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08/22/2005 12:59:56 PM · #51 |
Originally posted by MadMordegon:
Some pretty F'd up statistics at that site:
-Wal-Mart fails to cover 60% of their workers with any health insurance
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What % of other jobs that require no skill, education or abilities offer health insurance?
Originally posted by MadMordegon:
-70% of Wal-Mart merchandise is from China
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What % of Home Depot's, Best Buy's, Circuit City's, B&H... goods are made in the USA?
Originally posted by MadMordegon:
-Wal-Mart costs federal taxpayers over $1.5 billion a year in welfare to their employees |
What % of other employees that have jobs that require no skill, education or abilities get federal welfare?
Originally posted by MadMordegon:
-Wal-Mart tops the list of companies with employees and their dependents on public assistance in at least 11 states |
Walmart is also the top or among the top employers in more then 11 states so that sounds right.
Originally posted by MadMordegon:
-Wal-Mart has agreed to pay $4.1 million in Clean Water Act violations and $50 million to settle allegations of underpaying employees |
What other companies have paid the same fines with even larger amounts?
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08/22/2005 01:03:36 PM · #52 |
Originally posted by Olyuzi:
The free market that WM operates in uses sweatshops as the basis for their huge profits. Those workers work under horrid conditions, with no health insurance, no time to go to the bathroom, for hour upon hour upon hour. |
I encourage you to go to Mexico and see the plants run by GM, Ford, Chrysler, and their teir one suppliers. Walmart is not the only one and is not the worst. While you are at it, go check out all the shoe manufacturers sweat shops as well.
Yeah, Walmart is not an angel, but they are no worse the companys you probably buy products from regularly.
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08/22/2005 01:10:45 PM · #53 |
I have no doubt that many American companies are doing the same as WM. Does that make what WM does right? Do I support the other companies. NO I DON'T!!! So basically, American capitalism falls flat on it's face when it comes to treating workers humanely. And since American companies have a big say in how other countries run their economies, then maybe their troubles and labor problems are related to the American companies that are in those countries.
Originally posted by louddog:
Originally posted by Olyuzi:
The free market that WM operates in uses sweatshops as the basis for their huge profits. Those workers work under horrid conditions, with no health insurance, no time to go to the bathroom, for hour upon hour upon hour. |
I encourage you to go to Mexico and see the plants run by GM, Ford, Chrysler, and their teir one suppliers. Walmart is not the only one and is not the worst. While you are at it, go check out all the shoe manufacturers sweat shops as well.
Yeah, Walmart is not an angel, but they are no worse the companys you probably buy products from regularly. |
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08/22/2005 01:37:21 PM · #54 |
Originally posted by Kaizen:
You have failed to address the choice of the employee issue I have presented. People choose to work for lower wages. |
Nobody chooses to work for low wages - they are forced to accede to them. Businesses, on the other hand, CAN choose to pay their workers an immorally low, or a morally acceptable wage.
WalMart opts to make obscene profits and pay their employees wages/benefits so low that they are actually a major drain on state welfare systems!
CostCo opts to make robust profits while paying their employees wages/benefits that keep them in the middle class, which improves the economy for everybody - not just Sam Walton's family.
Originally posted by Kaizen:
Of course they are on an "equal playing field." Again, no one is forced to work for Wal-Mart. They choose to do so. Address the choice issue. You do not because you cannot.... |
I thought I just did?
Anyway, when you have to resort to an argument whereby you justify WalMart's practices by demonstrating that they are not AS BAD as a Nazi concentration camp, I think you lost that particular round. :D
Remember, WalMart IS different than other business models of rapacious corporatism, because that company is single-handedly devasting the local business owners of Main Street America, and putting their employees out of work. THEN, Walmart hires them at crap wages with no benefits because poor people today have few options anymore. If you are not poor and unemployed these days it is hard to understand it.
Originally posted by Kaizen:
Further, to say that we have poverty in America is inaccurate. We have poor people in America. .... Go to Central America. There you can witness poverty... |
Again, if you have to resort to comparing the poverty of a WalMart worker with the poverty of someone perhaps eating hand-to-mouth to rationalize the rotten behavior of WalMart, then I hereby nominate you for the 2005 Ebenezer Scrooge Family Values Award. :D
Originally posted by Kaizen:
Finally, you presume that an employee and a customer of Wal-Mart "settles" for the paid position and the products purchased. That is not, and should not be, a concern of Wal-Mart's. That is a choice of an individual. |
Again, I would argue that that last statement is antiAmerican in its nature. At least, it would have been considered so by everyone NOT a robber baron who lived in the U.S. until about thirty years ago.
