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08/31/2005 05:55:38 AM · #1 |
With the Governor of Louisiana ordering the complete evacuation of New Orleans on Tuesday after levees failed, and officials sceptical about plans to rebuild, will one of our most picturesque cities go down as a New Atlantis?
Whatever happens, it will never be the same New Orleans again.
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08/31/2005 06:15:09 AM · #2 |
| I take it all DPC'ers from that area have checked in and are all in one piece? |
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08/31/2005 06:21:15 AM · #3 |
I'm still missing a friend from there. I talked to her for a few seconds while the storm was hitting at about 7:30am and she said she was OK. That was before the levees broke. Perhaps when they release the prisoners people from the stadium we will hear from her.
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08/31/2005 06:28:00 AM · #4 |
I just found this. It was a prediction for exactly what has happed by the year 2100. The prediction was made by the University of New Orleans in 2000. Five years ago.
They thought it would happen over a much longer period.
Message edited by author 2005-08-31 06:30:58.
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08/31/2005 06:42:01 AM · #5 |
| ay-yi-yi, martin, what a read! |
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08/31/2005 06:47:28 AM · #6 |
That article actually suggests that the whole world is 'sinking'.
"New Orleans is sinking three feet per century--eight times faster than the worldwide rate of only 0.4 feet per century"
Might it not be that whilst NO certainly is subsiding, actually the sea level is rising?
E |
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08/31/2005 06:51:41 AM · #7 |
Originally posted by nsbca7:
I just found this. It was a prediction for exactly what has happed by the year 2100. The prediction was made by the University of New Orleans in 2000. Five years ago.
They thought it would happen over a much longer period. |
Yes but in the article they are talking about a general sinking of the land not a bloody great hurricane taking out the levees! That might just make a difference to their predictions!
My thoughts to everyone in the affected areas and anyone who has family and friends out there.
P
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08/31/2005 07:00:55 AM · #8 |
The Tragically Hip made the same prediction even before that.
New Orleans is sinking and I don't want to swim...
Seriously though, that must be one scary place to be.
There is a typhoon raging over my head right now in Taipei. Typhoon Talim is running around 180km/h winds. It is scary enough knowing that I am safe.
Knowing that my city was sitting rather precariously overtop a system of caverns with the supports made from peat which has been burning for a LONG time would be really freaky.
I hope your friend is ok! |
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08/31/2005 08:09:38 AM · #9 |
It's sad to see that New Orleans suffered such horrendous damage from the hurricane, but this disaster was bound to happen. Just a matter of time. You can't expect a city below sea level to remain intact. The city, it's officials and residentrs were lucky to get away with it for as long as they did.
Something else I don't understand is why buildings aren't built stronger against the effects of wind. The US's Tornado Alley as well as it's Gulf Coast and southern Atlantic shore should have higher building standards for building strength for wind damage. Buildings should be made to be able to withstand punishing weather. Yes, buildings would cost more up front but at least you wouldn't have to rebuild so much after each hurricane or tornado. In some parts of the world buildings are engineered to resist earthquakes, why can't they be engineered to resist hurricane winds? Just a thought.
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08/31/2005 08:47:28 AM · #10 |
First I hope everyone from that area is ok.It is really sad!! New Orleans is a great historical place in the US and somewhere I've always wanted to go. I'm sure it will take a while for everyone to check in with friends and family and I will keep all in the area in my prayers.
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08/31/2005 09:01:23 AM · #11 |
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08/31/2005 09:15:54 AM · #12 |
Originally posted by Beagleboy:
It's sad to see that New Orleans suffered such horrendous damage from the hurricane, but this disaster was bound to happen. Just a matter of time. You can't expect a city below sea level to remain intact. The city, it's officials and residentrs were lucky to get away with it for as long as they did.
Something else I don't understand is why buildings aren't built stronger against the effects of wind. The US's Tornado Alley as well as it's Gulf Coast and southern Atlantic shore should have higher building standards for building strength for wind damage. Buildings should be made to be able to withstand punishing weather. Yes, buildings would cost more up front but at least you wouldn't have to rebuild so much after each hurricane or tornado. In some parts of the world buildings are engineered to resist earthquakes, why can't they be engineered to resist hurricane winds? Just a thought. |
I agree! Its all about money. Building codes are only for those who can't pay the bribe.
