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09/05/2005 11:16:04 AM · #1 |
I thought about waiting until after the voting for this (I didn't want to be accused of campaigning for my own picture), but there are others out there who are no doubt suffering as well and you can't quite tell which pic is mine from the info below. If one of the SC wants me to nix the post, I'd be happy to.
Let's look at the histogram of my entry...
Looks quite contrasty doesn't it? Does this look like a normal histogram? Still not convinced because it is in color? Let's check out the color channels...
  
The entire picture is composed of pixels of two contrasting colors. The dynamic range of each color is, as well, limited and contrasted.
Remember people...
blue contrasts yellow
red contrasts green
So if you don't like my composition or subject, then say so, but don't ask me where the contrast in my picture is... |
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09/05/2005 11:22:40 AM · #2 |
Looked at mine and it's a perfect bell curve, except clipped on the darkside. Guess I missed the boat. It's going to be interesting to look at the winners histograms. This is way too funny. I bet now everyone is going to look at each histogram to see if they are "contrasty".
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09/05/2005 11:27:34 AM · #3 |
In photography, contrast refers to luminance extremes, not complementary hues. Your photo may well be contrasty and have complementary colors, but do not confuse one with the other! I can well visualize a photo having extremes of color and still be dull because of low contrast.
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09/05/2005 11:32:14 AM · #4 |
While I applaud your efforts in this education endeavor, short of posting the histogram of your picture next to your photo--it is all a subjective matter.
For the record, without looking at my histogram prior to my entry I did follow the guidelines you laid out above. Mostly because traditional high contrast B&W photos are so contrasty you can almost feel the contrast. I toned my down (just a tad) to appeal to the DPCer who is not in tune to traditionally done high contrast while still maintaining high contrast in an appealing package.
Next time I'm doing it how *I* want to do it. Not according to what the average voter wants. Since I'm like George Costanza and I need to try to do opposite of my initial gut reaction says to do (like I should've done in the SHOES entry...don't get me started on the color fluctuation from my PS to DPC...) |
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09/05/2005 11:36:51 AM · #5 |
Originally posted by ElGordo:
In photography, contrast refers to luminance extremes, not complementary hues. Your photo may well be contrasty and have complementary colors, but do not confuse one with the other! I can well visualize a photo having extremes of color and still be dull because of low contrast. |
I still believe my photo would qualify with your limited definition. The RGB histogram shows large humps at the two extremes. Only a sillouette on a white background is going to have no pixels in between. My picture has fewer "midrange" pixels than "extreme" pixels and the midrange ones are, likewise, segregated into a limited bandwidth. |
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09/05/2005 12:33:11 PM · #6 |
Originally posted by ElGordo:
In photography, contrast refers to luminance extremes, not complementary hues. Your photo may well be contrasty and have complementary colors, but do not confuse one with the other! I can well visualize a photo having extremes of color and still be dull because of low contrast. |
I completely disagree with this statement. While it's true that extreme contrast in luminance values is ONE hallmark of contrast in photography, there's a well-established precedent, much discussed and taught in schools, for using COLOR contrast in COLOR photography to produce high-contrast effects that are analogous to extremes of luminosity in B/W images.
From a viewer's perspective, a bright green circle centered on a bright red BG produces as much "contrast" as a black circle on a white BG. But in the color example, the LUMINANCE of the two colors might be virtually identical; the image would have a huge peak in the middle and no outlying values on the histogram.
It's true, however, that a green circle on a blue background would show little contrast; the colors are not opposed to each other on the color wheel and do not contrast visually. They MIGHT comntrast if one were very dark and the other very light, but that would be luminance contrast, not color contrast.
Robt.
Message edited by author 2005-09-05 12:35:03.
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09/05/2005 12:47:58 PM · #7 |
Originally posted by bear_music:
From a viewer's perspective, a bright green circle centered on a bright red BG produces as much "contrast" as a black circle on a white BG. But in the color example, the LUMINANCE of the two colors might be virtually identical; the image would have a huge peak in the middle and no outlying values on the histogram.