That was when the republican think tanks started spewing out their poisonous ubercapitalistic propaganda that your arguments mirror. Awaken from your dream! :D :D You have been misled by charlatans who are laughing all the way to their Swiss Bank accounts.
Originally posted by Kaizen:
Originally posted by gingerbaker:
See, to me that is really twisted. Corporations have an obligation to do the public good, not just be heartless profit machines. I seem to be repeating myself. |
Address the choice issue. Wal-Mart cannot operate without employees. Why do people choose to work there? |
For the working conditions, I'll bet. All the cool music. And the cheery orientation lectures on how to apply for state assistance programs - not a joke!
Because our economy sucks wind so bad there is no better alternative? Because the only job growth in the U.S. is in the service sector? Because terrible economic policies, which favor big business instead of the common man, have been in place so long, most people have no upward mobility anymore? (true)
Why does WalMart Choose to screw workers instead of displaying Family Values?
Originally posted by Kaizen:
Do you love people that have been laid off three times in the past eight years? People who paid their way through college and graduate school - obtained a new skill set - and are now gainfully employed? |
No - I think that sucks. And I think it might be an indication of a governmental economic/educational policy geared more toward protecting corporate markets than workers futures.
Originally posted by Kaizen:
That is what I had to do. I have experienced everything you and I have talked about. However, I did not complain. I chose to make certain that I could position myself to minimize the possibility that I would not be out of work for six month stretches like I had been in the past. |
I hope you rermain gainfully and happily employed. For your family's sake - and so you can afford the internet so you and I can go at it! :D :D
Originally posted by Kaizen:
Yes, I invest in the stock market. So what? I am also a registered Independent. So what? |
Me too. Both.
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08/22/2005 01:59:31 PM · #55 |
What do you think is a fair wage for a Walmart employee? Should they make the same as as auto mechanic? An administrative assistant? Should someone be able to make a comfortable living working at Walmart in a low level positon?
Also, why should Walmart not make a profit? Every store in the county makes a profit or goes out of business. Is Walmart's profit margin larger then everyone elses? Walmart prices their groceries considerably cheaper then their competition. Same brands, same stuff, same sizes, exact same things consistently 20-30% cheaper. Maybe they pay their employees less then the competiton, but they do pass that savings on to their customers. Thanks to Walmart I have an extra $50-100 in my pocket every month.
I know costco started at $10/hour a year ago with regular increases, but more is expected of them then of the employees at Walmart (from what I see as a consumer). I know UPS pays pretty good with benefits, but most people that get hired there quit because the work is too hard (I worked there 5 years and seen this first hand). From what I've seen, the employees at Taco Bell work harder then the employees at Walmart and are probably on the same skill levels. So I'd estimate that the job at Walmart should pay about the same as Taco Bell. Does that sound right?
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08/22/2005 02:02:00 PM · #56 |
Brother Lambert, you brought up the poverty language, not me. I sought to demonstrate your extreme comparison of poverty and "big businesses" lust for it.
Costco has demonstrated a better way. And, as a result, it has been a better investment for its shareholders than Wal-Mart. However, do not fool yourself that Costco does so because of some higher calling. Its actions are still driven by profit.
Your remark about my commment being un-American is an inaccurate reflection of American history if you think that that idea did not exist prior to 1975. 1937 was more a turning point in the country than '75.
As for my remark concerning Viktor Frankl. It would be obscene of me to say that an employee working for Wal-Mart is in a similar situation as one held in a Nazi concentration camp. The point was to illustrate that, even in the most extreme circumstances, when people think that they do not have a choice, people still have the freedom and ability to choose in how they respond to their circumstances.
Originally posted by gingerbaker:
Why does WalMart Choose to screw workers instead of displaying Family Values? |
Because they can. Its workers let them, I guess.
I am not, and have not been, justifying the behavior of Wal-Mart. My point is that an individual should demonstrate some personal responsibility (a libertarian point of view, although I am not a libertarian) and not rely solely on the government or a corporation for assistance. It is the choice of the individual and not the choice of Wal-Mart that is my concern. Until one is determined to stand-up for himself, then he is, indeed, at the mercy of others.
