Heads-up to VoIP users - DPChallenge Forums

Tamron AF 28-300mm f/3.5-6.3 XR Di LD Aspherical IF for Canon

08/25/2005 06:25:24 AM · #1

VoIP users may be cut off
If you use VoIP you need to read this New Release.

Vonage Holdings Corp., the biggest VoIP carrier with more than 800,000 subscribers, told The Associated Press Wednesday that 96 percent of its customer base have responded to the company's notices about 911 risks. But that still means as many as 31,000 accounts would need to be shut off as early as Tuesday.

mesmeraj

08/25/2005 11:34:51 PM · #2

bumping

i knew but other VoIP users might not...

photodude

08/25/2005 11:40:48 PM · #3

Another example of too much government. Let's see if I have this service and don't aknowledge that my 911 service might not work properly, my vendor has to shut my phone off.

Of course then I wouldnt be able to call ANYONE!!!

Where do we find these geniuses? When it comes to government - Less Is More!!!

Tamron SP AF 28-75mm f/2.8 XR Di for Canon

08/25/2005 11:59:06 PM · #4

not sure if many of you know why these VoIP are shutting down service until the people read the 911 service agreement. This is a VERY critical issue.

The problem is 911 service not working properly, its Not set up at all unless you specifically request it. But in recent months that is changing.

Here in Houston a house was being robbed, the little girl pick up the phone to call 911 and she got a recording that 911 could not be dialed from that phone. so se went into the next room to try another phone and got the same recording. Mean while her parrents are down stairs being threatened and beat. The parents, in a news interview, said they did NOT know about NOT being able to contact 911 from Vonage. Vonage did not tell them 911 service was NOT available. After the robery and after the police left (a neighbor had to call 911 ) they went to the Vonage web site and took them about an hour to find out anything about NOT having 911 service. Even the local news station got involved and had the same issue with finding Vonages 911 policy.

The fact that VoIP companies put that 911 service is NOT availabel in small print and did NOT properly notify its customers of this is the reason the government is stepping in. I feel the Government stepped in WAY too late.

Im in the wireless industry and we are under extreamly strict order by the government to provide 911 service for ANY phone that can access out network. Even if it is a stolen phone.

Canon EOS-20D

08/26/2005 12:26:46 AM · #5

I'm guessing Vonage has either already changed their ways or these people didn't have a clue because when I signed up, it was made crystal clear how the 911 procedures worked and what I needed to do.

08/26/2005 12:59:42 AM · #6

Originally posted by mk:

I'm guessing Vonage has either already changed their ways or these people didn't have a clue because when I signed up, it was made crystal clear how the 911 procedures worked and what I needed to do.

yes they with in the last few months changed their ways due to many complaints, nation wide, about 911 service and how hard it was to find out about it.

James

Canon EF-S 10-22mm f/3.5-4.5 USM

08/26/2005 01:05:20 AM · #7

more can be found here

Vonage 911 proplems

Some More info

James

Message edited by author 2005-08-26 01:05:35.

srdanz

Canon EOS-5D Mark IV

08/26/2005 01:37:02 AM · #8

Is there anyone here from telecom industry to give technical (not political) answer on why doesn't 911 work from VoIP, and what is required?

Tamron AF 28-300mm f/3.5-6.3 XR Di LD Aspherical IF for Canon

08/26/2005 01:39:46 AM · #9

Originally posted by photodude:

I agree that less in more when it comes to government BUT in this case they are looking out for you. Government is not always bad. What if they did nothing and peoples lives were effected because they were taken by small print and omission on the part of a carrier? We then would be asking the government why didn't they step in and stop this because they knew about it. Something to think about.

Message edited by author 2005-08-26 01:42:05.

Tamron AF 28-300mm f/3.5-6.3 XR Di LD Aspherical IF for Canon

08/26/2005 01:50:02 AM · #10

Originally posted by srdanz:

Is there anyone here from telecom industry to give technical (not political) answer on why doesn't 911 work from VoIP, and what is required?

Because VoIP is not a "TRUE 911 System". It will not call your local 911 center when you dial those numbers instead it calls a third party which then forwards your call to your local 911 or E911 center.