It's true, however, that a green circle on a blue background would show little contrast; the colors are not opposed to each other on the color wheel and do not contrast visually. They MIGHT comntrast if one were very dark and the other very light, but that would be luminance contrast, not color contrast.
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As usual, bear, a point well stated. But which one would be HIGH contrast?
I'm only trying to be a little bit of a smarty. If I were color blind, then in the example of the green circle on the red background, would I perceive "contrast" (high or not)?
Personally, I think that entries in the challenge with contrasting blue and yellow (whether they are also dark and light) provide color contrast in the way you describe. Yellow and purple, blue and orange, also would fit. But...to be "high" contrast, I think there has to be something more than the color wheel at work.
On the flip-side, there are black and white images that are only black and only white--very graphic in their presentation.
For me, high contrast lies somewhere between these two types of images. |
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09/05/2005 01:00:19 PM · #8 |
Originally posted by KaDi:
Originally posted by bear_music:
From a viewer's perspective, a bright green circle centered on a bright red BG produces as much "contrast" as a black circle on a white BG. But in the color example, the LUMINANCE of the two colors might be virtually identical; the image would have a huge peak in the middle and no outlying values on the histogram.
It's true, however, that a green circle on a blue background would show little contrast; the colors are not opposed to each other on the color wheel and do not contrast visually. They MIGHT comntrast if one were very dark and the other very light, but that would be luminance contrast, not color contrast.
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As usual, bear, a point well stated. But which one would be HIGH contrast?
I'm only trying to be a little bit of a smarty. If I were color blind, then in the example of the green circle on the red background, would I perceive "contrast" (high or not)?
Personally, I think that entries in the challenge with contrasting blue and yellow (whether they are also dark and light) provide color contrast in the way you describe. Yellow and purple, blue and orange, also would fit. But...to be "high" contrast, I think there has to be something more than the color wheel at work.
On the flip-side, there are black and white images that are only black and only white--very graphic in their presentation.
For me, high contrast lies somewhere between these two types of images. |
For sure, the stated example would be no-contrast for someone with red-green color deficiency. And by DEFINITION a pure black/white image is high-contrast, period. You may not consider it the most aesthetic approach to a high-contrast photo (I agree with you there) but it's DEFINITELY high contrast.
R.
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09/05/2005 01:04:44 PM · #9 |
Originally posted by bear_music:
Originally posted by ElGordo:
In photography, contrast refers to luminance extremes, not complementary hues. Your photo may well be contrasty and have complementary colors, but do not confuse one with the other! I can well visualize a photo having extremes of color and still be dull because of low contrast. |
I completely disagree with this statement. While it's true that extreme contrast in luminance values is ONE hallmark of contrast in photography, there's a well-established precedent, much discussed and taught in schools, for using COLOR contrast in COLOR photography to produce high-contrast effects that are analogous to extremes of luminosity in B/W images.
From a viewer's perspective, a bright green circle centered on a bright red BG produces as much "contrast" as a black circle on a white BG. But in the color example, the LUMINANCE of the two colors might be virtually identical; the image would have a huge peak in the middle and no outlying values on the histogram.
It's true, however, that a green circle on a blue background would show little contrast; the colors are not opposed to each other on the color wheel and do not contrast visually. They MIGHT comntrast if one were very dark and the other very light, but that would be luminance contrast, not color contrast.
Robt. |
I disagree, Bear. Observe the two images below. Both have identical hues but one has high contrast and the other low contrast. IE., hue does not provide the contrast but contrast is provided by luminence. Complementary colors, as in this case, provide a perceived difference that some may construe as contrast, but without the luminence factor the contrast is perceived as very low. As KaDi stated, a color blind person may see no contrast at all in either image. However, an image consisting of two identical hues of differing brightness would readily be perceived as having contrast. LUMINENCE is the factor.