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08/31/2005 09:17:25 AM · #13 |
It's all quite amazing and unbelievable to me. I'm supposed to be in New Orleans from October 30 to November 3 for a conference. I just took a peek at the New Orleans Marriot website and it says, "This hotel is closed until further notice due to Hurricance Katrina."
I have faith that the ingenuity of US engineers will get the levees repaired and save the city. But I wonder how long it will take and what the losses will be. Such a historic place, such a shame!
:-(
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08/31/2005 09:25:52 AM · #14 |
A State official was quoted on MSNBC after being asked a question about the future/rebuild of New Orleans had this answer, There may not be a NEW-New Orleans".
I found that to be a powerful statement. Possibly made in frustration and confusion but could be very true. Levee systems are not going to work there. We see that now and more breaches of levees is not out of the question with the build up of water and pressure. |
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08/31/2005 09:35:31 AM · #15 |
Originally posted by SDW65:
There may not be a NEW-New Orleans".
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This is macabre, because it reminds me of the TV comic Futurama - which plays in New New York.
For what concerns stronger buildings: What would you prefer - building a cheap house that will probably collapse with the next hurricane, or an expensive house which, if you're lucky, under certain circumstances, will cost "only" as much to restaurate after a storm as to build a new cheap one.
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08/31/2005 09:41:20 AM · #16 |
I watched much coverage last night and the pics show amazing devastation. They had an expert on and he described the waters - snakes and aligators from the bayou, sewage, rotting food (from stores, homes), chemicals (from businesses, homes, stores), gasoline (from EVERY underground tank at every gas station..gas floats on water), used motor oil, the dead (cats, rats, bugs, and likely people). Since almost everyone burried in NO is buried above grouind, you have an issues there. Health maybe, re-interrment definitely. He says the mosquitos will begin breeding uncontrollably soon. Remember, this is a WARM place - likley 90 degrees and humnid. The water is NO place to be.
Many buildings are under 10-20 feet of water. After 12 hours, so says the expert, you're better off to tear it down. We are well beyond the 12 hours now. Also, as the water recedes, it leaves behind a film of what was in the water - mud, petroleum, germs.
he brought up the issue of housing a million people until the city is rebuilt - i mean, there ar NO houses left habitable. There are NO jobs at all. they have no idea how long it would take to pump the city dry if and when the levees are fixed. Then there is hte matter of where to put the debris.
i say abandon it. perhaps is a few years it can be the American Venice. Till then, give everyone a check for their 'life' (property, belongings, etc) and tell them move on. it'll be cheaper and faster that way.
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08/31/2005 09:48:51 AM · #17 |
It is going to take a very long time, if they even can ever rebulid the city. Now, though sad, The city is gone and it's hard but everyone has to realize they are not going back. I don't know how they will handle a tragedy of this size but we will certainly learn what we are really made of. I didn't really know how bad it all ways till this morning, I hadn't watched the news or anything. So right now I'm deeply saddened, for everyone, it's just horrible. I can't even talk about it anymore! Sorry
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08/31/2005 09:55:08 AM · #18 |
| Do I understand this correctly, and if so why does the News not mention it. New Orleans is below sea level. The levees broke and the basin filled up. SO this is not a matter of waiting for flood waters to subside or run off elsewhere. All that water will have to be PUMPED back out. Correct? Wont that take forever? |
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08/31/2005 09:57:24 AM · #19 |
This is such an amazingly huge disaster; we'll be talking about it years and years from now, and the people affected by it have had their lives changed forever. Every time I turn the news on, the situation seems to have gotten even worse.
I'm very curious to see what our government's response will be to the disaster. Here's what has bugged me in recent years. Last fall, we felt the effects of Hurricane Ivan here in the Pittsburgh area, and a couple of our communities were nearly entirely underwater (Carnegie and Millvale in particular).
People from those communities had to fight tooth and nail to get any assistance from the government, and from what I understand, the best anyone got was a low-interest loan to help them rebuild.
Just a few months later, the tsunami struck half-way around the world. Our government provided millions upon millions of dollars in aid, with no expectation that it be will paid back. Correct me if I'm wrong, but we basically sent tons of aid and money overseas in order to help the victims, no strings attached.