Also these third party companies creates a delay in response to the emergency. You dial 911 it goes to the third party company they then has to forward your number to your local 911 center. By doing this your 911 or E911 center will not know your phone number or address. So if you have an emergency that you are unable to provide the address or phone number you 911 or E911 center will not know where to respond. All this could add time to the response time or in the most extreme case help will not arrive.

EDIT:
A snippet form Vonage TOS:
1. EMERGENCY SERVICES - 911 DIALING
1.1 Non-Availability of Traditional 911 or E911 Dialing Service. The Service does not support traditional 911 or E911 access to emergency services in all locations. Where we do not offer traditional 911 or E911 access, we offer a feature known as "911 Dialing" which is a limited emergency calling service available only on Vonage-certified Devices or Equipment. The 911 Dialing feature cannot be used in conjunction with a Vonage Soft Phone or Virtual Numbers. Our 911 Dialing feature is not automatic; you must separately take affirmative steps, as described in this Agreement and on our website, to register the address where you will use the Services in order to activate the 911 Dialing feature. You must do this for each Vonage phone number that you obtain. The 911 Dialing feature of the Service is different in a number of important ways from traditional 911 or E911 service as described on our website page for 911 Dialing under "Features," and below. You shall inform any household residents, guests and other third persons who may be present at the physical location where you utilize the Service of (i) the non-availability of traditional 911 or E911, and (ii) the important differences in and limitations of the Vonage 911 Dialing feature as compared with traditional 911 or E911 dialing. The documentation that accompanies each Device that you purchase should include a sticker concerning the potential non-availability of traditional 911 or E911 dialing (the "911 Sticker"). It is your responsibility, in accordance with the instructions that accompany each Device, to place the 911 Sticker on each Device that you use with the Service. If you did not receive a 911 Sticker with your Device, or you require additional 911 Stickers, please contact our customer care department at 1-VONAGE-HELP.
1.4 How Emergency Personnel are Contacted. We contract with a third party to use the address of your registered location to determine the nearest emergency response center and then forward your call to a general number at that center. When the center receives your call, the operator will not have your address and may not have your phone number. You must therefore provide your address and phone number in order to get help. Some local emergency response centers may decide not to have their general numbers answered by live operators 24 hours a day. If we learn that this is the case, we will send your call instead to a national emergency calling center and a trained agent will contact an emergency center near you to dispatch help. You hereby authorize us to disclose your name and address to third-party service providers, including, without limitation, call routers, call centers and public service answering points, for the purpose of dispatching emergency services personnel to your registered location.

Message edited by author 2005-08-26 02:04:43.

mesmeraj

08/26/2005 02:04:45 AM · #11

Originally posted by srdanz:

Is there anyone here from telecom industry to give technical (not political) answer on why doesn't 911 work from VoIP, and what is required?

here the answer in a simple way.
I live in a small town in SE KY, my VOIP number is area coded to a city 3 hrs drive away, because they don't buy exchanges for small towns.
In fact i can choose my number to be in any city, even Timbuktu.
So they don't know which route center to send your call to based on your phones area code which it how it works with a regular phone line.

We are having a whole lot of problems with this 911 thing becaus eour house/road isnt on any national map. But i am very glad they are enforcing the law.

Nikon AF-S DX Zoom-Nikkor 18-70mm f/3.5-4.5G IF-ED

08/26/2005 08:08:17 AM · #12

Im in the wireless industry and the reason it is not working and or its hard to get it to work is VoIP does not have a central office simmilar to the Bell companies

You home is wired to a Central Office (CO). that CO has a Switch that stores your number or there is another peice of hardware called an HLR (Home Location Register) which is a database which stores you phone number and calling features. When you make a call the first place your call goes to is the central office you are wired to. Based on the digits you dial the Switch will look at the dialed numbers and determine where your call needs to be routed. THen it will direct your call to larger Central offices to hit the right lines to deliver your call to the number you called. Wether its a land line or wireless. This is a function called call routing.

the number 911 is NOT an actual number, but just an abbreviation. each City or county will have seperate PSAP's Public Service answering point. So when you call 911 from your home you get the 911 center for your area. Now in large cities like houston, if you live out of the city of houston, but in Harris County your call goes to the Harris County 911 center Not the city of Houston center.