Originally posted by gingerbaker:
Because our economy sucks wind so bad there is no better alternative? Because the only job growth in the U.S. is in the service sector? Because terrible economic policies, which favor big business instead of the common man, have been in place so long, most people have no upward mobility anymore? (true) |
I think, as I have stated earlier, it relates more to a fundamental shift in our economy to a knowledge-worker information age employee and less reliance on manual labor that can be achieved elsewhere, which is possibly more difficult to accept and far more easier to blame "the republican think tanks."
I am still waiting for my one hundred examples.
JV
Did you "Google" "Kaizen" yet?
Message edited by author 2005-08-22 15:56:47. |
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08/22/2005 02:11:42 PM · #57 |
Kaizen = Japanese philosophy of business management/growth, stressing discipline & responsibility, continuous incremental improvement (as opposed to sudden change), integrated into an individual's way of life. Requires focused responsibility of every individual in the business/community; i.e. agreed-upon commonality of outlooks and goals. Seen by some as requiring subsuming the individual to the machine, seen by others as transcending the machine by becoming an integrated and necessary part of it.
*************
The Kaizen method of continuous incremental improvements is an originally Japanese management concept for incremental (gradual, continuous) change (improvement). K. is actually a way of life philosophy, assuming that every aspect of our life deserves to be constantly improved. The Kaizen philosophy lies behind many Japanese management concepts such as Total Quality Control, Quality Control circles, small group activities, labor relations. Key elements of Kaizen are quality, effort, involvement of all employees, willingness to change, and communication.
Japanese companies distinguish between innovation (radical) and Kaizen (continuous). K. means literally: change (kai) to become good (zen).
The foundation of the Kaizen method consists of 5 founding elements:
1. teamwork,
2. personal discipline,
3. improved morale,
4. quality circles, and
5. suggestions for improvement.
Out of this foundation three key factors in K. arise:
- elimination of waste (muda) and inefficiency
- the Kaizen five-S framework for good housekeeping
1. Seiri - tidiness
2. Seiton - orderliness
3. Seiso - cleanliness
4. Seiketsu - standardized clean-up
5. Shitsuke - discipline
- standardization.
from //www.valuebasedmanagement.net/methods_kaizen.html
*************
Robt.
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08/22/2005 02:14:29 PM · #58 |
Sorry, but I really can't concern myself with whether or not Wal-Mart employees get decent wages and benefits. I'm too busy concerning myself with helping teachers get better wages and benefits. It says something about the state of the world when an educator with a Master's degree qualifies to have her children covered by a state insurance plan because she can't afford the one offered to her family by her school district.
People know when they apply at Wal-Mart that they aren't going to be setting the world on fire in the pay/benefits department. People work there because they need a job NOW that helps put food on their tables NOW.
I shop at Wal-Mart, and will continue to shop there, as long as there are enough people working there to keep the store open. I can't afford the mom-and-pop stores that are left in my area.
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08/22/2005 02:14:51 PM · #59 |
I think that workers at WM are taking responsibility in their own hands. Many have two and three jobs to make ends meet and raise a family. I just wish the CEOs and big business owners would take some responsibility for their own actions. They make huge salaries, in the millions, don't give a damn about the environmental degradation their business's wreck havoc on, pay huge sums of money to politicians to get laws passed their way, and rely on cheap and abused labor overseas for many, if not all of their products. Why aren't they held accountable for their poor choices, just like you want the common person to do who is trying to make ends meet? There is much corruption in American capitalism.
Originally posted by Kaizen:
I am not, and have not been, justifying the behavior of Wal-Mart. My point is that an individual should demonstrate some personal responsibility (a libertarian point of view, although I am not a libertarian) and not rely solely on the government or a corporation for assistance. It is the choice of the individual and not the choice of Wal-Mart that is my concern. Until one is determined to stand-up for himself, then he is, indeed, at the mercy of others.
I am still waiting for my one hundred examples.
