US soldiers fight to protect USA/Bush

Canon EF-S 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6 USM

08/21/2005 07:22:57 PM · #76

Originally posted by CalliopeKel:

Oh I forgot. Men like to fight. LOL

UH-OH, does that mean I need to get a sex change?;)

rox_rox

Canon EF-S 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6 USM

08/21/2005 07:27:23 PM · #77

Originally posted by CalliopeKel:

greatandsmall-

Not ashamed of my son or his beliefs (I taught him from the cradle)
Just ashamed of his word choices, profanity and personal insults toward beegee....Thats what I meant.

I didn't mean that you were ashamed of his beliefs. I meant that, relatively speaking, he could be doing much worse things. He does need to work on those expletives, though. He's going to be out there representing us.

Canon 12x IS USM (S3 IS built-in Lens) -- 36-432mm (35mm EQ)

08/21/2005 07:31:31 PM · #78

I can see that no matter what you say here, it invites a challenge or clarification.

My comment that 'Oh I forgot men like to fight' was a quote from my son from an earlier post that I thought was funny. I'm not so naive as to think that all men or women want to fight either with either weapons or words.

Rather than judge or hate bush or his advisors & cabinet for choices they are making even now, I prefer to let God sort out any malicious intent or behavior of his and judge him accordingly. And rest assured nothing is private or kept secret from his eyes.

edit: greatandsmall- yes, I hope the Marines does it's thing with him.
(if you know what I mean)

Message edited by author 2005-08-21 19:33:29.

GeneralE

Canon PowerShot S3 IS

08/21/2005 07:49:01 PM · #79

Originally posted by CalliopeKel:

Rather than judge or hate bush or his advisors & cabinet for choices they are making even now, I prefer to let God sort out any malicious intent or behavior of his and judge him accordingly. And rest assured nothing is private or kept secret from his eyes.

And see, faith is not a basis for conducting foreign policy. Like it or not, we live in a secular world based (as always) on the control of natural resources and the means of production and distribution -- as our current leaders seem to realize and you do not.

Do you really think Jesus would approve of a system where a corporation's primary responsibility is not to its customers, workers, or the public at large, but to investor/shareholders, who contribute nothing to the overall product except capital. Not sweat, not creative ideas, just money.

Just about everything about corporate capitalism runs directly contrary to the most basic of Christian precepts, yet these hypocrites ave found support for their pernicious policies through exploitation of hot-button -- but ultimately irrelevant -- issues like stem cell research.

Their policies have one thing in common with their friends in the Middle East -- if followed through to their logical conclusion, the economic policies currently in place will lead to a system more closely resembling feudalism than the enlightened democracy envisioned by the founding fathers.

They are systematically gutting the Constitution, rigging the courts, and are definitely taking no chances on the possiblility that Divine Will may be exercised in a manner not in accordance with their personal preferences.

Message edited by author 2005-08-21 19:50:21.

08/21/2005 08:08:08 PM · #80

Well the last thing I have to say in this thread is...

None of it really matters. Because rants and opinions won't change the course of things. The destiny of this planet is already chartered out. It has been since the beginning. Im sure that scares some people.

Let me put it this way. Whatever is going to happen, is going to happen. There are no surprises or curveballs thrown at God.

Destiny Awaits. Regardless of secularlism.

rox_rox

Canon EF-S 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6 USM

08/21/2005 08:34:34 PM · #81

Originally posted by CalliopeKel:

Destiny Awaits. Regardless of secularlism.

Maybe so, but I'm going to keep praying...just in case.

BeeGee

Canon EF 28-70mm f/2.8L USM

08/21/2005 08:35:41 PM · #82

Well, if you just sit back and "relax", if your nightmares as a thinking American don't keep you from relaxing without either drugs or alcohol, THEN and only THEN none of this really matters.

But didn't Martin Luther King just have "a dream" and still change a lot, exactly BECAUSE he didn't sit back?

