicate on that one. End result; 5 different images, all with identical adjustment layers but different degrees of USM.

Now, the SENSIBLE way to do this is with separate layers for each variation of the action, and turn off all but one to see the effect of the one left on... But as the rules are written, that's not allowed in basic editing, so just owrk on several variations of the image in separate files and you'll be fine.

R.

Refwhett

Nikon AF-S DX NIKKOR 18-200mm f/3.5-5.6G ED VR II

09/13/2005 05:27:15 PM · #14

One could also do usm and take a snapshot with the values in the title after each time, then undo the usm and try something else. One will then have several snaphots to flip quickly through, then choose the best settings and apply them. One file, one pixel layer, several versions available.

Canon EF-S 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6

09/13/2005 05:34:17 PM · #15

Originally posted by Refwhett:

Good point.

R.

Nitin

Canon EOS-300D Rebel

09/13/2005 05:35:09 PM · #16

Originally posted by gaurawa:

Ok another related question..
What if I make 5 copies of the background ( with pixel information) but finally just use one of them whichever I like. that should be legal !!

As long as the net results are reproducible using only adjustment layers, it has to be legal - which would the case in your scenario.

What is prohibhited in basic editing is non-normal-mode blending of layers, and merging layers with different pixel information.