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07/21/2005 03:12:37 AM · #26 |
| Bill asked why Primates exibited this behavior, and Robert gave his theory as to their possible motivations might be, I didn't see it as an attack on your son's photographs Tim. Of course I am not always as sensitive as some think I should be. There was a hilarious photo essay in last month's "Apature" on Central American and Mexican insane asylums, the poverty, the hopless despiration, all there in rich black and white. of course evidence of the degradation of others is one of the few things that can really make me feel good about myself. Darn good work, I wish I could remember who did it. No poop though so not as funny. |
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07/21/2005 04:16:10 AM · #27 |
Just some interesting factsâ€Â¦
Coprophagia might not be natural among apes (this behavior has not been well researched) but for some animals it’s very important.
Foals and young elephants eat the fresh manure of their mothers which gives them a natural introduction of normal bacteria into the stomach, which they need for normal digestion.
These bacteria stimulate the immune system to set up a defense against common pathogens. There is also a theory that Coprophagia aids to establish a bond between mother and baby.
But when you see this in adult Horses and Elephants, they may be suffering from dietary imbalances, boredom and lack of exercise.
Rabbits have a digestive system designed for coprophagia.
Btw â€Â¦ Bedouins has recommended the digesting of fresh camel feces as a remedy for bacterial dysentery. Which lead to the discovery of the antibiotic enzyme “Bacillus subtilis” in the camel poop.
Bacillus subtilis are able to activate nearly all systems of the human immune defense. Bacillus subtilis is still used widely today in several countries, where “all-natural” therapeutic products are more sought after than synthetic drugs.
Maybe you eat it too :p
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07/21/2005 05:13:23 AM · #28 |
| Dian Fossey and Jane Goodall both wrote that they observed primates engaging in coprophagy in the wild. I don't recall either of them commenting about it relating to the primates' "shattered mental health". More likely is that, because some primates are herbivores and only opportunistic carnivores, they obtain essential nutrients found in feces. Some nutrients, formed only after digestion, cannot be absorbed through the colon. As humans, we take vitamins and supplements...animals engage in coprophagy. |
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07/21/2005 12:20:54 PM · #29 |
.
To me it is not a matter of whether it is natural for apes to eat shit or not. It is a matter of giving the animals a little privacy so that if even if they do choose to eat shit there is not a crowd of gawkers watching and laughing at them. Poor things can't even shit in peace.
Zoos suck.
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07/21/2005 01:38:45 PM · #30 |
Originally posted by keegbow:
I was laughing so much I was unable to take shots but Zemm didn't miss the chance, not so my other younger son and wife they were nearly sick.
A good day was had by all. |
Hey, you set yourself up man. You post something controversial and make light of it what do you expect? Let's all move on to something more appealing. |
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07/21/2005 02:11:48 PM · #31 |
Originally posted by bear_music:
Coprophagia, playing with excrement, is considered to be an abnormal behavior and is commonly exhibited by both Gorillas and Chimpanzees in captivity. It is not cute, it is not funny, it's positively sad. One of the great crimes we commit as humans, IMO, is the keeping in captivity of apes, which are highly intelligent, independent creatures that do not do well at all when confined. Of course, some zoos and animal parks do a far better job at this than others, but there are untold thousands of chimpanzees, especially, cooped up in tiny cages in research institutions and marginal zoos, and kept by "trainers" (who can only train and control them with force) for use in movies and commercials, for which they (the trainers) are very handsomely reimbursed.
Sorry to be a wet blanket. But I think it's a scandal. This creature is not a "well animal".
Robt.
Edit to add, re the thread title: these are apes, not monkeys. Monkeys have tails. These animals are very closely related to us, and are much more intelligent than monkeys. |
I must admit, visting the zoo for the first time in years, I felt very depressed when watching the gorillas at London zoo all their absolute best to avoid looking at the crowd of screaming children. I understood the five year olds' excitement, but could not understand their supervisors allowing them to scream and bellow at the gorillas. All the gorillas turned their back on the outside world, and moved in such a way that it was impossible to see their eyes (made taking a photo v hard - I know, not that sympathietic of me, but there was a challenge...). V sad.