FATE is a lame concept and so is destiny. NOTHING is chartered out.

Tax cuts and exploding oil/gas prices in the US have nothing to do with destiny and everything with screwed up politics that replace one source of money to finance a war over oil by another. Bush makes people believe that his tax cuts (primarily interesting for the rich, mind you) are good for everyone and then goes out and helps the Saudis, his family friends, to push the oil price. And gas, believe it or not, in a country lacking a working public transport system, is what the average American Joe HAS TO BUY, to survive. A little less for taxes, a lot more money for your gas guzzling AMERICAN car's tank - or was that a military tank "cruising" the streets of Iraq? Either way, your son could be behind the wheel a few months from now, CalliopeKel.

THINK!

Opinions and rants don't change the course of things, neither do dreams or beliefs.

ACTION is what CAN change the course of things.

GeneralE, I'd like to name you my own personal American hero of this thread. I think Frank Rich is a great guy and so are you.

CalliopeKel: don't you want to spare your son's life and mental health? Is he going to go to heaven if he gets killed in Iraq, just like those poor lost souls who supposedly crashed passenger planes into a practically empty WTC in NYC on a beautiful September morning just four years ago?

Is he going to be the cripple from Oliver Stone's "Born on the fourth of July" or just the guy from Springsteen's "Born in the USA" or will he simply go crazy like Nicholas Cage's character in the movie "Birdy"?

Yes, that's all pop culture, all recent stuff. Don't you think you should give that recent stuff, written by smart people of our times, at least the credence you give the bible, a dusty old book written roughly 2000 years ago, in "pre-historic" times, according to American history books. Before your glorious country was even invaded, not to mention invented by the white man...

2000 years ago, America was peaceful. If it wasn't, you wouldn't know. Because your history books don't ask any questions, they just have ALL the answers and hold nothing but the absolute truth. Just like your president. Just like you, CalliopeKel, when you claim that "Destiny" awaits...

Remember Einstein? He thought of the "relativity theory", while working in my hometown, as a patent lawyer, by the way, and based it on the laws of physics (yes, as a lawyer!). I think what he really wanted to say, and THAT is what we should always keep in mind, is that ALL things are relative, even GOD and destiny.

NOTHING is chartered out.

Amen and thanks for a great thread, everyone.

Bruce

muckpond

Nikon D200

Sigma 15mm f/2.8 EX Diagonal Fisheye for Nikon

08/21/2005 08:38:09 PM · #83

Originally posted by CalliopeKel:

None of it really matters. Because rants and opinions won't change the course of things. The destiny of this planet is already chartered out. It has been since the beginning. Im sure that scares some people.

Let me put it this way. Whatever is going to happen, is going to happen. There are no surprises or curveballs thrown at God.

Destiny Awaits. Regardless of secularlism.

this kind of post is the scariest thing i've read in this thread. our opinions don't matter? they won't change anything? bush is our destiny?

eep!

Originally posted by calliopekel:

No matter what this country does it is hated.

i'm pretty sure that no one, save the taliban and bin laden, hated us for invading afghanistan. THAT was a justified military action that had a specific purpose and tangible ties to the attack on the U.S. if we had been satisfied to restore democracy to that country and oust the people who had a legitimate shot at hurting us (as was proven on 9/11, the USS Cole, the first Trade Center attacks, etc.) i think world opinion of the united states would be a lot less hated.

let's not forget that 6 months prior to 9/11 bush couldn't even name the leader of pakistan in a press conference. don't tell me that he's an expert on foreign policy because he's just not.

this war is a ridiculous waste of time. yes, saddam is a bad man. but there are plenty of bad men out there that we're doing nothing about. why?

and PLEASE don't talk about the "liberal" press distorting facts and spinning things in a bad light. where is the outrage that we were lied to? why aren't people up in arms about the ridiculous "spins" that come forth from this administration? because they're not "talking points," which is what our pathetic excuse for journalism in this country relies upon to report the "news." the ONLY bias the media has is whatever is being fed to them that day. other than screaming "talking heads" there's no analysis at all of the information that is dispersed.

anyone who claims bias from the "liberal" media obviously is not paying attention, just as much as they are not paying attention to what an incredible amount of damage this idiot is doing to our country for years to come.