Wireless companies do the same thing, but the 911 center that is called is based on the cell towers location your phone originated the call on. When a wireless company has over 400 towers that spread out of many many counties its a tough job to make sure each tower has the correct programing to get you to the closest 911 call center.

VoIP companies are not able to provide all the same call routing that the bell companies do because your address is NOT tied you your number. You dont have a Local Central offie that your phone is tied to. Your VoIP call could travel the net and hit a server in Utah to call your neighbor in Ohio. So this presents a HUGE problem for providing 911 service. The translations (programming) would be a night mare and have to be done individually per each Voip phone number. Unless the Voip Companies set up their calling servers in the very same way the Bells and wireles companies do.

Also the Bell companies are not wanting to provide the agreements with the VoIP companies in fear they will lose too many customers to lower cost VoIP telephone providers. So

Dose this help explain why is does not work?

James

Gordon

RIM BlackBerry Curve

Canon EF 85mm f/1.8 USM

08/26/2005 08:39:02 AM · #13

Originally posted by srdanz:

Is there anyone here from telecom industry to give technical (not political) answer on why doesn't 911 work from VoIP, and what is required?

Sign up for VoIP on your laptop. Fly across the country. Your VoIP number stays the same. 911 needs to be routed to a local police force. There is no reliable way to indicate where an IP address/ computer physically is and hence where a VoIP call is being made from.

It is also why all new cell phones are having GPS trackers built in. Or at least one of the reasons - better location of the unit than is provided by cell tower triangulation.

Message edited by author 2005-08-26 08:40:11.

conglett

Nikon D70

08/26/2005 08:40:23 AM · #14

So I signed up for Vonage as a supplemental phone service to evaluate if I want to eliminate Qwest, and went throught he whole 911 registration. My question is how can I check it without calling 911 and creating a false alarm?

Tamron AF 28-300mm f/3.5-6.3 XR Di LD Aspherical IF for Canon

08/26/2005 08:46:02 AM · #15

Originally posted by conglett:

Most municipalities will allow you to verify that your 911 or E911 system is working.

Sigma 24-70mm f/2.8 EX Aspherical DF for Canon

08/26/2005 09:04:03 AM · #16

Originally posted by Gordon:

Originally posted by srdanz:
Is there anyone here from telecom industry to give technical (not political) answer on why doesn't 911 work from VoIP, and what is required?

Sign up for VoIP on your laptop. Fly across the country. Your VoIP number stays the same. 911 needs to be routed to a local police force. There is no reliable way to indicate where an IP address/ computer physically is and hence where a VoIP call is being made from.

It is also why all new cell phones are having GPS trackers built in. Or at least one of the reasons - better location of the unit than is provided by cell tower triangulation.

It will be many years before every cell phone owner has a GPS enabled phone. So in the meantime wireless companies are using the triangulation method to locate a cell phone. the location by triangulation is getting better. However there are not very many companies who make the equipment necessary for location by triangulation.

Some wireless networks still have a large portion of Analog service and Analog phones accessing their networks. Today we provide Analog, TDMA and GSM coverage.

We want Analog gone, but we cant get rid of it until 2008 (FCC mandate).

We want TDMA gone, but thats not going anywhere for a while either. We need the Analog and TDMA spectrum to expand our GSM spectrum, but the FCC has to look out for the people who dont want to upgrade their phone next week or next year. So we have to provide that serviceand coverage until the FCC says we can drop it.

Ever since cell phones were introduced, the wireless company could tell what cell tower you were calling from immediately. but in some areas 1 tower can cover a vast area and there are usually not 2 other towers near by or 1 other tower to triangulate off of. these rural areas do provide a problem. but in the denser cities we have been able to track the movement of a phone ( in kidnapping cases) and let the local authorities know where they are. I have worked with VICE, the FBI and local PD on kidnapping cases as they happen. Other cases as well to locate the bad guys

The reason cell companies are using enhanced triangulation or GPS location is because a large number of cell 911 calls the caller does not know where they are (yes its true).

you can call 911 to verify it works, but you need to call your local PSAP or police department first to let them know you are making a test call. THey reall dont like to receive test calls as they have to answer many actual emergency calls and you are just taking up their time. Years ago when I was heavin into call testing for my company I Would make about 100 calls to 911 in a give night. We had to make sure every NPANXX we owned could call 911 from any of our 5 traffic switches.

