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06/18/2005 09:40:03 PM · #51 |
Originally posted by w24x192:
Is it possible to elminate the shutter from a digital camera by turning the sensor 'on' and 'off' to capture an image? This would be instead of having the sensor always 'on' and controling the exposure length with a shutter. It would yeild a 'perfect' shutter, if possible, in that all of the sensor would be 'exposed' for the same time duration. |
I think the tiny differences in warm-up time for the individual picture elements would lead to increased noise. As it is, I'd think they are all at operating temperature when the light's allowed to fall on them. There would be increased differences at different "speeds" as well.
As it is, any difference in exposure caused by the shutter shape can be compensated-for, since it will occur in a regular, known pattern. |
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06/18/2005 10:04:39 PM · #52 |
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
At shutter speeds faster than they sync speed, the shutter is not completely open when the flash fires and a portion of the shot will be dark. Basically, the rear curtain of the flash starts to close before the front curtain is completely across the frame. |
Maybe a future update to the digital SLR cameras will be the removal of the shutter. Lots of cosumer digital cameras don't have shutters now. It's some sort of sensor on/off setup. The removal of the shutter in favor of this method would probably be a good thing in the long run.
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06/19/2005 01:29:01 AM · #53 |
Originally posted by jmsetzler:
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
At shutter speeds faster than they sync speed, the shutter is not completely open when the flash fires and a portion of the shot will be dark. Basically, the rear curtain of the flash starts to close before the front curtain is completely across the frame. |
Maybe a future update to the digital SLR cameras will be the removal of the shutter. Lots of cosumer digital cameras don't have shutters now. It's some sort of sensor on/off setup. The removal of the shutter in favor of this method would probably be a good thing in the long run. |
Actually, I believe that most consumer cameras use a typical leaf shutter that is inside the lens. These shutters, by design, will sync at any speed. They are also very quiet. Their disadvantage is in the fact that the need to be located inside the lens and their max speed is somewhere in the 1/500 range. If you think "L" lenses are expensive now, imagine how much they would cost if the shutter had to be included as well. Another disadvantage would be losing that ability to shoot with the camera using a telescope, microscope or other optical device that does not have an integral shutter.
Most medium format SLR film cameras have leaf shutters in their lenses. Some have focal plane shutters as well and the photographer can choose.
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06/19/2005 01:48:02 AM · #54 |
Originally posted by coolhar:
Originally posted by doctornick:
Flash sync speed on-camera is really a non issue, using the 580EX or 550EX flash and setting the Flash unit to High Speed Sync you can use the flash with ANY Shutter speed... |
I have shot some with the 580 using High Speed sync but didn't think the results were as good as when shooting at 250 or less. Admittedly I need more experience to get the most out of the 580, but my initial feeling was that High Speed Sync was limiting.
Originally posted by spazmo99:
Shutter sync speed is all about the shutter's ability to be completely open during the flash. Has nothing to do with the film/sensor the image is being recorded on.
When a shutter speed is set at a speed at or below the sync speed, the shutter is completely open when the flash fires.
At shutter speeds faster than they sync speed, the shutter is not completely open when the flash fires and a portion of the shot will be dark. Basically, the rear curtain of the flash starts to close before the front curtain is completely across the frame. |
So to get a higher flash sync speed Canon would have to use a better grade of shutter. Am I understanding this correctly? |
I have gotten very good results with my 420EX and HS sync.
Essentially, to increase the sync speed with the focal plane shutter Canon would have to increase the speed of the shutter curtains. For a 24mmx36mm frame, a shutter sync speed of 1/500 s would require an average curtain speed of just over 40mph.
For a small, relatively delicate assembly to accelerate to that speed and decelerate to a stop over such a small distance is pretty amazing. To do so reliably and consistently over tens of thousands of actuations is nothing short of incredible. The guaranteed number of shutter actuations is another reason why the 1 series cameras are more expensive. The 1 series camera shutters are rated for 100,000 or more actuations. The consumer cameras like the 300D, 10D, 20D are rated for 10-20,000 actuations.