RonB

Canon EOS-300D Rebel

08/21/2005 09:04:06 PM · #84

Originally posted by GeneralE:

Originally posted by CalliopeKel:
Rather than judge or hate bush or his advisors & cabinet for choices they are making even now, I prefer to let God sort out any malicious intent or behavior of his and judge him accordingly. And rest assured nothing is private or kept secret from his eyes.

And see, faith is not a basis for conducting foreign policy. Like it or not, we live in a secular world based (as always) on the control of natural resources and the means of production and distribution -- as our current leaders seem to realize and you do not.

Do you really think Jesus would approve of a system where a corporation's primary responsibility is not to its customers, workers, or the public at large, but to investor/shareholders, who contribute nothing to the overall product except capital. Not sweat, not creative ideas, just money.

You didn't ask me, but I feel the need to jump in at this point to say YES, he would - and did. Read the parable of the talents in Matthew 25, Verses 14 thru 30:

For the kingdom of heaven is as a man travelling into a far country, who called his own servants, and delivered unto them his goods. And unto one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one; to every man according to his several ability; and straightway took his journey. Then he that had received the five talents went and traded with the same, and made them other five talents. And likewise he that had received two, he also gained other two. But he that had received one went and digged in the earth, and hid his lord's money. After a long time the lord of those servants cometh, and reckoneth with them. And so he that had received five talents came and brought other five talents, saying, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me five talents: behold, I have gained beside them five talents more. His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord. He also that had received two talents came and said, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me two talents: behold, I have gained two other talents beside them. His lord said unto him, Well done, good and faithful servant; thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord. Then he which had received the one talent came and said, Lord, I knew thee that thou art an hard man, reaping where thou hast not sown, and gathering where thou hast not strowed: And I was afraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, there thou hast that is thine. His lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strowed: Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury. Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents. For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath. And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Originally posted by GeneralE:

Just about everything about corporate capitalism runs directly contrary to the most basic of Christian precepts. . .

Based on the biblical passage I just quoted, it would appear that this statement is not true.

Originally posted by GeneralE:

...yet these hypocrites ave found support for their pernicious policies through exploitation of hot-button -- but ultimately irrelevant -- issues like stem cell research.

Their policies have one thing in common with their friends in the Middle East -- if followed through to their logical conclusion, the economic policies currently in place will lead to a system more closely resembling feudalism than the enlightened democracy envisioned by the founding fathers.

Hate to burst your bubble, Paul, but the founding fathers never envisioned a democracy. In fact they feared it. So much so that they took great care to insure that they established the U.S. as a Constitutional REPUBLIC, and NOT a democracy. If you want to see the results of democracy, look no further than the 17th amendment, which was passed in direct violation of the desires of the founding fathers. The 17th amemdment replaced having Senators APPOINTED by the individual STATE governments ( thus being expected to represent STATE interests at the federal level ) to having Senators ELECTED by the popular vote of the PEOPLE of each state ( thus being expected to represent the interests of the PEOPLE of each state ). So now, Senators are elected in a popularity contest based on who can buy the most votes by making promises that appeal to the largest number of constituents. That's democracy - the problem being that a democracy can only work effectively until the majority find that by virtue of the vote, or the threat to withhold such, they can influence the passage of laws that give them money from the corporate treasury ( read medicaid, medicare, social-security, national health care, welfare, food stamps, earned-income-tax-credit, alternative-minimum-tax, cost-of-living increases, etc. ). Naturally, the corporate treasury must be funded - by the ( minority ) wealthy individuals, who can be force to turn over their monies under threat of force, confiscation, or even imprisonment.