James

hankk

Canon EOS-5D

08/26/2005 09:09:48 AM · #17

Originally posted by srdanz:

Is there anyone here from telecom industry to give technical (not political) answer on why doesn't 911 work from VoIP, and what is required?

The existing phone system knows where a phone is because there is a dedicated pair of copper wires going to that phone (or PBX). If you take your phone with you on vacation, it may work, but the phone number will be different (it will be associated with the copper wires coming into that building.) E-911 (enhanced 911) uses the number associated with the line to find the location. IIRC, the number used is the billing number, not the caller-id number (they can be different). And you cannot block your number from E-911.

VoIP providers can associate a number with an address, and route the call to the correct E-911 center. So my VoIP call may go from my VoIP phone to my router (in Connecticut), to my ISP, to a Tier-1 ISP, to peer with my VoIP provider in San Jose. The VoIP provider then sends the call back to a "local" gateway in New Jersey which would call the E-911 center servicing my town, and would supply the phone number associated with my VoIP phone, and possibly my address. Note that the phone number is associated with the phone (or VoIP terminal adapter, etc).

Mobile phones also associate the number with the phone, not with the particular transmitter they connect to. But they can usually call the correct E-911 center becasue the system knows about where they are.

VoIP has a problem with 911. You can take your VoIP phone anywhere, and it may work. The phone number remains the same, so your friends can call you. But if you dial 911, the system is not guaranteed to know where you are, so it can't always connect you to the right E-911 center.
And VoIP is starting to appear on wireless handsets that will work at any wifi hotspot (and WiMax is even friendlier to VoIP than WiFi).

Also, you have to register the address of the phone for 911. Sometimes you want the bill sent to a different location than the phone will be (it doesn't help 911 to know that there's a fire at P.O. box 123).

So, to answer the original question, the user must confirm that the address used for 911 is correct, and that the user understands that if they take the phone to another address, the 911 info will be wrong and they may get connected to a 911 center thousands of miles away. And the VoIP provider must connect 911 calls, supply the address (and phone number) of the calling party to the 911 center (and connect to the correct 911 center.)

IIRC, at least one of the Baby Bells was putting up barriers to VoIP providers connection to 911, so you can add "competitive" to the technical vs political part of your question ;-)

Message edited by author 2005-08-26 09:25:09.

srdanz

Canon EOS-5D Mark IV

Canon EF-S 10-22mm f/3.5-4.5 USM

08/26/2005 10:26:53 AM · #18

Thank you all for replying to my question. While asking for technical explanation, I was trying to phish out the real reason for VoIP not being able to technically solve the 911 problem.

It is a technical challenge, but not an unsurmountable one. Some of the replies point out to inevitable: competitiveness between old Bells (whatever their name might be today) and new, internet-based services.

Sad, but true, and I'm willing to live with it, that the $$ goes in front of the security. Sometimes I wish that the government had more control over some public services in this country. There would be less money for some people, but ultimately the majority of the people would be better off... No need to reply - I don't want to hijack this thread and start talking about social-democracy vs. corporate-democracy. We can start another thread on this topic if someone wants to proceed... I don't.

cpanaioti

Canon EOS-40D

Canon EF 70-300mm f/4.5-5.6 DO IS USM

08/26/2005 10:31:16 AM · #19

I have a non-VOIP service which is offered through my cable company. You don't need broadband internet for it to work since it doesn't use the internet. It uses the cable network and does include proper 911. Something else to consider when looking for less costly phone service.

Strikeslip

Canon EOS-5D

Canon EF 100-400mm f/4.5-5.6L IS

08/26/2005 10:43:39 AM · #20

Originally posted by cpanaioti:

Same here. We give a lot of mony to our cable provider, we have: digital cable TV, high-speed I-net, VoIP telephone. They do quite a good job all-round. www.cogeco.ca