I was pleased to see in the news that their habitats are due to be redeveloped, with visitors only having access via limited walkways to their enclosure, and the gorillas having some privacy (though encouraged to be seen by the lure of "heated rocks"!). Not perfect, but hopefully an improvement. |
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07/21/2005 02:32:01 PM · #32 |
Originally posted by legalbeagle:
I must admit, visting the zoo for the first time in years, I felt very depressed. |
Yes.. I felt the same.. Very close to tears.. I have not been to the zoo in many years Because I don't want to support this..
In the wild, large cats roam for miles each day hunting for food... They lead a pretty solitary existence... Elephants roam up to 25 miles a day foraging for food and water.
How can these animals be happy living on usually a lot less than one acre for the rest of their lives??
Very sad indeed... |
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07/21/2005 02:52:55 PM · #33 |
Originally posted by Sonda:
How can these animals be happy living on usually a lot less than one acre for the rest of their lives??
Very sad indeed... |
In most cases these animals were bred in captivity and so this is the only world they have known. Yes, this is a terrible thing but would you rather they be in the wild where they will be killed or orphaned at a very young age? There are some pretty horrid zoos but there are also a lot of zoos who care very well for their animals and if it wasnt for them and the SSP these animals would likely be extinct.
If you have issues with the fact that animals live in zoos then do something about the problems that are causing them to end up there. The bushmeat trade certainly deserves your anger more than zoos.
If you dont like pictures of animals in zoos then may I suggest Karl Ammann's website. Be sure to click on the graphic, hard-hitting images. These are real photographs taken in the animal's natural habit. Then come back here and tell me those animals are living happy lives.
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07/21/2005 02:59:13 PM · #34 |
Originally posted by moodville:
Then come back here and tell me those animals are living happy lives. In most cases these animals were bred in captivity and so this is the only world they have known. |
I do not measure what is worse.
Yes, it is the only world they have known.. but their bodies were made to roam over huge areas.. I do not suggest to release them.. I do not have the solution..
Message edited by author 2005-07-21 15:05:28. |
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07/21/2005 03:04:00 PM · #35 |
Funny, might be! It might be something natural for apes.
Even babies have their "anal phase".
edit: just forgot to add......I don't find it funny that they do it, it's just a "little" funny cz it's something I'm not used to see (first thing that happens is a big laugh). I think that most of us are not used to see it!
Message edited by author 2005-07-21 15:09:01. |
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07/21/2005 03:05:47 PM · #36 |
| zoos are the devil, poachers are the devil; and between the two, I'd probably rather be shot at then snapped with a NIkon p and s held by Maude and Ralph from Columbus, OH... |
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07/21/2005 03:13:48 PM · #37 |
There are some wonderful zoos in this area, ones where you can actually see and feel the care and concern with which the animals are treated. Some have extensive grounds, and their habitats are as close to their "natural" ones (even though like moodville said, most have never even SEEN their "natural" habitats) as possible. I get much more upset at the people standing around and taunting the animals, teasing them and throwing things at the cages/enclosures. I support the local zoos in my area because I want my grandchildren to be able to see the beauty of these creatures in a humane and loving environment.
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07/21/2005 04:07:19 PM · #38 |
Originally posted by laurielblack:
I want my grandchildren to be able to see the beauty of these creatures |
I am pretty sure that zoos are not bad for some animals - just feel particularly bad for the animals with higher intellectual capacity - I should imagine that they become mentally unstable more easily. But I don't wish to over-anthropomorphise, and I agree with this part of laurielblack's statement in particular - zoos do have a benefit, and hence me being pleased to see improvements within existing zoos. I would campaign for better zoos before the closure of zoos, I think. |
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07/21/2005 04:56:48 PM · #39 |
I watch the Discovery and National Geographic channels quite often. In the wild the survival rate of most animals is really really low. If I'm an animal, life in a zoo isn't all that bad. they feed me, take care of me, and encourage me to have sex.