Originally posted by GeneralE:

They are systematically gutting the Constitution, rigging the courts, and are definitely taking no chances on the possiblility that Divine Will may be exercised in a manner not in accordance with their personal preferences.

Your opinions, as always, are your's to share. My opinion is that this last statement applies to the liberals.

TheAntiThinker

Fujifilm FinePix A205

08/21/2005 09:12:18 PM · #85

BeeGee, again with your random capitalizations, hah. You are so unaccepting. "But didn't Martin Luther King just have "a dream" and still change a lot, exactly BECAUSE he didn't sit back?", if the concept of fate was put into play here, you'd realize that 'the change' was meant to happen, his dream was meant to happen. If you beleive in fate, you'd beleive that he 'couldnt' have just sat back, because that was not his fate. Fate is life on a string that guides oneself. If you beleive in faith, then you dont have to worry about being 'stuck' on a string, your choices still interact with the world, you just have to accept that it was meant to happen.

But fate isn't for everybody. Obviously not you. BeeGee, the one thing I'll give you, is that you seem like an incredibly intelligent person, I mean it shows in your writing for the most part, but it seems you are addicted to conflict. Maybe not full out war and blood shed like this topic's basis, but you are so hell-bent on having one loud voice.

"I can scream louder than you" is not going to get you farther than "Here are the facts". You are screaming loud, and you got my attention. I mean there is a clear difference between ranting, and bashing an oppinion. You aren't just denying the possibility, you are going out of your way to say Fetors mom is wrong.

Also, you keep bashing America. You could argue you aren't, but the word 'average joe' is a clear attack at the American Life style. Lay off our country. And stop using references to music and movies, in your first big rant against Fetor, you kept using all this anti-hollywood nonsense on him. I don't know how it got involved into this topic.

Try saying 'I disagree' or 'I agree', istead of 'Rabble Rabble Rabble Fetors Mom wrong rabble rabble rabble'. Also, the term 'thinking American' is pretty one sided. You make it sound like we are Terry Schiavo, the paralyzed lady who was taken off the feeding tube a few months back, being forced to do what we want. Its taking alot of me not to just explode into a bloody rage and start beating you with a club.

Yet this is the internet. People who get frustated and flustered over it have to remember that all you are is just some loudmouth on the other end of a cable somewhere else in this large world.

PERSONAL QUESTION: BeeGee, Why do you feel you have to be so passionate about this issue? Do you have to worry about America? Its not like we plan on invading Switzerland anytime soon, and I highly doubt something we do at this point could directly influence you or yourself? Do you have family in the Iraq War? Family in America? I am just curious. You seem to act like you need to know everything about everything. Or atleast its how you come off with your big four page rants with random capital words.

Edit: Well said, RonR.

Message edited by author 2005-08-21 21:17:51.

08/21/2005 09:22:25 PM · #86

**

Message edited by author 2005-08-21 21:25:38.

08/21/2005 09:25:09 PM · #87

Great show on National Geographic tonight.

Watch it.

Message edited by author 2005-08-21 21:28:30.

BeeGee

Canon EF 28-70mm f/2.8L USM

08/21/2005 09:32:09 PM · #88

Anti Thinker - stop babbling and start thinking.

Thanks for calling me intelligent, I'll take that as a compliment. You seem like a pretty smart kid yourself, Shawn - compliments right back at you.

My country is full of "average joes", too, that's got nothing to do with American or not.

I didn't bash America in general, not once. Go back and read.

I don't claim to have "the facts", hold the truth and be the best, smartest, know all, big headed asshole. That wouldn't be intelligent me.

Instead, I'm trying to be subtle yet convincing by stating my opinions, and that's all they are and ever were.

If I stated facts, you'd call them liberal propaganda, for all I know. Happened just a few posts below to one of your intelligent fellow citizens.

I'm not "unaccepting", bashing opinions, I'm just trying to point out that OTHER opinions are just as valid as your own IF you have an OPEN MIND.