I have no problem with helping those victims; that was a horrible, unthinkable tragedy. But it pains me to see that we can't help our own people beyond offering loans. We seem to do a pretty pathetic job of helping our own people in times of need. |
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08/31/2005 10:02:41 AM · #20 |
Originally posted by emorgan49:
All that water will have to be PUMPED back out. Correct? Wont that take forever? |
About 9 weeks according to this study after Hurricane Ivan missed Louisiana.
In this hypothetical storm scenario, it is estimated that it would take nine weeks to pump the water out of the city, and only then could assessments begin to determine what buildings were habitable or salvageable. Sewer, water, and the extensive forced drainage pumping systems would be damaged. National authorities would be scrambling to build tent cities to house the hundreds of thousands of refugees unable to return to their homes and without other relocation options. In the aftermath of such a disaster, New Orleans would be dramatically different, and likely extremely diminished, from what it is today. |
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08/31/2005 10:04:07 AM · #21 |
Originally posted by emorgan49:
Do I understand this correctly, and if so why does the News not mention it. New Orleans is below sea level. The levees broke and the basin filled up. SO this is not a matter of waiting for flood waters to subside or run off elsewhere. All that water will have to be PUMPED back out. Correct? Wont that take forever? |
You are correct. New Orleans is on the average 20 feet below sea level and requires the worlds most elaborate pumping systems to just keep it from flooding in even everyday rain situations.
New Orleans levees keep the city from flooding and what is happening know is there are at least to breaches in the levee system and pumps are failing.
If they can not get the breaches plugged then the city will fill up to the level of the lake which is on average 20 feet above New Orleans. The last I heard (late last night) was if they can't get the levees plugged the water in New Orleans could reach 3 feet above sea level, which would put it under at least 23 feet of water.
As I am typing this fox news is reporting the water levels are increasing at this time and increasing fast and that we will not even get a grasp on the devastation in New Orleans for another 72 hours at least. The problem with fixing the levees is that as they fix it, the smaller the gap the greater the pressure which could cause other breaches.
Message edited by author 2005-08-31 10:05:54. |
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08/31/2005 10:09:32 AM · #22 |
From what i have heard, the plan to fix the breaches is to drop sandbags from helicopters. Gonna take a lot as one beech was reportd as being 200 feet across.
Also, these levees I think are earthen dams - piles of dirt. If you let both sides soak in water, does not that then saturate the levee and make it a pile of mud, that will easily collapse? There might be more to it than that, but when i irrigate my garden that is whtt happens on a smaller scale.
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08/31/2005 10:10:20 AM · #23 |
New Orleans
Why such a disaster? In part, there is much question toward the state and local governments as to why none of the known issues were addressed:
1) Levee's - why were these at what was known to be too low of a level? why were these still made of dirt?
These should have been upgraded. They have been stating the known inadequacy of the dikes and levees for a couple decades. Now it's much too late.
Stupidity, politics, mis-applied environmentalism, and the attitude to pinch a penny and lose a dollar has led to the cities demise.
2) Pumping stations....why were these structures NOT elevated. Had the pumping structures and related generators been on simple steel/cement framed structures to elevate them they would still be pumping out water as we speak.
3) Electrical systems - why are their live power lines. Why do we not have the ability to "turn off" the power grid during such situations in a controlled and safe manner. Live electrical wires has cause much difficulty for rescuers.
In truth, the statement that they will likely NOT rebuild New Orleans is probably accurate. There is just too much devestation. My likely guess is that they'll try to preserve some of the oldest historic areas such as the French quarter as best they can. The rest of the city they will fill in with landfill, essentially raising the sea level by some 10-20ft. (If this sounds crazy to you, it's actually a quite common practice. It was done in San Franscisco and even my small city of New Haven has an immense area that is built on what was in fact fill.
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08/31/2005 10:44:34 AM · #24 |
Originally posted by theSaj:
New Orleans
These should have been upgraded. They have been stating the known inadequacy of the dikes and levees for a couple decades. Now it's much too late.
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In fact they were recently upgraded - raised 15 feet? maybe 10, within the last few years. Obviously that wasn't enough. |
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08/31/2005 10:58:07 AM · #25 |
| I heard that most of the pumps had not been upgraded and were actually below sea level. |
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