Also, are the anti-zoo people also anti-pet? Putting a tiger behind a cage can't be as degrading as someone making their dog get them their slippers and beating them for pissing on the carpet. After all, dogs and cats are nothing more then wild animals inbreed and domesticated for our own selfish purposes.
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07/21/2005 05:09:04 PM · #40 |
Originally posted by louddog:
I watch the Discovery and National Geographic channels quite often. In the wild the survival rate of most animals is really really low. If I'm an animal, life in a zoo isn't all that bad. they feed me, take care of me, and encourage me to have sex.
Also, are the anti-zoo people also anti-pet? Putting a tiger behind a cage can't be as degrading as someone making their dog get them their slippers and beating them for pissing on the carpet. After all, dogs and cats are nothing more then wild animals inbreed and domesticated for our own selfish purposes. |
That goes a little against "gender non-specific" animal rights don't you think? Get in there and mate... you don't want to? why not, thats a perfectly good looking Tapir! Get-r- done. Meanwhile, it may not be a straight animal all the while. Its just too bad. Get-r-done. |
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07/21/2005 05:19:09 PM · #41 |
Originally posted by laurielblack:
There are some wonderful zoos in this area, ones where you can actually see and feel the care and concern with which the animals are treated. Some have extensive grounds, and their habitats are as close to their "natural" ones (even though like moodville said, most have never even SEEN their "natural" habitats) as possible. I get much more upset at the people standing around and taunting the animals, teasing them and throwing things at the cages/enclosures. I support the local zoos in my area because I want my grandchildren to be able to see the beauty of these creatures in a humane and loving environment. |
I am a San Deogo native, and we've long been famous for our zoo and wild animal park, which are in the forefront of endangeredd species preservation etc. I am 100% in favor of zoos (good zoos) for the reasons Laurie says. If we do not have them, our shildren and their children will lose all sense of the diversity of what the earth supports.
My only problem here was with the laughter; the idea that this copraphilia, that defecation etc, are amusing. It seems degrading to me.
But I'm a wet bkanket, a grumpy old man. It's been stated and I can't disprove it.
Robt.
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07/21/2005 05:23:17 PM · #42 |
Originally posted by Sonda:
In the wild, large cats roam for miles each day hunting for food... They lead a pretty solitary existence... Elephants roam up to 25 miles a day foraging for food and water.
How can these animals be happy living on usually a lot less than one acre for the rest of their lives?? |
Horses in the wild or in large pasture would move about that much a day also. It's a challenge for those living where acreage is dear to keep things as normal as possible for their charges. As [another] aside, sometimes adult horses commit coprophagy because something about a particular horse's fresh, steaming, hot road apples are irresistable--I own a horse that would rip the reins out of my hands only to get to his amour's fresh um, cookies. Nobody else's.
Count me wishing for better zoo environments rather than no zoos.
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07/21/2005 05:28:27 PM · #43 |
Originally posted by Sonda:
Originally posted by legalbeagle:
I must admit, visting the zoo for the first time in years, I felt very depressed. |
Yes.. I felt the same.. Very close to tears.. I have not been to the zoo in many years Because I don't want to support this..
In the wild, large cats roam for miles each day hunting for food... They lead a pretty solitary existence... Elephants roam up to 25 miles a day foraging for food and water.
How can these animals be happy living on usually a lot less than one acre for the rest of their lives??
Very sad indeed... |
Not to throw fuel on the fire, but those animals do it because the have to. If they had a choice, they wouldn't. Hate to say it, but just like people, animals are inherently lazy. And no, I'm not anthropomorphizing. when something - animal or human - is well fed and watered, their survival needs are taken care of. they can then spend their time, sleeping, grooming, and hunting for a mate. If they have to spend all their time going 25 miles here and there for food, they don't have time for the rest and eventually weaken from disease or fatigue, not to mention starvation and dehydration, and die.