JV
Did you "Google" "Kaizen" yet? |
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08/22/2005 02:15:11 PM · #60 |
Originally posted by Olyuzi:
I have no doubt that many American companies are doing the same as WM. Does that make what WM does right? Do I support the other companies. NO I DON'T!!! So basically, American capitalism falls flat on it's face when it comes to treating workers humanely. And since American companies have a big say in how other countries run their economies, then maybe their troubles and labor problems are related to the American companies that are in those countries. |
It does make it right because if they don't outsource to the cheapest bidder (which is usually out of country) and hire the cheapest labor they will go out of business. If Walmart doesn't do it, Target, K-Mart, or someone else will. If Walmart folded today they would be replaced by the next in line (probably Target, who seems to be following Walmart's business plan).
I'd love to hear some solutions to the perceived problems. Walmart is not the problem. They are just playing the game and are very good at it.
And PS, what brand shoes do you wear? What type of car do you drive? Where do you shop for food? Do you eat at fast food resturants? Where did you buy your camera? Do you eat Krispy Cream or got to Starbucks? I bet you have supported a company or two that is worse then Walmart?
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08/22/2005 02:29:11 PM · #61 |
I'm on my way out the door to go to my abusive job, for another discussion.
I will answer what you have to say later, but as far as the way I live my life, well, I have made many changes over the years, including not owning a car ( I use mass transit or bicycle), I eat locally grown organic food, no fast food, no starbucks, and I support local business when that choice is available to me. What changes have you made in your lifestyle, Louddog, to better this world?
Originally posted by louddog:
Originally posted by Olyuzi:
I have no doubt that many American companies are doing the same as WM. Does that make what WM does right? Do I support the other companies. NO I DON'T!!! So basically, American capitalism falls flat on it's face when it comes to treating workers humanely. And since American companies have a big say in how other countries run their economies, then maybe their troubles and labor problems are related to the American companies that are in those countries. |
It does make it right because if they don't outsource to the cheapest bidder (which is usually out of country) and hire the cheapest labor they will go out of business. If Walmart doesn't do it, Target, K-Mart, or someone else will. If Walmart folded today they would be replaced by the next in line (probably Target, who seems to be following Walmart's business plan).
I'd love to hear some solutions to the perceived problems. Walmart is not the problem. They are just playing the game and are very good at it.
And PS, what brand shoes do you wear? What type of car do you drive? Where do you shop for food? Do you eat at fast food resturants? Where did you buy your camera? Do you eat Krispy Cream or got to Starbucks? I bet you have supported a company or two that is worse then Walmart? |
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08/22/2005 02:55:54 PM · #62 |
I don't need to make any changes in my lifestyle because I don't feel I'm making the world a bad place. I never said you were making the world a bad place. I simply said that you are probably supporting companies that are just as guilty of playing the game as Walmart is. If you feel you need to make those changes to make the world a better place, that's great for you.
...but do you know who made your computer and camera?
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08/22/2005 02:57:21 PM · #63 |
Originally posted by Olyuzi:
I have made many changes over the years, including not owning a car ( I use mass transit or bicycle), I eat locally grown organic food, no fast food, no starbucks, and I support local business when that choice is available to me. |
This has been my point. A demonstration of an individual's choices. This is one way you can change the "system" if you think that it needs to be changed. One small change, when aggregated, can become a movement. (Of course, some might call it a bowel-movement. Not me.)
My guess is that you do not work for a Wal-Mart-like company either. You would probably "sacrifice" other comforts (or necessities) in order to not have to work there. A choice.
Let me state that, if you work for Wal-Mart, and you love it, good (actually, great) for you. I do not wish to espouse my beliefs on or attempt to judge anyone. That is not me. Rather, I am only interested in this conversation pertaining to the choices that we make.
To all, thank you for the discussion and for the conversation that was not possible only a few years ago.
JV |
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08/22/2005 05:06:42 PM · #64 |
This essay, By Thomas Hartmann, is so completely relevant to this discussion it is scary.
I find the mans' essays to be truly enlightening
"Democracy - Not "The Free Market" - Will Save America's Middle Class "
by Thom Hartmann
//www.commondreams.org/views04/0312-08.htm |
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08/22/2005 05:34:19 PM · #65 |
Originally posted by gingerbaker:
This essay, By Thomas Hartmann, is so completely relevant to this discussion it is scary.
I find the mans' essays to be truly enlightening
"Democracy - Not "The Free Market" - Will Save America's Middle Class "
by Thom Hartmann
//www.commondreams.org/views04/0312-08.htm |
Funny, I am on Common Dreams mailing list.