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06/19/2005 08:18:45 AM · #55 |
| Wow, many people have very little knowledge/understanding of how digital cameras work.. |
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06/19/2005 09:42:24 AM · #56 |
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
... The 1 series camera shutters are rated for 100,000 or more actuations. The consumer cameras like the 300D, 10D, 20D are rated for 10-20,000 actuations. |
The 1D II shutter life is rated at 200,000 actuations |
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06/19/2005 11:34:32 AM · #57 |
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
... The guaranteed number of shutter actuations is another reason why the 1 series cameras are more expensive. The 1 series camera shutters are rated for 100,000 or more actuations. The consumer cameras like the 300D, 10D, 20D are rated for 10-20,000 actuations. |
How would you know if your cameras shutter was starting to wear out? Are there any symtoms, or tell tale signs? or does it just quit working? I am approaching 30,000 on my 20D.
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06/19/2005 01:23:50 PM · #58 |
Originally posted by w24x192:
Is it possible to elminate the shutter from a digital camera by turning the sensor 'on' and 'off' to capture an image? This would be instead of having the sensor always 'on' and controling the exposure length with a shutter. It would yeild a 'perfect' shutter, if possible, in that all of the sensor would be 'exposed' for the same time duration. |
The non-dlsr digital cameras have no shutters - they just turn teh recording of the sensor iage on and off - it is how they get teh live preview image on teh LCD or EVF. It is also why some of them can have insanely high shutter speeds - a Fuji S602 has a mas shutter of 1/10,000 sec!
As for hish Speed Sync Flash - a flash has X amount of power. You can have one big blast (and a slow-ish shutter speed) or many many small blasts and a fast shutter speed. The GN rating will drop significantly with hish speed sync enabled.
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06/19/2005 01:25:49 PM · #59 |
Originally posted by coolhar:
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
... The guaranteed number of shutter actuations is another reason why the 1 series cameras are more expensive. The 1 series camera shutters are rated for 100,000 or more actuations. The consumer cameras like the 300D, 10D, 20D are rated for 10-20,000 actuations. |
How would you know if your cameras shutter was starting to wear out? Are there any symtoms, or tell tale signs? or does it just quit working? I am approaching 30,000 on my 20D. |
usually they jam - as in quit working. Shoucl be the shutter, mirror flip up mechanism, etc - any thing in that chain of events will cause the whole ball of wax to stop. Is it wearing out, dirt, or some combination? Who knows. It can be repaired/replaced - $200-$250 is what i think i read on a post someplace.
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06/19/2005 01:37:30 PM · #60 |
Am I the only one that ponders this...
For most of us our car's are our most expensive personal possessions (or toys). Anyone with an interest can find out when just about every model is due to be replaced. Between the car magazines and spy photos etc., it's easy to avoid dropping good money on a lame duck model.
For many of us photography is our next most expensive set of toys. Yet not a peep on when models are being replaced. The photo magazines totally ignore the subject, as if they are afraid to piss off the manufacturers - and risk being blacklisted. The web sites seem no better. I know that we arent going to see spy photos of new cameras out for testing, but I can't believe that this info doesn't leak out or become available from former or even current manufactuerer employees.
So unlike cars we all risk paying full price for a model that gets replaced the following week. Good for the manufacturers, bad for us.
Come on photo magazines... show some resolve |
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06/19/2005 01:44:42 PM · #61 |
Originally posted by photodude:
Am I the only one that ponders this...
For most of us our car's are our most expensive personal possessions (or toys). Anyone with an interest can find out when just about every model is due to be replaced. Between the car magazines and spy photos etc., it's easy to avoid dropping good money on a lame duck model.
For many of us photography is our next most expensive set of toys. Yet not a peep on when models are being replaced. The photo magazines totally ignore the subject, as if they are afraid to piss off the manufacturers - and risk being blacklisted. The web sites seem no better. I know that we arent going to see spy photos of new cameras out for testing, but I can't believe that this info doesn't leak out or become available from former or even current manufactuerer employees.
So unlike cars we all risk paying full price for a model that gets replaced the following week. Good for the manufacturers, bad for us.