You all are over thinking this. You're romanticising 'freedom.' Lets see how long you wish to remain 'free' when you have no clue where you are going to get your next meal. Or if you will live to get even think about a next meal. Been there done that. Sucks for people, sucks for animals.
my .02
d
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07/21/2005 05:39:45 PM · #44 |
Originally posted by bear_music:
But I'm a wet bkanket, a grumpy old man. It's been stated and I can't disprove it.
Robt. |
Hey dude, don't feel bad about that, you're not a grumpy old man, you've always been a voice of reason and level headed in the forums. I agree with you about those pics and I'm not old (well 33 might sound old for some).
I'm not an animal activist either. Hey I'm french I eat most of them :) but I didn't think the pics were funny... I can understand how a kid would find it funny, but once you're past the toilet humour stage, it's just not funny anymore imo |
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07/21/2005 05:40:50 PM · #45 |
My only problem here was with the laughter; the idea that this copraphilia, that defecation etc, are amusing. It seems degrading to me.
But I'm a wet bkanket, a grumpy old man. It's been stated and I can't disprove it.
Robt. [/quote]text-Bear Music
Me too..though I am not so old..my 6yr old didn't find it funny at all..I said nothing..he said it is "gross". I have no problem with the shot, and am happy to see the discussion that has come from it.
Message edited by author 2005-07-21 17:42:23. |
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07/21/2005 05:49:54 PM · #46 |
Originally posted by sher9204:
Dian Fossey and Jane Goodall both wrote that they observed primates engaging in coprophagy in the wild. I don't recall either of them commenting about it relating to the primates' "shattered mental health". |
game.point.match? |
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07/21/2005 06:04:45 PM · #47 |
Originally posted by GoldBerry:
Originally posted by sher9204:
Dian Fossey and Jane Goodall both wrote that they observed primates engaging in coprophagy in the wild. I don't recall either of them commenting about it relating to the primates' "shattered mental health". |
game.point.match? |
what do you mean? |
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07/21/2005 06:34:54 PM · #48 |
Originally posted by bucket:
My only problem here was with the laughter; the idea that this copraphilia, that defecation etc, are amusing. It seems degrading to me.
But I'm a wet bkanket, a grumpy old man. It's been stated and I can't disprove it.
Robt. |
text-Bear Music
Me too..though I am not so old..my 6yr old didn't find it funny at all..I said nothing..he said it is "gross". I have no problem with the shot, and am happy to see the discussion that has come from it. [/quote]
As I originally stated my laughter was at the way the chimp carried the poo poo around and sniffed it and tried to make other chimps smell it I never saw any faeces being digested and never stated that I did.
Believe me it was funny as all who saw would agree,I guess you had to be there.
I was not aware that this was abnormal behaviour and I thank Rob for his enlightenment on the subject. |
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07/21/2005 09:16:31 PM · #49 |
Originally posted by dahkota:
Hate to say it, but just like people, animals are inherently lazy. And no, I'm not anthropomorphizing. when something - animal or human - is well fed and watered, their survival needs are taken care of. they can then spend their time, sleeping, grooming, and hunting for a mate. If they have to spend all their time going 25 miles here and there for food, they don't have time for the rest and eventually weaken from disease or fatigue, not to mention starvation and dehydration, and die.
You all are over thinking this. You're romanticising 'freedom.' Lets see how long you wish to remain 'free' when you have no clue where you are going to get your next meal. Or if you will live to get even think about a next meal. Been there done that. Sucks for people, sucks for animals.
d |
Bullshit. Most animals are not inherently lazy. In the wild these animals have lived for milleniums without the help of our cages. Yes some die at an early age, that is part of the natural process, but most live out there lives the way they were supossed to. Sucks for people? I'd rather be dropped in a jungle to fend for myself and take my chances then spend the rest of my life in Gitmo or Attica where I would have my "needs are taken care of".
I work relocating wild animals. You can see the difference in thier eyes between when they are caged and when they are free.
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07/21/2005 09:33:01 PM · #50 |
| OMG and I haven't eaten dinner yet!! |
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