I told you we were on the same side of this debate.
By the way, where are my one hundred examples?
JV |
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08/22/2005 05:42:47 PM · #66 |
Originally posted by Kaizen:
By the way, where are my one hundred examples?
JV |
I've outsourced the collation job to a fellow in Kuala Lumpur. He's modified an Atari Pong controller to steal wi-fi at the local Starbucks. Works, but it is 1 bit/minute. Course it doesn't matter because I am only paying him an e-coupon for a bottle of satay sauce.
:D
Message edited by author 2005-08-22 17:46:00. |
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08/22/2005 05:52:07 PM · #67 |
.
Message edited by author 2005-10-30 16:01:24. |
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08/22/2005 06:31:23 PM · #68 |
Originally posted by gingerbaker:
This essay, By Thomas Hartmann, is so completely relevant to this discussion it is scary.
I find the mans' essays to be truly enlightening
"Democracy - Not "The Free Market" - Will Save America's Middle Class "
by Thom Hartmann
//www.commondreams.org/views04/0312-08.htm |
I just read that and its quite good. Take a few minutes, well worth it.. |
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08/22/2005 09:21:12 PM · #69 |
By gingerbaker
<<< And it does NOT mean that WalMart's behavior is the proper business behavior, or the way it has been done for years. It has NOT been done this way for years.
The way they treat the American worker is NOT the American way. At least, it was not the American way our parents knew, or their parents knew, or their parents... all the way back to 1776. >>>
You, of all people, have never read "The Jungle" by Upton Sinclair? |
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08/22/2005 09:29:36 PM · #70 |
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Message edited by author 2005-10-30 16:01:11. |
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08/22/2005 09:47:34 PM · #71 |
something that hasn't been brought up is how WM also tries to low ball suppliers as well. my father owns a wholesale bakery in NC, and WM called and wanted us to supply their stores with creme filled long johns. without hesitation my father said no. he has know many many people with businesses that geared up with all the needed equipment to supply WM, and then they turned around and dropped them a year or so later. then the company is stuck with a ton of equipment and no account large engough to cover the cost. if you look really closely, you'll notice that many items like towels or plastic cups change manufactures pretty frequently. things that can be easily duplicated and that aren't brand dependent change constantly.
thing is, if they keep this up on both ends, someone will come along and take the lead away. it could be cotsco for all we know. companies don't last forever. there are plenty of companies that were mainstays in the early 20th centry that are long gone now.
Message edited by author 2005-08-22 21:48:31. |
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08/22/2005 10:22:48 PM · #72 |
Originally posted by rex:
But they are cheap. Without Wal-Mart I would have to drive over 20 miles to the nearest grocery store. |
Funny catch 22... Because of the Wal-Mart you have to drive 20 MI to the nearest grocery store.
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08/23/2005 08:25:39 AM · #73 |
Originally posted by laurielblack:
Sorry, but I really can't concern myself with whether or not Wal-Mart employees get decent wages and benefits. I'm too busy concerning myself with helping teachers get better wages and benefits.
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Your plight seems to me to be another example of a society with its priorities all wrong. :(
I truly feel much of the injustice and misery in this world is that because a certain few have so much, so many have less than they should.
There is NOT an infinite supply of money in the world. When 5% of Americans hold 95% of its wealth, as we have now, teachers - as an example - don't get paid enough. :(
I guess I see your story and the WalMart story as being part of the same story, Laurelblack. |
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08/23/2005 09:38:48 AM · #74 |
What is the solution? Punish people for making too much money (how much is too much?)? Modern day Robinhood? Communism? Why not just tell people there is no reason to try harder because you all are going to get the same anyway.
Will closing down all the Walmarts solve anything?
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08/23/2005 09:45:55 AM · #75 |
Originally posted by louddog:
What is the solution? Punish people for making too much money (how much is too much?)? Modern day Robinhood? Communism? Why not just tell people there is no reason to try harder because you all are going to get the same anyway.
Will closing down all the Walmarts solve anything? |
The article I provided mentions:
" anti-trust legislation, and worker protections ranging from enforcing the rights of organized labor to restricting American companies' access to cheap foreign labor through visas and tariffs. ".
Check out his other works for specifics. :) |
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