Come on photo magazines... show some resolve |
well that depends, first cars are a much more popular "thning" so more interest means more "news" as for photography... well there is Photokina which generally lets us know the deal for the next 12months or so...that's the deal with consumer electronics.
Now add to this the unrelentless assault from Canon onto Nikon and you have all the reasons for keeping things secret... if you follow the "pro" news: Canon held the 1DsMkII back for close to 9 months because it wanted Nikon to set the bar money/tech wise... when it came out..everybody said... "wow 12MP's " 3DAYS later Canon Announces the 1DsMkII. |
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06/19/2005 01:52:14 PM · #62 |
My point exactly, if Canon held back for 9 months that means that at least dozens of employees in Lake Success and probably hundreds world wide know all about it yet, not a peep in the photo press.
There is now way that was kept an absolute secret, just that the mainstream photo press prints what they are told they can print. I don't blame Canon, but the press/magazines have no cahunas
Also, I'm sure that Ford, GM, Toyota, Nissan, Honda go just as hard at each other as Canon and Nikon |
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06/19/2005 01:56:12 PM · #63 |
Originally posted by photodude:
My point exactly, if Canon held back for 9 months that means that at least dozens of employees in Lake Success and probably hundreds world wide know all about it yet, not a peep in the photo press.
There is now way that was kept an absolute secret, just that the mainstream photo press prints what they are told they can print. I don't blame Canon, but the press/magazines have no cahunas
Also, I'm sure that Ford, GM, Toyota, Nissan, Honda go just as hard at each other as Canon and Nikon |
you may be right about car companies...but the field is more even as oposed to only two camera leaders in the SLR world... Canon really wants to destroy Nikon. I think Canon ca keep some secrets, the news of a HIGH MP camera was long in the air...but no one know how many MP or what the price point was...and then they annouced the 1DMkII, which probably helped Nikon set their price and assumed that they (nikon) could clench a chunk of the studio business because of their 12MP body.... that was a short celebration! |
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06/19/2005 01:56:14 PM · #64 |
| whats current and available now "is whats current and available now". Whats being designed and designated as the new model to replace the current model in the future is just that. Its not whats available now, its whats intended to replace whats available now in the future. GEEZ! |
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06/19/2005 01:58:04 PM · #65 |
Originally posted by gusto:
whats current and available now "is whats current and available now". Whats being designed and designated as the new model to replace the current model in the future is just that. Its not whats available now, its whats intended to replace whats available now in the future. GEEZ! |
aside from sayz "geez" what is your point? we are talking about the lack of future references in the trades. |
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06/19/2005 02:31:12 PM · #66 |
Unlike in the automobile industry, there really isn't enough competition in the field of camera manufacture for any of the traditional market factors to come into play. And the consumer is the loser.
Message edited by author 2005-06-19 14:32:29.
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06/19/2005 02:32:48 PM · #67 |
Originally posted by coolhar:
Unlike in automobile inddustry, there really isn't enough competition in field of camera manufacture for any of the traditional market factors to come into play. And the consumer is the loser. |
yep, even more so further up the production pyramid. the 350XT is a good example, as it came with no warning...which was to the detriment of the people whom had bought 300d's in the previous few months. |
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06/19/2005 02:35:30 PM · #68 |
exactly...
and with all due respect to the pro's and ultra avid amateurs who buy 1D's, these are very low volume units. Canon and the other manufacturers gather their camera revenues and profits from point and shoots and amateur SLR's. |
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06/19/2005 03:07:09 PM · #69 |
Originally posted by photodude:
and with all due respect to the pro's and ultra avid amateurs who buy 1D's, these are very low volume units. Canon and the other manufacturers gather their camera revenues and profits from point and shoots and amateur SLR's. |
According to DPReview, production numbers for the 1D were 3,000 per month upon release. Don't underestimate how many pro cameras are sold.
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06/19/2005 03:20:21 PM · #70 |
| The 1D is to Canon what the GT is to Ford. Its a platform to develop advanced technology (and actually recoupe some of the cost), which will eventually find it's way into some of the high volume stuff. It's also a brand image item. Let's face it, those of us with amateur and prosumer stuff - feel good when we see a pro with the white glass (hey, we're in the club). |
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