 
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09/05/2005 01:31:41 PM · #10 |
Originally posted by ElGordo:
I disagree, Bear. Observe the two images below. Both have identical hues but one has high contrast and the other low contrast. IE., hue does not provide the contrast but contrast is provided by luminence. Complementary colors, as in this case, provide a perceived difference that some may construe as contrast, but without the luminence factor the contrast is perceived as very low. As KaDi stated, a color blind person may see no contrast at all in either image. However, an image consisting of two identical hues of differing brightness would readily be perceived as having contrast. LUMINENCE is the factor.
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But Bear's point, I believe, is that the luminance contrast between the first two colors is zero. They both have a luminance value of 255 (in their respective color channel). So while a B&W picture with every pixel having a luminance of 255 would merely be a white box (and thus very HIGH luminance but very LOW contrast), a color picture (by your own admission) can have every pixel have a luminance value of 255 and still be HIGH contrast. |
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09/05/2005 01:47:32 PM · #11 |
Don't forget the third dimension: Saturation. We all agree that for a B&W image to look contrasty, the histogram has to have high and low peaks with little in between. But a color image with a flat (or bell-curve) histogram will not look contrasty unless the hues are "opposite" (yellow-blue, red-green) AND the saturation is high.
Gordon's example shows this really well, those two have the same hue and undoubtedly very similar luminance, but obviously very different saturation. |
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09/05/2005 02:58:03 PM · #12 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Originally posted by ElGordo:
I disagree, Bear. Observe the two images below. Both have identical hues but one has high contrast and the other low contrast. IE., hue does not provide the contrast but contrast is provided by luminence. Complementary colors, as in this case, provide a perceived difference that some may construe as contrast, but without the luminence factor the contrast is perceived as very low. As KaDi stated, a color blind person may see no contrast at all in either image. However, an image consisting of two identical hues of differing brightness would readily be perceived as having contrast. LUMINENCE is the factor.
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But Bear's point, I believe, is that the luminance contrast between the first two colors is zero. They both have a luminance value of 255 (in their respective color channel). So while a B&W picture with every pixel having a luminance of 255 would merely be a white box (and thus very HIGH luminance but very LOW contrast), a color picture (by your own admission) can have every pixel have a luminance value of 255 and still be HIGH contrast. |
No. Just perceived contrast, if your eyes are color sensitive. Bear's example of a pure white and a pure black image illustrates the point perfectly: The pure white is maximum luminence of all three (RGB) colors while the pure black is zero luminence, ie. perfect contrast.
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09/05/2005 03:44:56 PM · #13 |
Well, I just pulled out the dictionary for giggles & grins...
contrast: (one definition of many) The difference in brightness between the light and dark areas of a picture, such as a photograph or video image.
contrasty: Having or producing sharp contrasts between light and dark areas in photography.
Interesting note - color nor B/W is mentioned in either definition.
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09/05/2005 03:51:55 PM · #14 |
Originally posted by ElGordo:
In photography, contrast refers to luminance extremes, not complementary hues. Your photo may well be contrasty and have complementary colors, but do not confuse one with the other! I can well visualize a photo having extremes of color and still be dull because of low contrast. |
bingo! I am seeing lots of complementary colors that are not high contrast...I am voting low..what can I say |
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09/05/2005 04:01:49 PM · #15 |
Originally posted by glad2badad:
Well, I just pulled out the dictionary for giggles & grins...
contrast: (one definition of many) The difference in brightness between the light and dark areas of a picture, such as a photograph or video image.
contrasty: Having or producing sharp contrasts between light and dark areas in photography.
Interesting note - color nor B/W is mentioned in either definition. |
My dictionary also includes:"the act of distinguishing by comparing differnces",and "the perceptual effect of the juxtaposition of very different colors."
I'd also like people to not forget about subject contrast. I hope no one has this example. What about a devil and angel? I would say they contrast. Maybe love and hate. Sharp and dull. The list could go one. Physical subjects and emotions/concepts.
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