Opinions ideally are concepts you formed with your own mind, not rhetoric you "copy and pasted" from Bush's speeches.

I'm not addicted to conflict, I'm just trying to talk sense into people who, despite their Christian beliefs, seem to want to let their kids go to war and kill the innocent and get killed for ABSOLUTELY NOTHING.

Ha, you seem to have a problem with pop culture, huh? Too bad for you, I'll quote Sting here, stuff written in 1985 or so, during the Cold War:

In Europe and America, there's a growing feeling of hysteria
Conditioned to respond to all the threats
In the rhetorical speeches of the Soviets
Mr. Krushchev said we will bury you
I don't subscribe to this point of view
It would be such an ignorant thing to do
If the Russians love their children too

How can I save my little boy from Oppenheimer's deadly toy
There is no monopoly in common sense
On either side of the political fence
We share the same biology
Regardless of ideology
Believe me when I say to you
I hope the Russians love their children too

There is no historical precedent
To put the words in the mouth of the President

There's no such thing as a winnable war
It's a lie we don't believe anymore

Mr. Reagan says we will protect you
I don't subscribe to this point of view
Believe me when I say to you
I hope the Russians love their children too

We share the same biology
Regardless of ideology
What might save us, me, and you
Is that the Russians love their children too

Now, if even the communist Russians loved their children enough to not nuke the US back in the 80s, why do you "give" your son to a lying president for his war about oil???

By the way, I'd love to hear/read some of those lyrics your favorite bands put out there. I've never even heard of them, ignorant 31-year old European that I am... And sorry about the capitals, couldn't help it ;-)

Signing off for now,
Bruno

08/21/2005 09:34:53 PM · #89

If you have cable be you will be able to watch. Its available to anyone with cable !

Message edited by author 2005-08-21 21:35:50.

BeeGee

Canon EF 28-70mm f/2.8L USM

08/21/2005 09:41:44 PM · #90

CalliopeKel: Why don't you send your kid over here, sort of as a stop-over on his way to the Middle East. Check out this thread, he seemes interested...

//www.dpchallenge.com/forum.php?action=read&FORUM_THREAD_ID=260597

Canon EF 28-135mm f/3.5-5.6 IS USM

08/21/2005 09:47:09 PM · #91

Originally posted by BeeGee:

I'm not addicted to conflict, I'm just trying to talk sense into people who, despite their Christian beliefs, seem to want to let their kids go to war and kill the innocent and get killed for ABSOLUTELY NOTHING.

Geez, I guess you think I resemble that concept?

Liberty and Freedom (for afganistanians, and Iraqis) is not Absolutely Nothing. It's really not your job to 'save us' or enlighten us, although the sentiment is galliant.

Lest we forget. Women were not allowed to work, teach or walk around with their faces exposed. They were methodically beaten 'on a talibans whim and at their discretion'. Unmarked mass graves of the Shiites, torchure, rape and generalized horrors are coming to an end.

For Nothing? Maybe you should seek assignment there and talk to the locals about how they feel about the fall of Saddam and the Taliban.

Americans Care. We ended Taliban rule. Our sons died. Not in Vain. If you feel it was vain, that is your opinion. Your entitled to it. But don't generalize your comments that its all a waste of time and lives.

SJCarter

Canon EOS-7D

08/21/2005 09:47:41 PM · #92

EDIT

... This certainly is an interesting thread ...

There are a number of people here I truly admire and respect. And there are a number of people here that I would like to have thoroughly explain their point of view using rational, logical, and verifiable facts. There will always be differing views on every topic. I just enjoy seeing thoughtful, enlightened, and educated debates. And I have seen a number of them here. Thank you to all of those mentioned above. :-)

Message edited by author 2005-08-21 21:52:03.

Panasonic Lumix G 14mm F2.5 ASPH

08/21/2005 09:48:42 PM · #93

BeeGee-

Cory belongs to the U.S. Military now. I can't send him anywhere.

Sorry!

TheAntiThinker

Fujifilm FinePix A205

08/21/2005 09:56:25 PM · #94

Is it wrong for me to listen to music based upon the sound, or should I go out and study every anti-war song there is so I have some chance against you, the supercomputer chock full of lyrics. The Decemberists is a Oregon based indy band that sounds like they are straight from London. The Thermals are an indy band who sound like their microphone is slightly broken. They havent written any songs, as far as I know, about the war/s. Its not everybodys concern.. yet.. haha.

I am done for the night, first day back at highschool tommorow. And maybe Ill upload some pictures. I'm no photographer, but I do enjoy capturing the moment. Bye DPchallenge.

PS: Cory's mom, psss, Im the kid Fetor was supposed to meet this summer outside the internet.

PS: DPChallenge, me and Fetor are good friends on the internet.

Edit: In responce to your average joe retort, I should have quoted you. You said "Average American Joe". If thats not a finger pointing at America, what is?

Message edited by author 2005-08-21 21:58:52.

Olyuzi

Panasonic Lumix DMC-GX7

08/21/2005 09:58:19 PM · #95

What makes you think life for women have improved under the Northern Alliance in Afghanistan? They are equally fundamentalist and criminal as the Taliban were.

Also, if you believe so much that our fate has already been sealed by a divinity, then why send your son to fight in Iraq? What difference would it make if god has already decided on the fate of the world?

Originally posted by CalliopeKel:

Liberty and Freedom (for afganistanians, and Iraqis) is not Absolutely Nothing. It's really not your job to 'save us' or enlighten us, although the sentiment is galliant.

Lest we forget. Women were not allowed to work, teach or walk around with their faces exposed. They were methodically beaten 'on a talibans whim and at their discretion'. Unmarked mass graves of the Shiites, torchure, rape and generalized horrors are coming to an end.

For Nothing? Maybe you should seek assignment there and talk to the locals about how they feel about the fall of Saddam and the Taliban.

Americans Care. We ended Taliban rule. Our sons died. Not in Vain. If you feel it was vain, that is your opinion. Your entitled to it. But don't generalize your comments that its all a waste of time and lives.

Sigma 15mm f/2.8 EX Diagonal Fisheye for Nikon

08/21/2005 10:07:36 PM · #96

I am not sending my son, he opts for himself. He is 18.
How do you know this is not his destiny?

'Man plans his way, but God directs his path.'

Perhaps my son is part of the fate of the world through the military??

He may just end up sitting at a desk somewhere in South Carolina typing to this thread for years. HA!

I am not going to argue my faith, because those without it only see it as a point of quarrel. You guys can keep on attacking my faith, but I have been very kind in dealing with your belief system. I would appreciate a little in return.

Sincerly

Kelly

muckpond

Nikon D200

08/21/2005 10:07:38 PM · #97

Originally posted by Riggs:

If you have cable be you will be able to watch. Its available to anyone with cable !

thanks for the tip! i've set the tivo for the later showing (can't let anything get in the way of my "family guy" lol). looks very interesting.

i wish that were true about ALL cable channels. my company recently moved the game show network to the "digital" cable (which i refuse to pay for) and that was just about the time they started showing reruns of the amazing race. *weep*

Olyuzi

Panasonic Lumix DMC-GX7

Panasonic Lumix G 14mm F2.5 ASPH

08/21/2005 10:37:54 PM · #98

This sounds much different than what you said before about a divinity having already sealed man's fate. It now sounds as if you're saying that man has choice. If this is so, then why does your son's fate have to be manifested in an unjust and offensive war perpetrated by the Bush administration? His fate can equally take the course of a healthy man who works for peace and justice. A man or woman who has seen war first hand, has seen death and destruction, is never the same, never again healthy. Do you want your son to fight in Iraq? Do you feel it's a just war? Why don't you speak to the mothers who have camped out in Crawford Texas and get their opinions about matters? I'm sure they would love to talk with you.

Originally posted by CalliopeKel: